The redemptive power of a national championship

[tower912]

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/4/28/11393336/big-east-villanova-national-championship-college-basketball?_ga=1.51291629.578450420.1461936919

Another take that this legitimizes the Big East and its path.   Now, giddyup, Wojo. 

[muwarrior69]

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/4/28/11393336/big-east-villanova-national-championship-college-basketball?_ga=1.51291629.578450420.1461936919

Another take that this legitimizes the Big East and its path.   Now, giddyup, Wojo.

This coming season will tell us what kind of coach we have in Wojo; but I am willing to give him 2 more seasons to see if we are on the right track. Even Jay Wright started out at Nova not making the big dance his first 3 seasons.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/jay-wright-1.html

[Galway Eagle]

This coming season will tell us what kind of coach we have in Wojo; but I am willing to give him 2 more seasons to see if we are on the right track. Even Jay Wright started out at Nova not making the big dance his first 3 seasons.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/jay-wright-1.html

If he doesn't make it this year I'd be done.  Might be willing to let him try for a fourth year but even without Gill we return 4 double digit scorers and have two double digit scoring transfers coming, if we land Gill that's more than enough offense that there's no excuse. 

[brewcity77]

This article really captures my feelings from that night. The past few years of being viewed as the red-headed stepchild of college basketball despite mostly dominating non-con play and putting teams into the Dance was irritating, as were the dismissive comments from (locally) Big 10 fans who instantly felt our league had become a mid-major.

Well...we're a mid-major with more titles than them in the past 15 years, and that's only including our current members. What a bunch of pudwhacks...if the Big 10 should feel lucky that we were willing to play the Gavitt Games against them. They are the ones that need their conference to be legitimized.

[naginiF]

Thanks for sharing the article....

First comment (sort of the only one):
10 schools to 12
Saint Louis University and the University of Dayton should be invited both are like-minded universities.

by Boyee on Apr 28, 2016 | 1:23 PM reply

Which Scooper is trolling SB Nation under the name 'Boyee'?

[GoldenWarrior11]

Thanks for sharing the article....

First comment (sort of the only one):
10 schools to 12
Saint Louis University and the University of Dayton should be invited both are like-minded universities.

by Boyee on Apr 28, 2016 | 1:23 PM reply

Which Scooper is trolling SB Nation under the name 'Boyee'?

He's also poster on the Holy Land of Hoops site.  He's long been an advocate of those two schools.  He's not as bad as another poster who has, for over a year, argued that the best fit for the Big East to elevate their status is... St. Bonaventure.   

[MU82]

If he doesn't make it this year I'd be done.  Might be willing to let him try for a fourth year but even without Gill we return 4 double digit scorers and have two double digit scoring transfers coming, if we land Gill that's more than enough offense that there's no excuse.

Wojo should feel honored that you and muwarrior69 are so "patient" with him.

69 comes right out and shows how Wright did nothing for 3 seasons. It should be noted that Wright also did nothing for his 4 years at Hofstra.

Wright is proof that it takes time to build a program. Either that, or he's a lousy coach.

[Loose Cannon]

If he doesn't make it this year I'd be done.  Might be willing to let him try for a fourth year but even without Gill we return 4 double digit scorers and have two double digit scoring transfers coming, if we land Gill that's more than enough offense that there's no excuse.

 Offense OK......How's the Defense Lookin'?

[GGGG]

If he doesn't make it this year I'd be done.  Might be willing to let him try for a fourth year but even without Gill we return 4 double digit scorers and have two double digit scoring transfers coming, if we land Gill that's more than enough offense that there's no excuse. 

That's nice.  But Wojo will be hear for year four unless next year is a complete disaster.

[Benny B]

So.... do we cheer for Kris Jenkins when he's introduced at the BMO next year?

[Galway Eagle]

Wojo should feel honored that you and muwarrior69 are so "patient" with him.

69 comes right out and shows how Wright did nothing for 3 seasons. It should be noted that Wright also did nothing for his 4 years at Hofstra.

Wright is proof that it takes time to build a program. Either that, or he's a lousy coach.

I'm confused are you saying it takes te same amount of time to build up Marquette as it does Hofstra? Somehow I think it should be a little easier. 

I hope he's honored I expect every coach to want to meet my personal expectations!

[GGGG]

I'm confused are you saying it takes te same amount of time to build up Marquette as it does Hofstra? Somehow I think it should be a little easier.

