The redemptive power of a national championship

[brewcity77]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

This should not have been a surprise to Wally. If this was always a possibility, that should have been made clear enough long ago. Yet I'll admit I hesitate to believe a candid, frank discussion about this was held while his brother was in the process of obliterating our freshman record book.

I'm not against all cuts, but the timing and circumstance around this one stunk to me. You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

[MUfan12]

You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

For a guy with an opinion, you seem pretty confident that you know exactly what was said and how everything went down.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

This should not have been a surprise to Wally. If this was always a possibility, that should have been made clear enough long ago. Yet I'll admit I hesitate to believe a candid, frank discussion about this was held while his brother was in the process of obliterating our freshman record book.

I'm not against all cuts, but the timing and circumstance around this one stunk to me. You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

Do you think there was a candid, frank discussion about Jamal Ferguson getting cut if he didn't get better?  Do you think the timing and circumstance was any better for Yous Mbao? Do you think Scott Christopherson wasn't surprised when he was Buzz cut? Do you think that these things are any less true for the vast majority of cut players? Why does Wally deserve special treatment? Hell, Wally did get special treatment, he got a track scholarship so he could get his degree without transferring.

We all agree we need another PF. I know the addition more people have had is with Katin Reinhardt. Make no mistake, Reinhardt was coming here whether or not they cut Wally. So would it have been more fair for Sacar Anim to get cut? Would there have been less qualms about that? Because that is what would have happened. Anim who is a better player than Wally getting cut because Wally has a famous brother who isn't even on the team anymore? I just don't understand the logic.

The funny thing is, the conflict between Wojo and the Ellensons wasn't even about the scholarship. The conflict was over playing time. The Ellensons thought he would slide into Henry's spot as the starting PF next season. Wojo told them that he was going to slide to the back of the rotation and get walk on minutes. The scholarship was a secondary issue.

As I am writing this, I thought of a difference between Wally and the other cut players from our past. Players like Jamal Ferguson were brought in with the potential for developing into a quality player. When they don't fulfill that potential, they are cut. Wally was brought in with potential for developing into a quality player and the potential for attracting Henry to Marquette. So while he didn't fulfill his potential to develop, he did fulfill his potential to attract his brother to Marquette. Is that why people are feeling guilty? Because they feel like Wally held up his end of the bargain?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

For a guy with an opinion, you seem pretty confident that you know exactly what was said and how everything went down.

I think Brew does have a good understanding of everything that went down. He is just uncomfortable with how it went down. Which is fine. We are all entitled to our opinions on our alma mater. I personally don't understand the logic...of course Logic was my one C at Marquette so da hell do I know?

[brewcity77]

Long post alert. I'm really perfectly ready to let this conversation go. I get that many of us disagree on how this was handled. Well...at the very least a few of us aren't fans of it. But the can of worms is open, so I'll respond, but only to clarify why I feel the way I do about this.

Do you think there was a candid, frank discussion about Jamal Ferguson getting cut if he didn't get better?

If not there absolutely should have been.

Do you think the timing and circumstance was any better for Yous Mbao?

Yes, because he was early enough in his career that he could still transfer without any problem. I am optimistic that Wally can graduate this summer and still latch on somewhere, but he should have been aware of this situation months ago so that it wouldn't be an issue now.

Do you think Scott Christopherson wasn't surprised when he was Buzz cut?

Christopherson was a completely different situation because of the coaching change. However, to the greater point of guys being surprised when they are told to pack their bags, I don't think it should come as a complete surprise. If you're making the move of cutting someone, you've been thinking about it for a long time. For a guy like Wojo, who the stories say was told by Coach K that he needed to do X, Y, and Z to become a contributing member of the team, that should resonate even more. These guys should be aware at every step where they stand and if they are on the chopping block, they should definitely be aware of where they are, why, and what it would take (or if there's nothing possible) to change that.

Do you think that these things are any less true for the vast majority of cut players? Why does Wally deserve special treatment?

I don't think he does. But I don't think anyone should be surprised when they are cut. The only exception would be a coaching change, where you know the dominoes may shuffle, and honestly, I think any incoming coach should have the integrity to give any of the on-roster players at least one year to see what he has. I'm not a fan of the Christopherson running-off either.

Part of my issue with this is also that if Wally is being completely blindsided by this, have the other players who are close to the fringe been given this talk? So many seem keen to toss Cohen and Anim out the door if we could land someone better. I'm not that guy, but I do feel that if those are indeed the two closest to the cut line, Wojo should have been having these discussions for the past few months and they should be fully aware where they stand and what they need to do to improve that standing. Honestly, even if guys aren't close to the line, they should still be getting those "where you are and where you need to be" talks on a regular basis.

Hell, Wally did get special treatment, he got a track scholarship so he could get his degree without transferring.

