MU's embarassingly high acceptance rate

[Disco Hippie]

Is anyone concerned about the fact that MU has missed it's Freshmen enrollment goal for 2 years running, so much so that an entire wing of O'Donnell was closed this past academic year, and that they need to accept nearly 75% of all applicants just to yield a class size large enough not to have to lay people off?  The reason I bring this up is because I recently became aware of a high school senior in the northeast for whom MU is still their first choice, but their parents saw that MU's acceptance rate was 75% last year according to Princeton Review and now they have serious reservations about sending their daughter there, even though they acknowledge MU is a very good fit.  It should come as no surprise that one parent's alma mater is an Ivy and although the other parent isn't an ivy alum, they also graduated from a northeastern elite ivy caliber school.   I realize the offspring of northeastern elitist snobs aren't MU's primary constituency, and I don't know these people personally.....another alum friend of mind who lives near these folks told me about this, but it's definitely disappointing.   Other than hoping WOJO gets us competitive again, which  isn't going to happen anytime soon, what is the administration doing to rectify this situation?  I realize MU isn't Harvard or Stanford, or even BC or GTOWN but if that 75% figure is accurate, that's embarrassing and is going have a serious impact on our ranking.   Thoughts?

[mu03eng]

Is anyone concerned about the fact that MU has missed it's Freshmen enrollment goal for 2 years running, so much so that an entire wing of O'Donnell was closed this past academic year, and that they need to accept nearly 75% of all applicants just to yield a class size large enough not to have to lay people off?  The reason I bring this up is because I recently became aware of a high school senior in the northeast for whom MU is still their first choice, but their parents saw that MU's acceptance rate was 75% last year according to Princeton Review and now they have serious reservations about sending their daughter there, even though they acknowledge MU is a very good fit.  It should come as no surprise that one parent's alma mater is an Ivy and although the other parent isn't an ivy alum, they also graduated from a northeastern elite ivy caliber school.   I realize the offspring of northeastern elitist snobs aren't MU's primary constituency, and I don't know these people personally.....another alum friend of mind who lives near these folks told me about this, but it's definitely disappointing.   Other than hoping WOJO gets us competitive again, which  isn't going to happen anytime soon, what is the administration doing to rectify this situation?  I realize MU isn't Harvard or Stanford, or even BC or GTOWN but if that 75% figure is accurate, that's embarrassing and is going have a serious impact on our ranking.   Thoughts?

Where are you getting your statistics? It depends on the college and/or major as to what the acceptance rate is. Some of the colleges have less than 50% acceptance rates by my understanding.

[GGGG]

Anybody that decides not to attend a college that is their "first choice" and "a very good fit" because their acceptance rate is too high is a moron.

[Coleman]

The application process has changed drastically.

I applied to three schools for undergrad: 2 front runners...UW-Madison and Marquette, and 1 backup..St. Norbert College. I got in to all 3 and picked MU. This was 12 years ago. I completed the written applications by hand, with applications snail mailed to admissions offices. To be frank, it was a pain in the neck.. which is why I only applied to three schools.

Kids today are applying to 20+ schools, most of which use the same common application. All you have to do is keep checking boxes for which schools you want, and the entire process is online. I think schools are still figuring out the right acceptance formula under the new model. MU might have had a couple years of miscalculations, but it doesn't sound like the long-term viability of the school is in jeopardy.

And I agree with Sultan, anyone who bases their decision on that metric, when everything else about the school is a great fit, is a moron.

[Eldon]

Is anyone concerned about the fact that MU has missed it's Freshmen enrollment goal for 2 years running, so much so that an entire wing of O'Donnell was closed this past academic year, and that they need to accept nearly 75% of all applicants just to yield a class size large enough not to have to lay people off?  The reason I bring this up is because I recently became aware of a high school senior in the northeast for whom MU is still their first choice, but their parents saw that MU's acceptance rate was 75% last year according to Princeton Review and now they have serious reservations about sending their daughter there, even though they acknowledge MU is a very good fit.  It should come as no surprise that one parent's alma mater is an Ivy and although the other parent isn't an ivy alum, they also graduated from a northeastern elite ivy caliber school.   I realize the offspring of northeastern elitist snobs aren't MU's primary constituency, and I don't know these people personally.....another alum friend of mind who lives near these folks told me about this, but it's definitely disappointing.   Other than hoping WOJO gets us competitive again, which  isn't going to happen anytime soon, what is the administration doing to rectify this situation?  I realize MU isn't Harvard or Stanford, or even BC or GTOWN but if that 75% figure is accurate, that's embarrassing and is going have a serious impact on our ranking.   Thoughts?

Don't focus too much on acceptance rate.  Here's two reasons why.