Competition is harder.  I don't think it is easier or harder.  It just takes time.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Respect the process.

[MU82]

I'm confused are you saying it takes te same amount of time to build up Marquette as it does Hofstra? Somehow I think it should be a little easier. 

I hope he's honored I expect every coach to want to meet my personal expectations!

Hofstra was a side note.

It is no easier or harder to build a winner there within the constraints of its conference, etc.

You know what I was saying. Wright, whom we'll all agree is a fine coach, didn't win in his first four seasons as a college coach at Hofstra. Nor did he do anything in his first three seasons after stepping up in competition at Nova, even though he had considerable experience as a college head coach.

There are few "boy wonders," especially at our level, and especially given the state of the program Wojo inherited.

I love the "I'll give him three years" or "He better do it this year" talk.

It suggests an "... or else."

Which makes me want to respond "Or else what?"

As Sultan said, unless the 2016-17 season is an unmitigated disaster, Wojo will be back for 2017-18.

[Galway Eagle]

Hofstra was a side note.

It is no easier or harder to build a winner there within the constraints of its conference, etc.

You know what I was saying. Wright, whom we'll all agree is a fine coach, didn't win in his first four seasons as a college coach at Hofstra. Nor did he do anything in his first three seasons after stepping up in competition at Nova, even though he had considerable experience as a college head coach.

There are few "boy wonders," especially at our level, and especially given the state of the program Wojo inherited.

I love the "I'll give him three years" or "He better do it this year" talk.

It suggests an "... or else."

Which makes me want to respond "Or else what?"

As Sultan said, unless the 2016-17 season is an unmitigated disaster, Wojo will be back for 2017-18.

Well I said the or else what, or else I'm done with Wojo and see y'all for the next coach whether that's the following year, or two years later. I don't know the state of Wrights rosters the first three years but I'm guessing he wasn't going after high level transfers like we are this season. If Rowsey, Reinhardt and possibly Gill weren't on the team then I'd be all for four or five years for Wojo to get his culture in the program but I think when you have as much offense as we might (particularly if we get Gill) then you don't have excuses. 

[brewcity77]

Pretty sure the "or else what" question is already be answered by the thousands of season ticket holders that are not renewing tickets and not attending games. The last thing Marquette wants to do is ask their fans what the "or else" is, because at this rate they won't be able to afford the answer. Especially when one of the people who has responded that way is Dick Strong.

[real chili 83]

Way to go Willie.

[MU82]

Pretty sure the "or else what" question is already be answered by the thousands of season ticket holders that are not renewing tickets and not attending games. The last thing Marquette wants to do is ask their fans what the "or else" is, because at this rate they won't be able to afford the answer. Especially when one of the people who has responded that way is Dick Strong.

Barring an epic collapse or some kind of scandal, Wojo ain't going anywhere after Season 3, so all of this talk is laughable. No matter how many "or else's" aren't sitting in the seats, he'll be back for Year 4.

Hopefully, we're a 24-win tourney team next season, but I really laugh at this crapola.

I mean, Coach K couldn't win at Duke in his first three years and Wright couldn't win at Nova (or Hofstra!) in his first three years, but Wojo is supposed to be Dean Smith.

Oh wait ... Dean went 66-47 with zero postseason tournament appearances in his first five years at UNC. He shoulda had his arse "or-else"-d the hell outta there!

[brewcity77]

Barring an epic collapse or some kind of scandal, Wojo ain't going anywhere after Season 3, so all of this talk is laughable. No matter how many "or else's" aren't sitting in the seats, he'll be back for Year 4.

Hopefully, we're a 24-win tourney team next season, but I really laugh at this crapola.

I mean, Coach K couldn't win at Duke in his first three years and Wright couldn't win at Nova (or Hofstra!) in his first three years, but Wojo is supposed to be Dean Smith.

Oh wait ... Dean went 66-47 with zero postseason tournament appearances in his first five years at UNC. He shoulda had his arse "or-else"-d the hell outta there!

I agree that Wojo won't be gone after this year. However if the fans continue to not attend, revenues continue to drop, and major donors continue to not show up for games and close their checkbooks, someone's going to end up losing their job and I have a feeling it won't be Lovell or Scholl.