Again, I take more issue with him being a transfer senior because it is not just pulling his scholarship but ending his career prematurely. I hope he can graduate and transfer, but while that will be better than the current situation, it won't undo the way this was handled.

We all agree we need another PF. I know the addition more people have had is with Katin Reinhardt. Make no mistake, Reinhardt was coming here whether or not they cut Wally. So would it have been more fair for Sacar Anim to get cut? Would there have been less qualms about that? Because that is what would have happened. Anim who is a better player than Wally getting cut because Wally has a famous brother who isn't even on the team anymore? I just don't understand the logic.

The entire roster and scholarship situation is Wojo's doing. Us not having a PF on the roster is Wojo's doing. Us not having room for Reinhardt is Wojo's doing. Maybe he should have put more effort into landing Kyle Washington or Austin Nichols if PF was such a pressing need. Putting together a roster that makes sense going forward is the coach's job. If we have this need for a PF, whose fault is that? Certainly not Wally's, who helped bring in the best PF in Marquette history. As far as Anim, while I understand him growing and developing, he played just over half Wally's minutes in just over half Wally's games last year. Is he better right now?

I know you really like Reinhardt's game, but I feel he's a less than necessary piece. Okay...I get him if we are in "must win now" mode, but with Johnson, Wilson, Rowsey, and Cheatham we are not short of guys that can play the 2/3 role, especially with Anim, Cohen, and Hauser waiting in the wings. He was a luxury item at a position where we don't have a pressing need.

The funny thing is, the conflict between Wojo and the Ellensons wasn't even about the scholarship. The conflict was over playing time. The Ellensons thought he would slide into Henry's spot as the starting PF next season. Wojo told them that he was going to slide to the back of the rotation and get walk on minutes. The scholarship was a secondary issue.

Again, these are discussions that should be had continually. That said, Wally did play 8.8 mpg last year and minutes opened at the position he played most frequently. He shouldn't have been handed a starting spot, but based on our current roster, he should have had the chance to compete. And if it was a shock, he should have known why and what he needed to improve a long time ago.

As I am writing this, I thought of a difference between Wally and the other cut players from our past. Players like Jamal Ferguson were brought in with the potential for developing into a quality player. When they don't fulfill that potential, they are cut. Wally was brought in with potential for developing into a quality player and the potential for attracting Henry to Marquette. So while he didn't fulfill his potential to develop, he did fulfill his potential to attract his brother to Marquette. Is that why people are feeling guilty? Because they feel like Wally held up his end of the bargain?

That is without a doubt a major part of my feelings. Wally delivered. He did what he was supposed to do. But it's also about the timing. Before Wally was cut, his brother declared for the draft and we added Reinhardt. So the PF need was already there and the scholarship situation was already full. Someone was getting cut (as you noted above) and the reason for that is because of the coaching staff's roster management.

I think there are a couple other reasons, at least for me personally. First, I always felt that Wally wasn't just Henry bait. Watching him last year, I saw a high-energy player that could go get boards. Is he a 25 mpg guy? No, but I do think he demonstrated he could contribute at this level. If he's being reduced to walk-on minutes (thinking <5 mpg in <10 games played) then why was he given 8.8 mpg while playing 29 games this past year when more minutes should be available? To keep Henry and his family happy?

And on a strictly personal level, right now I am working with a ton of guys in this age range. 20-22 year old kids that don't have a ton of life experience. So yes, part of this is also me looking at my guys and knowing that for them to improve, I need to have these same candid, open, frank discussions on a regular basis. I'll also admit that may be unfair on my part to project my situation onto this, but the simple reality is that our own life experiences help form our opinions, and that's exactly what I'm looking at when I consider Wally getting cut.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Appreciate the thoughts Brew. I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint now. I still don't agree with everything but that is ok. I am willing to agree to disagree.

Now, how about that redemptive power of a national championship. Where on campus should we build the Kris Jenkins statue?

[brewcity77]

Appreciate the thoughts Brew. I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint now. I still don't agree with everything but that is ok. I am willing to agree to disagree.

Now, how about that redemptive power of a national championship. Where on campus should we build the Kris Jenkins statue?

Disagreement agreed

I say we put the statue in front of the remodeled Grand Avenue. Like Villanova, it'll be just a little bit east of campus.

[Benny B]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

Well duh.... because we wouldn't need a PF.

[MU82]

Long post alert. I'm really perfectly ready to let this conversation go. I get that many of us disagree on how this was handled. Well...at the very least a few of us aren't fans of it. But the can of worms is open, so I'll respond, but only to clarify why I feel the way I do about this.

If not there absolutely should have been.