First, if a school has a good reputation--which MU certainly does in, say, a 6-hour radius of Milwaukee--its acceptance rate will be higher than it otherwise would be.  If "bad" high school students are aware that a school is a very good school, then they will not waste their time, money, and effort in applying because they believe that they will be rejected anyway.  Thus, they do not apply.  And thus, these "bad" students do not show up in the sample data used to calculate the acceptance rate.  In other words, MU's acceptance rate could be so high because it only has "good" students applying.

Second, the acceptance rate is easy to manipulate.  School admin may be hellbent on rising in the USWNR.  School admin is aware of point 1 above.  How does school admin respond, given point 1 above?  The admin will waive application fees for students who are "bad" students.  By 'bad' here I mean students who are just below the cusp of the GPA-SAT/ACT index threshold required for acceptance.  In addition to waiving application fees, the admin will send colorful brochures about the school to these "bad" students.  Why?  To give these bad students the impression that they actually have a shot at getting in.  And hey, why not, it's free to apply!  Nothing to lose!  The student applies, is rejected, and the schools acceptance rate is boosted, fooling people like your friends who are looking at colleges for their child.

Let me illustrate the second point with a concrete example.  Suppose that Billy takes the SAT and scores in the 70th percentile.  Suppose further that he has a 3.6 GPA from a good-but-not-great public high school in upstate New York. 

Billy looks up the average SAT and GPA of Rochester, Syracuse, and some SUNY schools.  He notices that the average SAT percentile at Rochester is 80 and the average GPA is 3.75.  This is the highest of the schools that he is considering.  And, of course, Rochester is the "Harvard of upstate New York."  Alas, Billy doesn't apply to Rochester.

But behold.  What's that?  An e-mail?  A rochester.edu tag?  Rochester sends him a personalized e-mail, encouraging him to apply.  "Wow"  Billy utters to himself.  "Maybe I do have a shot.  And they'll waive the $60 application fee."  Rochester knows that Billy doesn't have a shot at getting acceptance.  Billy applies.  Billy is rejected.  Billy (artificially) boosts Rochester's acceptance rate.  His compensation for this favor is a glossy Rochester brochure, a souvenir to remember his temporary, false hope.  Rochester fools your friends into sending their child there. 

 

[Benny B]

I know that Marquette has a very low enrollment rate, which partially explains the high acceptance rate.  But as a parent, I would be more concerned with the incoming class profile and placement rates than I ever would about acceptance/enrollment rates.

[GGGG]

Things I would be concerned about:

Fit.  Fit.  Fit.  Your kids can be comfortable at any number of schools.  If they can't see themselves succeeding at those places, that is where they first cut off should be regardless of other factors.  Remember that Marquette is an urban school in a midwestern city. 

Quality of the program they are interested in.  Not only what is their placement rate, but who recruits there and who hires from there?  What graduate schools do your graduates attend?  Too many people focus on the incoming indicators and not the outgoing ones. 

Cost.  Self explanatory.

[keefe]

Anybody that who decides not to attend a college, that which is their "first choice" and "a very good fit", because their acceptance rate is too high is a moron.

[Litehouse]

Marquette is a private school with a high sticker price.  That fact alone is going to limit the number of kids that apply.

[jsglow]

MU has moved away from a model that sought 20,000+ applications which yielded roughly 11,000 acceptances to garner a class of about 1900-1950.  Decided it was inefficient.  Far more targeted today.  So they're only seeking out kids likely to actually be accepted.  We'll see how this new approach works.  MU lags its competition both in terms of comparable merit based scholarships AND outright recruiting of candidates following the offer of admission.  You older guys wouldn't believe the direct solicitation that goes on these days for top kids.

MU's class profile has remained quite consistent over the last several years.  It is true that last year's Frosh class was a bit smaller at about 1850.  I do not have numbers for the current class but have heard 'on target' and 'cautiously optimistic' as recently as a few weeks ago.  Note that Marquette takes this all very seriously as the pool each year, especially in the upper Midwest, is shrinking.

BTW, go back sometime and look at the early 1990's stats.  Those were tough times indeed.  Again, thanks for leading us out of the wilderness Fr. Wild.

One more quick addition.  For those who think that successful basketball doesn't impact enrollment I've got some cranberry bog swampland to sell you.

[keefe]

BTW, go back sometime and look at the early 1990's stats.  Those were tough times indeed.  Again, thanks for leading us out of the wilderness Fr. Wild.

glow

What was going on in the early 90s that impacted MU admissions/enrollments?

[LAMUfan]

Don't focus too much on acceptance rate.  Here's two reasons why.