If we get back to dancing, it's a moot point, but if we end up with another 13-20 win season like the last three and shut out of the postseason along with season tickets, attendance, and donor numbers continuing to decline, they'll have to do something sooner rather than later. It isn't just basketball that relies on the success of that program.

[Eldon]

So.... do we cheer for Kris Jenkins when he's introduced at the BMO next year?

I love it.

[MU82]

I agree that Wojo won't be gone after this year. However if the fans continue to not attend, revenues continue to drop, and major donors continue to not show up for games and close their checkbooks, someone's going to end up losing their job and I have a feeling it won't be Lovell or Scholl.

If we get back to dancing, it's a moot point, but if we end up with another 13-20 win season like the last three and shut out of the postseason along with season tickets, attendance, and donor numbers continuing to decline, they'll have to do something sooner rather than later. It isn't just basketball that relies on the success of that program.

Well of course there is a "breaking point." Don't know when that is and hope not to find out.

It's crazy to consider that in this day and age, Smith would have been fired and K either would have been gone or would have been on the extreme hot seat.

We are so disappointed when our coaches are "disloyal," but loyalty is only a one-way street to fans.

[brewcity77]

Well of course there is a "breaking point." Don't know when that is and hope not to find out.

It's crazy to consider that in this day and age, Smith would have been fired and K either would have been gone or would have been on the extreme hot seat.

We are so disappointed when our coaches are "disloyal," but loyalty is only a one-way street to fans.

For me, I didn't like the Wally thing. Now if he can graduate this summer, it will lessen my disappointment, but I'm not a fan of using a player like a human bargaining chip. Everyone can have their opinions on the matter, but that one didn't sit well with me. For anyone that has no problem with it, that's their prerogative, but in my personal opinion it reflects poorly on both Marquette and the coaching staff.

Because of that, I feel like we are in "win now" mode. I'm done respecting the process, and I've been as patient as anyone with this, and probably moreso than most. I don't like jettisoning a guy because he's outlived his usefulness. Nothing about Wally really changed. His other sport commitments didn't change, his value to the team didn't change, and I guarantee had Henry came back Wally would still be here.

I still have hope for Wojo, still want to see him turn it around, but as soon as he decided to hit the Ellenson Eject button, I got fed up with waiting. If he can't be patient enough to respect his own process, why should I? If we don't get a player in here to replace Wally who can start and lead us to the NCAA Tournament, what was the point of booting him in the first place?

Again...it's all down to opinion, but that action changed how I feel about the coaching staff and the direction of the program.

[naginiF]

For me, I didn't like the Wally thing. Now if he can graduate this summer, it will lessen my disappointment, but I'm not a fan of using a player like a human bargaining chip. Everyone can have their opinions on the matter, but that one didn't sit well with me. For anyone that has no problem with it, that's their prerogative, but in my personal opinion it reflects poorly on both Marquette and the coaching staff.

Because of that, I feel like we are in "win now" mode. I'm done respecting the process, and I've been as patient as anyone with this, and probably moreso than most. I don't like jettisoning a guy because he's outlived his usefulness. Nothing about Wally really changed. His other sport commitments didn't change, his value to the team didn't change, and I guarantee had Henry came back Wally would still be here.

I still have hope for Wojo, still want to see him turn it around, but as soon as he decided to hit the Ellenson Eject button, I got fed up with waiting. If he can't be patient enough to respect his own process, why should I? If we don't get a player in here to replace Wally who can start and lead us to the NCAA Tournament, what was the point of booting him in the first place?

Again...it's all down to opinion, but that action changed how I feel about the coaching staff and the direction of the program.

I may have missed something in regards to the bolded portions.  Do we know for sure that Wojo 'baited' Henry to MU by assuring Wally he would have a 2 year spot?  I've seen a lot of interpretation around: 1) "smoke and mirrors", 2) how scholarships are one year contracts, 3) Wally's desire to play vs. jump, 4) the recruiting tactics/acumen, 5) twitter unfollowing, and 6) etc., etc., ad nauseam.  But nothing of substance.

The "everyone does it"/"it's the way the game is played" perspective is completely wrong for the Marquette community and I'm in 100% agreement with you if we know something for sure.  however, if it is all conjecture and personal perspective (which i believe it is).......I choose to believe Wojo and the administration are true to their word and building a winner the right way.

Choose to believe the low road, I choose to believe the high....correct me if i'm wrong.