Yes, because he was early enough in his career that he could still transfer without any problem. I am optimistic that Wally can graduate this summer and still latch on somewhere, but he should have been aware of this situation months ago so that it wouldn't be an issue now.

Christopherson was a completely different situation because of the coaching change. However, to the greater point of guys being surprised when they are told to pack their bags, I don't think it should come as a complete surprise. If you're making the move of cutting someone, you've been thinking about it for a long time. For a guy like Wojo, who the stories say was told by Coach K that he needed to do X, Y, and Z to become a contributing member of the team, that should resonate even more. These guys should be aware at every step where they stand and if they are on the chopping block, they should definitely be aware of where they are, why, and what it would take (or if there's nothing possible) to change that.

I don't think he does. But I don't think anyone should be surprised when they are cut. The only exception would be a coaching change, where you know the dominoes may shuffle, and honestly, I think any incoming coach should have the integrity to give any of the on-roster players at least one year to see what he has. I'm not a fan of the Christopherson running-off either.

Part of my issue with this is also that if Wally is being completely blindsided by this, have the other players who are close to the fringe been given this talk? So many seem keen to toss Cohen and Anim out the door if we could land someone better. I'm not that guy, but I do feel that if those are indeed the two closest to the cut line, Wojo should have been having these discussions for the past few months and they should be fully aware where they stand and what they need to do to improve that standing. Honestly, even if guys aren't close to the line, they should still be getting those "where you are and where you need to be" talks on a regular basis.

Again, I take more issue with him being a transfer senior because it is not just pulling his scholarship but ending his career prematurely. I hope he can graduate and transfer, but while that will be better than the current situation, it won't undo the way this was handled.

The entire roster and scholarship situation is Wojo's doing. Us not having a PF on the roster is Wojo's doing. Us not having room for Reinhardt is Wojo's doing. Maybe he should have put more effort into landing Kyle Washington or Austin Nichols if PF was such a pressing need. Putting together a roster that makes sense going forward is the coach's job. If we have this need for a PF, whose fault is that? Certainly not Wally's, who helped bring in the best PF in Marquette history. As far as Anim, while I understand him growing and developing, he played just over half Wally's minutes in just over half Wally's games last year. Is he better right now?

I know you really like Reinhardt's game, but I feel he's a less than necessary piece. Okay...I get him if we are in "must win now" mode, but with Johnson, Wilson, Rowsey, and Cheatham we are not short of guys that can play the 2/3 role, especially with Anim, Cohen, and Hauser waiting in the wings. He was a luxury item at a position where we don't have a pressing need.

Again, these are discussions that should be had continually. That said, Wally did play 8.8 mpg last year and minutes opened at the position he played most frequently. He shouldn't have been handed a starting spot, but based on our current roster, he should have had the chance to compete. And if it was a shock, he should have known why and what he needed to improve a long time ago.

That is without a doubt a major part of my feelings. Wally delivered. He did what he was supposed to do. But it's also about the timing. Before Wally was cut, his brother declared for the draft and we added Reinhardt. So the PF need was already there and the scholarship situation was already full. Someone was getting cut (as you noted above) and the reason for that is because of the coaching staff's roster management.

I think there are a couple other reasons, at least for me personally. First, I always felt that Wally wasn't just Henry bait. Watching him last year, I saw a high-energy player that could go get boards. Is he a 25 mpg guy? No, but I do think he demonstrated he could contribute at this level. If he's being reduced to walk-on minutes (thinking <5 mpg in <10 games played) then why was he given 8.8 mpg while playing 29 games this past year when more minutes should be available? To keep Henry and his family happy?

And on a strictly personal level, right now I am working with a ton of guys in this age range. 20-22 year old kids that don't have a ton of life experience. So yes, part of this is also me looking at my guys and knowing that for them to improve, I need to have these same candid, open, frank discussions on a regular basis. I'll also admit that may be unfair on my part to project my situation onto this, but the simple reality is that our own life experiences help form our opinions, and that's exactly what I'm looking at when I consider Wally getting cut.

I also like that you shared your rationale for all of your thoughts.

I agree with much of this (not that you asked), and I also respectfully disagree with some of it.

I especially disagree with you casually calling Henry "the best PF in Marquette history," as if there was no debate.

Mr. Lucas would strongly disagree.

But yes, I admit I'm picking nits.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If he doesn't make it this year I'd be done.  Might be willing to let him try for a fourth year but even without Gill we return 4 double digit scorers and have two double digit scoring transfers coming, if we land Gill that's more than enough offense that there's no excuse.

Good Lord 

[Herman Cain]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

This should not have been a surprise to Wally. If this was always a possibility, that should have been made clear enough long ago. Yet I'll admit I hesitate to believe a candid, frank discussion about this was held while his brother was in the process of obliterating our freshman record book.