First, if a school has a good reputation--which MU certainly does in, say, a 6-hour radius of Milwaukee--its acceptance rate will be higher than it otherwise would be.  If "bad" high school students are aware that a school is a very good school, then they will not waste their time, money, and effort in applying because they believe that they will be rejected anyway.  Thus, they do not apply.  And thus, these "bad" students do not show up in the sample data used to calculate the acceptance rate.  In other words, MU's acceptance rate could be so high because it only has "good" students applying.

Second, the acceptance rate is easy to manipulate.  School admin may be hellbent on rising in the USWNR.  School admin is aware of point 1 above.  How does school admin respond, given point 1 above?  The admin will waive application fees for students who are "bad" students.  By 'bad' here I mean students who are just below the cusp of the GPA-SAT/ACT index threshold required for acceptance.  In addition to waiving application fees, the admin will send colorful brochures about the school to these "bad" students.  Why?  To give these bad students the impression that they actually have a shot at getting in.  And hey, why not, it's free to apply!  Nothing to lose!  The student applies, is rejected, and the schools acceptance rate is boosted, fooling people like your friends who are looking at colleges for their child.

Let me illustrate the second point with a concrete example.  Suppose that Billy takes the SAT and scores in the 70th percentile.  Suppose further that he has a 3.6 GPA from a good-but-not-great public high school in upstate New York. 

Billy looks up the average SAT and GPA of Rochester, Syracuse, and some SUNY schools.  He notices that the average SAT percentile at Rochester is 80 and the average GPA is 3.75.  This is the highest of the schools that he is considering.  And, of course, Rochester is the "Harvard of upstate New York."  Alas, Billy doesn't apply to Rochester.

But behold.  What's that?  An e-mail?  A rochester.edu tag?  Rochester sends him a personalized e-mail, encouraging him to apply.  "Wow"  Billy utters to himself.  "Maybe I do have a shot.  And they'll waive the $60 application fee."  Rochester knows that Billy doesn't have a shot at getting acceptance.  Billy applies.  Billy is rejected.  Billy (artificially) boosts Rochester's acceptance rate.  His compensation for this favor is a glossy Rochester brochure, a souvenir to remember his temporary, false hope.  Rochester fools your friends into sending their child there. 

 

I got something like that from Harvard because my dad is an Alum.  I did not apply and would have been rejected so justly had I.

[keefe]

Let me illustrate the second point with a concrete example.  Suppose that Billy takes the SAT and scores in the 70th percentile.  Suppose further that he has a 3.6 GPA from a good-but-not-great public high school in upstate New York. 

Billy looks up the average SAT and GPA of Rochester, Syracuse, and some SUNY schools.  He notices that the average SAT percentile at Rochester is 80 and the average GPA is 3.75.  This is the highest of the schools that he is considering.  And, of course, Rochester is the "Harvard of upstate New York."  Alas, Billy doesn't apply to Rochester.

But behold.  What's that?  An e-mail?  A rochester.edu tag?  Rochester sends him a personalized e-mail, encouraging him to apply.  "Wow"  Billy utters to himself.  "Maybe I do have a shot.  And they'll waive the $60 application fee."  Rochester knows that Billy doesn't have a shot at getting acceptance.  Billy applies.  Billy is rejected.  Billy (artificially) boosts Rochester's acceptance rate.  His compensation for this favor is a glossy Rochester brochure, a souvenir to remember his temporary, false hope.  Rochester fools your friends into sending their child there. 

 

This practice is incredibly dishonest. And all to satisfy an arbitrary metric developed by a news magazine.

[jsglow]

keefe, I'd say 2 things.  Dahmer and crappy basketball over an extended period. 

Couple that with some really outdated facilities with the exception of the then new AMU.  Plus remember that MKE was really struggling following de-industrialization in the 80's.

[BrewCity83]

glow

What was going on in the early 90s that impacted MU admissions/enrollments?

Bob Dukiet.

[GGGG]

keefe, I'd say 2 things.  Dahmer and crappy basketball over an extended period. 

Couple that with some really outdated facilities with the exception of the then new AMU.  Plus remember that MKE was really struggling following de-industrialization in the 80's.

Also Marquette was still recruiting from the same basic schools it always had been (Catholic high schools from the midwest) without realizing that many of those kids weren't as interested as in previous generations in attending Catholic universities. 

[GGGG]

This practice is incredibly dishonest. And all to satisfy an arbitrary metric developed by a news magazine.

Yep.  You know what school has absolutely perfected ratings manipulation and has seen its profile skyrocket as a result?  Washington University in St. Louis. 

[GGGG]

LOL, thanks keefe for the ironic laugh at my grammar.

[mu03eng]

Yep.  You know what school has absolutely perfected ratings manipulation and has seen its profile skyrocket as a result?  Washington University in St. Louis.