[brewcity77]

I was careful to state it was my opinion. You can interpret it however you like. I don't like how it went down.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

For me, I didn't like the Wally thing. Now if he can graduate this summer, it will lessen my disappointment, but I'm not a fan of using a player like a human bargaining chip. Everyone can have their opinions on the matter, but that one didn't sit well with me. For anyone that has no problem with it, that's their prerogative, but in my personal opinion it reflects poorly on both Marquette and the coaching staff.

Because of that, I feel like we are in "win now" mode. I'm done respecting the process, and I've been as patient as anyone with this, and probably moreso than most. I don't like jettisoning a guy because he's outlived his usefulness. Nothing about Wally really changed. His other sport commitments didn't change, his value to the team didn't change, and I guarantee had Henry came back Wally would still be here.

I still have hope for Wojo, still want to see him turn it around, but as soon as he decided to hit the Ellenson Eject button, I got fed up with waiting. If he can't be patient enough to respect his own process, why should I? If we don't get a player in here to replace Wally who can start and lead us to the NCAA Tournament, what was the point of booting him in the first place?

Again...it's all down to opinion, but that action changed how I feel about the coaching staff and the direction of the program.

But something did change. He got a year older and showed no improvement from year 1 to year 3. Wojo took a flier on a kid with elite athleticism hoping he could turn him into a basketball player. He wasn't able to do it. Same thing happened with Jamal Ferguson, Reggie Smith, Erik Williams, Yous Mbao, Jake Thomas (before Vander declared and we were desperate), Jamail Jones, Scott Christopherson (that was a mistake) and Patrick Hazel (well, he had other issue but would have been run off). And I don't have anything to base this on, but I don't think past coaches would have made sure that Wally had a scholarship to finish his degree and then transfer out.

I don't understand why Wally should get special treatment just because he has a famous brother. If someone is against anyone getting cut than I understand (don't agree because we cut players from teams as young as 5th grade). But there's no reason to be outraged about the Wally situation if all the previously cut players didn't deserve the same outrage.

The funniest thing about this situation to me, is that Wally is going to get the same amount of playing time for Marquette without a scholarship as he was going to get with one.

[brewcity77]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

This should not have been a surprise to Wally. If this was always a possibility, that should have been made clear enough long ago. Yet I'll admit I hesitate to believe a candid, frank discussion about this was held while his brother was in the process of obliterating our freshman record book.

I'm not against all cuts, but the timing and circumstance around this one stunk to me. You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

[MUfan12]

You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

For a guy with an opinion, you seem pretty confident that you know exactly what was said and how everything went down.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

This should not have been a surprise to Wally. If this was always a possibility, that should have been made clear enough long ago. Yet I'll admit I hesitate to believe a candid, frank discussion about this was held while his brother was in the process of obliterating our freshman record book.

I'm not against all cuts, but the timing and circumstance around this one stunk to me. You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

Do you think there was a candid, frank discussion about Jamal Ferguson getting cut if he didn't get better?  Do you think the timing and circumstance was any better for Yous Mbao? Do you think Scott Christopherson wasn't surprised when he was Buzz cut? Do you think that these things are any less true for the vast majority of cut players? Why does Wally deserve special treatment? Hell, Wally did get special treatment, he got a track scholarship so he could get his degree without transferring.

We all agree we need another PF. I know the addition more people have had is with Katin Reinhardt. Make no mistake, Reinhardt was coming here whether or not they cut Wally. So would it have been more fair for Sacar Anim to get cut? Would there have been less qualms about that? Because that is what would have happened. Anim who is a better player than Wally getting cut because Wally has a famous brother who isn't even on the team anymore? I just don't understand the logic.

The funny thing is, the conflict between Wojo and the Ellensons wasn't even about the scholarship. The conflict was over playing time. The Ellensons thought he would slide into Henry's spot as the starting PF next season. Wojo told them that he was going to slide to the back of the rotation and get walk on minutes. The scholarship was a secondary issue.

As I am writing this, I thought of a difference between Wally and the other cut players from our past. Players like Jamal Ferguson were brought in with the potential for developing into a quality player. When they don't fulfill that potential, they are cut. Wally was brought in with potential for developing into a quality player and the potential for attracting Henry to Marquette. So while he didn't fulfill his potential to develop, he did fulfill his potential to attract his brother to Marquette. Is that why people are feeling guilty? Because they feel like Wally held up his end of the bargain?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

For a guy with an opinion, you seem pretty confident that you know exactly what was said and how everything went down.