I'm not against all cuts, but the timing and circumstance around this one stunk to me. You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

Wally was not cut. He had the opportunity to continue playing basketball, however he would have had to pay tuition like any other MU kid does. This is because the NCAA does not allow an athlete on a track scholarship to play basketball and football as a walk on. So Wally had a choice , be a walk on in both track and football. Or  participate in track and field as a scholarship athlete only. 

Bottom line the Ellenson family was too cheap to borrow the  $50,000 or so necessary to fund his last year of basketball at MU as a walk on.

[brewcity77]

Wally was not cut. He had the opportunity to continue playing basketball, however he would have had to pay tuition like any other MU kid does. This is because the NCAA does not allow an athlete on a track scholarship to play basketball and football as a walk on. So Wally had a choice , be a walk on in both track and football. Or  participate in track and field as a scholarship athlete only. 

Bottom line the Ellenson family was too cheap to borrow the  $50,000 or so necessary to fund his last year of basketball at MU as a walk on.

You're free to rationalize it however you like.

[Dawson Rental]

Wally was not cut. He had the opportunity to continue playing basketball, however he would have had to pay tuition like any other MU kid does. This is because the NCAA does not allow an athlete on a track scholarship to play basketball and football as a walk on. So Wally had a choice , be a walk on in both track and football. Or  participate in track and field as a scholarship athlete only. 

Bottom line the Ellenson family was too cheap to borrow the  $50,000 or so necessary to fund his last year of basketball at MU as a walk on.

Oh, and your scoop membership is still free, the mods just need 50k from you as contribution toward expenses....

                      ...unless, of course, the MU fan in NY family is too cheap to go 50 k in debt to support your membership.

[Dawson Rental]

Why does Wally deserve special treatment? Hell, Wally did get special treatment, he got a track scholarship so he could get his degree without transferring.

Admittedly, I'm not a follower of the track program, but I'm very confident that no one else on the track team has the same high NCAA profile as Wally, so i have a difficult time seeing the track scholarship as special treatment.

[Herman Cain]

You're free to rationalize it however you like.

I am not rationalizing it. I just don't see him as being cut. Cut to me means Your not qualified to play D1 basketball at Marquette, which was not the case.

What happened was he just lost a basketball scholarship.  I was told by several people in the athletic department he was welcome to play as a walk on in both sports or just focus on track and be a scholarship athlete.

Bottom line in the eyes of the coaches  he was the 14th best player on the team and only 13 can get a full ride basketball scholarship. Just for the record I am not a big fan of Wojo and his operating procedures and in no way do I endorse his actions.

At the end of the day Wally got a good deal. The deal he wanted no, but a good deal nonetheless. MU degree with no money out of pocket is a damn good thing many kids would love to have, and the chance to spend a year working on his high jumping craft and possibly becoming a pro in that sport.

[brewcity77]

I am not rationalizing it. I just don't see him as being cut. Cut to me means Your not qualified to play D1 basketball at Marquette, which was not the case.

<Sigh>

Again, you're free to rationalize it however you like.

[Loose Cannon]

Calling "Charlie Chan"

[Benny B]

<Sigh>

Again, you're free to rationalize it however you like.

I rationalize it by saying that Marquette didn't cut Wally, NCAA rules cut Wally.

He is unequivocally deserving of a full track scholarship, but - in this situation - the fact that he can't accept the track scholly and walk on is beyond unfair... it's downright ludicrous.

However, overall, I do find the NCAA rule quite fair.  For every Wally that gets screwed by it, it's preventing all of the P5 schools from burying the scholarships of 4 and 5* basketball players in the O-Sports.

There should be an exception to the rule for a guy like Wally... if you can qualify at the Olympic standard in any O-Sport, you should be able to accept an O-Sport scholly & walk-on to the basketball team.

[GGGG]

Are we sure that Wojo would accept Wally as a walk-on even if that were possible?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Are we sure that Wojo would accept Wally as a walk-on even if that were possible?

I believe so

[GGGG]

So then if Gill and Young end up elsewhere, and there is no other options as far as I can tell, would Wally "re-join" the team? 

[MU82]

So then if Gill and Young end up elsewhere, and there is no other options as far as I can tell, would Wally "re-join" the team?

Excellent question.

It would be pretty sad if we ended up with an unused scholly after all of this.

I do remain confident Wojo will fill it with a viable player, however.

[Lennys Tap]

I believe so

So the answer to Sultan's question (Are we sure that Wally would be welcome on the team as a walk on?) is "No".

[Herman Cain]

Are we sure that Wojo would accept Wally as a walk-on even if that were possible?

Yes I was told this by several parties in the athletic department.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So the answer to Sultan's question (Are we sure that Wally would be welcome on the team as a walk on?) is "No".

I may have missed something but I was saying yes to sultans question