I think Brew does have a good understanding of everything that went down. He is just uncomfortable with how it went down. Which is fine. We are all entitled to our opinions on our alma mater. I personally don't understand the logic...of course Logic was my one C at Marquette so da hell do I know?

[brewcity77]

Long post alert. I'm really perfectly ready to let this conversation go. I get that many of us disagree on how this was handled. Well...at the very least a few of us aren't fans of it. But the can of worms is open, so I'll respond, but only to clarify why I feel the way I do about this.

Do you think there was a candid, frank discussion about Jamal Ferguson getting cut if he didn't get better?

If not there absolutely should have been.

Do you think the timing and circumstance was any better for Yous Mbao?

Yes, because he was early enough in his career that he could still transfer without any problem. I am optimistic that Wally can graduate this summer and still latch on somewhere, but he should have been aware of this situation months ago so that it wouldn't be an issue now.

Do you think Scott Christopherson wasn't surprised when he was Buzz cut?

Christopherson was a completely different situation because of the coaching change. However, to the greater point of guys being surprised when they are told to pack their bags, I don't think it should come as a complete surprise. If you're making the move of cutting someone, you've been thinking about it for a long time. For a guy like Wojo, who the stories say was told by Coach K that he needed to do X, Y, and Z to become a contributing member of the team, that should resonate even more. These guys should be aware at every step where they stand and if they are on the chopping block, they should definitely be aware of where they are, why, and what it would take (or if there's nothing possible) to change that.

Do you think that these things are any less true for the vast majority of cut players? Why does Wally deserve special treatment?

I don't think he does. But I don't think anyone should be surprised when they are cut. The only exception would be a coaching change, where you know the dominoes may shuffle, and honestly, I think any incoming coach should have the integrity to give any of the on-roster players at least one year to see what he has. I'm not a fan of the Christopherson running-off either.

Part of my issue with this is also that if Wally is being completely blindsided by this, have the other players who are close to the fringe been given this talk? So many seem keen to toss Cohen and Anim out the door if we could land someone better. I'm not that guy, but I do feel that if those are indeed the two closest to the cut line, Wojo should have been having these discussions for the past few months and they should be fully aware where they stand and what they need to do to improve that standing. Honestly, even if guys aren't close to the line, they should still be getting those "where you are and where you need to be" talks on a regular basis.

Hell, Wally did get special treatment, he got a track scholarship so he could get his degree without transferring.

Again, I take more issue with him being a transfer senior because it is not just pulling his scholarship but ending his career prematurely. I hope he can graduate and transfer, but while that will be better than the current situation, it won't undo the way this was handled.

We all agree we need another PF. I know the addition more people have had is with Katin Reinhardt. Make no mistake, Reinhardt was coming here whether or not they cut Wally. So would it have been more fair for Sacar Anim to get cut? Would there have been less qualms about that? Because that is what would have happened. Anim who is a better player than Wally getting cut because Wally has a famous brother who isn't even on the team anymore? I just don't understand the logic.

The entire roster and scholarship situation is Wojo's doing. Us not having a PF on the roster is Wojo's doing. Us not having room for Reinhardt is Wojo's doing. Maybe he should have put more effort into landing Kyle Washington or Austin Nichols if PF was such a pressing need. Putting together a roster that makes sense going forward is the coach's job. If we have this need for a PF, whose fault is that? Certainly not Wally's, who helped bring in the best PF in Marquette history. As far as Anim, while I understand him growing and developing, he played just over half Wally's minutes in just over half Wally's games last year. Is he better right now?

I know you really like Reinhardt's game, but I feel he's a less than necessary piece. Okay...I get him if we are in "must win now" mode, but with Johnson, Wilson, Rowsey, and Cheatham we are not short of guys that can play the 2/3 role, especially with Anim, Cohen, and Hauser waiting in the wings. He was a luxury item at a position where we don't have a pressing need.

The funny thing is, the conflict between Wojo and the Ellensons wasn't even about the scholarship. The conflict was over playing time. The Ellensons thought he would slide into Henry's spot as the starting PF next season. Wojo told them that he was going to slide to the back of the rotation and get walk on minutes. The scholarship was a secondary issue.

Again, these are discussions that should be had continually. That said, Wally did play 8.8 mpg last year and minutes opened at the position he played most frequently. He shouldn't have been handed a starting spot, but based on our current roster, he should have had the chance to compete. And if it was a shock, he should have known why and what he needed to improve a long time ago.

As I am writing this, I thought of a difference between Wally and the other cut players from our past. Players like Jamal Ferguson were brought in with the potential for developing into a quality player. When they don't fulfill that potential, they are cut. Wally was brought in with potential for developing into a quality player and the potential for attracting Henry to Marquette. So while he didn't fulfill his potential to develop, he did fulfill his potential to attract his brother to Marquette. Is that why people are feeling guilty? Because they feel like Wally held up his end of the bargain?

That is without a doubt a major part of my feelings. Wally delivered. He did what he was supposed to do. But it's also about the timing. Before Wally was cut, his brother declared for the draft and we added Reinhardt. So the PF need was already there and the scholarship situation was already full. Someone was getting cut (as you noted above) and the reason for that is because of the coaching staff's roster management.

I think there are a couple other reasons, at least for me personally. First, I always felt that Wally wasn't just Henry bait. Watching him last year, I saw a high-energy player that could go get boards. Is he a 25 mpg guy? No, but I do think he demonstrated he could contribute at this level. If he's being reduced to walk-on minutes (thinking <5 mpg in <10 games played) then why was he given 8.8 mpg while playing 29 games this past year when more minutes should be available? To keep Henry and his family happy?

And on a strictly personal level, right now I am working with a ton of guys in this age range. 20-22 year old kids that don't have a ton of life experience. So yes, part of this is also me looking at my guys and knowing that for them to improve, I need to have these same candid, open, frank discussions on a regular basis. I'll also admit that may be unfair on my part to project my situation onto this, but the simple reality is that our own life experiences help form our opinions, and that's exactly what I'm looking at when I consider Wally getting cut.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Appreciate the thoughts Brew. I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint now. I still don't agree with everything but that is ok. I am willing to agree to disagree.

Now, how about that redemptive power of a national championship. Where on campus should we build the Kris Jenkins statue?

[brewcity77]

Appreciate the thoughts Brew. I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint now. I still don't agree with everything but that is ok. I am willing to agree to disagree.

Now, how about that redemptive power of a national championship. Where on campus should we build the Kris Jenkins statue?

Disagreement agreed

I say we put the statue in front of the remodeled Grand Avenue. Like Villanova, it'll be just a little bit east of campus.

[Benny B]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

Well duh.... because we wouldn't need a PF.

[MU82]

Long post alert. I'm really perfectly ready to let this conversation go. I get that many of us disagree on how this was handled. Well...at the very least a few of us aren't fans of it. But the can of worms is open, so I'll respond, but only to clarify why I feel the way I do about this.

If not there absolutely should have been.

Yes, because he was early enough in his career that he could still transfer without any problem. I am optimistic that Wally can graduate this summer and still latch on somewhere, but he should have been aware of this situation months ago so that it wouldn't be an issue now.

Christopherson was a completely different situation because of the coaching change. However, to the greater point of guys being surprised when they are told to pack their bags, I don't think it should come as a complete surprise. If you're making the move of cutting someone, you've been thinking about it for a long time. For a guy like Wojo, who the stories say was told by Coach K that he needed to do X, Y, and Z to become a contributing member of the team, that should resonate even more. These guys should be aware at every step where they stand and if they are on the chopping block, they should definitely be aware of where they are, why, and what it would take (or if there's nothing possible) to change that.

I don't think he does. But I don't think anyone should be surprised when they are cut. The only exception would be a coaching change, where you know the dominoes may shuffle, and honestly, I think any incoming coach should have the integrity to give any of the on-roster players at least one year to see what he has. I'm not a fan of the Christopherson running-off either.

Part of my issue with this is also that if Wally is being completely blindsided by this, have the other players who are close to the fringe been given this talk? So many seem keen to toss Cohen and Anim out the door if we could land someone better. I'm not that guy, but I do feel that if those are indeed the two closest to the cut line, Wojo should have been having these discussions for the past few months and they should be fully aware where they stand and what they need to do to improve that standing. Honestly, even if guys aren't close to the line, they should still be getting those "where you are and where you need to be" talks on a regular basis.

Again, I take more issue with him being a transfer senior because it is not just pulling his scholarship but ending his career prematurely. I hope he can graduate and transfer, but while that will be better than the current situation, it won't undo the way this was handled.

The entire roster and scholarship situation is Wojo's doing. Us not having a PF on the roster is Wojo's doing. Us not having room for Reinhardt is Wojo's doing. Maybe he should have put more effort into landing Kyle Washington or Austin Nichols if PF was such a pressing need. Putting together a roster that makes sense going forward is the coach's job. If we have this need for a PF, whose fault is that? Certainly not Wally's, who helped bring in the best PF in Marquette history. As far as Anim, while I understand him growing and developing, he played just over half Wally's minutes in just over half Wally's games last year. Is he better right now?

I know you really like Reinhardt's game, but I feel he's a less than necessary piece. Okay...I get him if we are in "must win now" mode, but with Johnson, Wilson, Rowsey, and Cheatham we are not short of guys that can play the 2/3 role, especially with Anim, Cohen, and Hauser waiting in the wings. He was a luxury item at a position where we don't have a pressing need.

Again, these are discussions that should be had continually. That said, Wally did play 8.8 mpg last year and minutes opened at the position he played most frequently. He shouldn't have been handed a starting spot, but based on our current roster, he should have had the chance to compete. And if it was a shock, he should have known why and what he needed to improve a long time ago.

That is without a doubt a major part of my feelings. Wally delivered. He did what he was supposed to do. But it's also about the timing. Before Wally was cut, his brother declared for the draft and we added Reinhardt. So the PF need was already there and the scholarship situation was already full. Someone was getting cut (as you noted above) and the reason for that is because of the coaching staff's roster management.

I think there are a couple other reasons, at least for me personally. First, I always felt that Wally wasn't just Henry bait. Watching him last year, I saw a high-energy player that could go get boards. Is he a 25 mpg guy? No, but I do think he demonstrated he could contribute at this level. If he's being reduced to walk-on minutes (thinking <5 mpg in <10 games played) then why was he given 8.8 mpg while playing 29 games this past year when more minutes should be available? To keep Henry and his family happy?

And on a strictly personal level, right now I am working with a ton of guys in this age range. 20-22 year old kids that don't have a ton of life experience. So yes, part of this is also me looking at my guys and knowing that for them to improve, I need to have these same candid, open, frank discussions on a regular basis. I'll also admit that may be unfair on my part to project my situation onto this, but the simple reality is that our own life experiences help form our opinions, and that's exactly what I'm looking at when I consider Wally getting cut.

I also like that you shared your rationale for all of your thoughts.

I agree with much of this (not that you asked), and I also respectfully disagree with some of it.

I especially disagree with you casually calling Henry "the best PF in Marquette history," as if there was no debate.

Mr. Lucas would strongly disagree.

But yes, I admit I'm picking nits.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If he doesn't make it this year I'd be done.  Might be willing to let him try for a fourth year but even without Gill we return 4 double digit scorers and have two double digit scoring transfers coming, if we land Gill that's more than enough offense that there's no excuse.

Good Lord 

[Herman Cain]

Wally was cut because Henry declared. While I always believed Henry would leave, had he instead played his sophomore year, I've no doubt at all Wally would still be here.

This should not have been a surprise to Wally. If this was always a possibility, that should have been made clear enough long ago. Yet I'll admit I hesitate to believe a candid, frank discussion about this was held while his brother was in the process of obliterating our freshman record book.

I'm not against all cuts, but the timing and circumstance around this one stunk to me. You are all obviously free to feel differently. I don't anticipate my opinion on this will change any time soon.

Wally was not cut. He had the opportunity to continue playing basketball, however he would have had to pay tuition like any other MU kid does. This is because the NCAA does not allow an athlete on a track scholarship to play basketball and football as a walk on. So Wally had a choice , be a walk on in both track and football. Or  participate in track and field as a scholarship athlete only. 

Bottom line the Ellenson family was too cheap to borrow the  $50,000 or so necessary to fund his last year of basketball at MU as a walk on.

[brewcity77]

Wally was not cut. He had the opportunity to continue playing basketball, however he would have had to pay tuition like any other MU kid does. This is because the NCAA does not allow an athlete on a track scholarship to play basketball and football as a walk on. So Wally had a choice , be a walk on in both track and football. Or  participate in track and field as a scholarship athlete only. 

Bottom line the Ellenson family was too cheap to borrow the  $50,000 or so necessary to fund his last year of basketball at MU as a walk on.

You're free to rationalize it however you like.

[Dawson Rental]

Wally was not cut. He had the opportunity to continue playing basketball, however he would have had to pay tuition like any other MU kid does. This is because the NCAA does not allow an athlete on a track scholarship to play basketball and football as a walk on. So Wally had a choice , be a walk on in both track and football. Or  participate in track and field as a scholarship athlete only. 

Bottom line the Ellenson family was too cheap to borrow the  $50,000 or so necessary to fund his last year of basketball at MU as a walk on.

Oh, and your scoop membership is still free, the mods just need 50k from you as contribution toward expenses....

                      ...unless, of course, the MU fan in NY family is too cheap to go 50 k in debt to support your membership.

[Dawson Rental]

Why does Wally deserve special treatment? Hell, Wally did get special treatment, he got a track scholarship so he could get his degree without transferring.

Admittedly, I'm not a follower of the track program, but I'm very confident that no one else on the track team has the same high NCAA profile as Wally, so i have a difficult time seeing the track scholarship as special treatment.

[Herman Cain]

You're free to rationalize it however you like.

I am not rationalizing it. I just don't see him as being cut. Cut to me means Your not qualified to play D1 basketball at Marquette, which was not the case.

What happened was he just lost a basketball scholarship.  I was told by several people in the athletic department he was welcome to play as a walk on in both sports or just focus on track and be a scholarship athlete.

Bottom line in the eyes of the coaches  he was the 14th best player on the team and only 13 can get a full ride basketball scholarship. Just for the record I am not a big fan of Wojo and his operating procedures and in no way do I endorse his actions.

At the end of the day Wally got a good deal. The deal he wanted no, but a good deal nonetheless. MU degree with no money out of pocket is a damn good thing many kids would love to have, and the chance to spend a year working on his high jumping craft and possibly becoming a pro in that sport.

[brewcity77]

I am not rationalizing it. I just don't see him as being cut. Cut to me means Your not qualified to play D1 basketball at Marquette, which was not the case.

 

<Sigh>

Again, you're free to rationalize it however you like.

[Loose Cannon]

Calling "Charlie Chan"

[Benny B]

<Sigh>

Again, you're free to rationalize it however you like.

I rationalize it by saying that Marquette didn't cut Wally, NCAA rules cut Wally.

He is unequivocally deserving of a full track scholarship, but - in this situation - the fact that he can't accept the track scholly and walk on is beyond unfair... it's downright ludicrous.

However, overall, I do find the NCAA rule quite fair.  For every Wally that gets screwed by it, it's preventing all of the P5 schools from burying the scholarships of 4 and 5* basketball players in the O-Sports.

There should be an exception to the rule for a guy like Wally... if you can qualify at the Olympic standard in any O-Sport, you should be able to accept an O-Sport scholly & walk-on to the basketball team.

[GGGG]

Are we sure that Wojo would accept Wally as a walk-on even if that were possible?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Are we sure that Wojo would accept Wally as a walk-on even if that were possible?

I believe so

[GGGG]

So then if Gill and Young end up elsewhere, and there is no other options as far as I can tell, would Wally "re-join" the team? 

[MU82]

So then if Gill and Young end up elsewhere, and there is no other options as far as I can tell, would Wally "re-join" the team?

Excellent question.

It would be pretty sad if we ended up with an unused scholly after all of this.

I do remain confident Wojo will fill it with a viable player, however.

[Lennys Tap]

I believe so

So the answer to Sultan's question (Are we sure that Wally would be welcome on the team as a walk on?) is "No".

[Herman Cain]

Are we sure that Wojo would accept Wally as a walk-on even if that were possible?

Yes I was told this by several parties in the athletic department.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So the answer to Sultan's question (Are we sure that Wally would be welcome on the team as a walk on?) is "No".

I may have missed something but I was saying yes to sultans question

[Lennys Tap]

I may have missed something but I was saying yes to sultans question

Sultan said "Are we SURE?" You said "I BELIEVE so". My "joke" was that your answer, while intending the affirmative was actually indicating the negative. But when you have to "explain" your material it's an admission of failure. Mea Culpa.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Sultan said "Are we SURE?" You said "I BELIEVE so". My "joke" was that your answer, while intending the affirmative was actually indicating the negative. But when you have to "explain" your material it's an admission of failure. Mea Culpa.

As I said, I may have missed something, haha.