It's kind of like the Pac-12 and MWC in RPI rankings

[jsglow]

Again, I'm going to sing Bob Wild's praises here.  In the early 1990s, Marquette was on life support.  Milwaukee was still in a major downturn so MU's historic Frosh class that had probably been 60% southeast WI kids wasn't really available anymore.  At the same time, he inherited a campus that looked almost exactly like the place that you old farts who graduated in 1975 were familiar with (minus some of the bars), just worn down another 20 years.  He also instinctively knew that he had to attract far more kids from the upper middle class suburbs surrounding Chicago.  But he had nothing to sell other than a still good Jesuit name.  Oh yeah, and he had the legacy of some guy named Jeff who had horrified all of us just off campus in 1991.  That had a lasting impact on enrollment for several years. 

So what did he do?  For one thing, he went out and raised a crap ton of money on the power of his personality so he could build a modern campus.  It started with Raynor library.  So when those modestly more well to do kids who could actually afford Marquette showed up for a tour, perky young guides had something to show off. 

Second, he rejected DiUlio's 'basketball isn't very important' model knowing full well that it served as the front porch for the university's new nationwide recruiting effort.  That also cost a ton of money he needed to raise and remains the operative model today. 

Third, he invested heavily in campus security so suburban moms wouldn't be too afraid to leave their daughters.  He rejected the 'SLU wall' concept believing than 'young men and women for others' should strive to improve the neighborhood and community.  And today practically no kid graduates without having done significant community service work.  My own taught underprivileged kids to read and showed them the joys of nature in after school park programs having nothing to do with their majors.  Both extended their service well beyond Milwaukee helping folks in New Orleans and New York City recover from disaster. 

We all owe Fr. Wild a lot.

[4everwarriors]

Middle of da road, hey?

[Coleman]

glow

What was going on in the early 90s that impacted MU admissions/enrollments?

Dahmer, for one thing.

[GGGG]

Again, I'm going to sing Bob Wild's praises here.  In the early 1990s, Marquette was on life support.  Milwaukee was still in a major downturn so MU's historic Frosh class that had probably been 60% southeast WI kids wasn't really available anymore.  At the same time, he inherited a campus that looked almost exactly like the place that you old farts who graduated in 1975 were familiar with (minus some of the bars), just worn down another 20 years.  He also instinctively knew that he had to attract far more kids from the upper middle class suburbs surrounding Chicago.  But he had nothing to sell other than a still good Jesuit name.  Oh yeah, and he had the legacy of some guy named Jeff who had horrified all of us just off campus in 1991.  That had a lasting impact on enrollment for several years. 

So what did he do?  For one thing, he went out and raised a crap ton of money on the power of his personality so he could build a modern campus.  It started with Raynor library.  So when those modestly more well to do kids who could actually afford Marquette showed up for a tour, perky young guides had something to show off. 

Second, he rejected DiUlio's 'basketball isn't very important' model knowing full well that it served as the front porch for the university's new nationwide recruiting effort.  That also cost a ton of money he needed to raise and remains the operative model today. 

Third, he invested heavily in campus security so suburban moms wouldn't be too afraid to leave their daughters.  He rejected the 'SLU wall' concept believing than 'young men and women for others' should strive to improve the neighborhood and community.  And today practically no kid graduates without having done significant community service work.  My own taught underprivileged kids to read and showed them the joys of nature in after school park programs having nothing to do with their majors.  Both extended their service well beyond Milwaukee helping folks in New Orleans and New York City recover from disaster. 

We all owe Fr. Wild a lot.

DiUlio I don't think had a "basketball is not important" mentality.  Dukiet had already been run out of town when he got into office, and we moved from the Horizon to the Great Midwest to Conference USA when he was here.

And he also deserves a lot of credit in addressing the problems of the neighborhood.

http://marquettewire.org/9011/ae/latest-issue/our-greatest-tradition/

"Rather than uproot Marquette’s campus or erect a wall around the premises, DiUlio enlisted a former classmate, LeSage, to help him with his vision to rejuvenate the area by creating Campus Circle in 1991. To curb the decline in applications as quickly as possible, “A ‘quick and dirty’ assessment was made of all properties in terms of value, rehabilitation costs and potential,” the Bruner Award document stated.

In the winter of 1992, Campus Circle began acquiring properties in a “decaying” 90 square-block area contiguous to the university to develop student housing, commercial property and low-cost housing for local residents.

As of 1995, Campus Circle had already purchased over 150 properties, owned $50 million in real estate value, built or renovated 153 units of new student housing and acquired 88,000 square-feet of commercial space."

[Coleman]

DiUlio I don't think had a "basketball is not important" mentality.  Dukiet had already been run out of town when he got into office, and we moved from the Horizon to the Great Midwest to Conference USA when he was here.

And he also deserves a lot of credit in addressing the problems of the neighborhood.

http://marquettewire.org/9011/ae/latest-issue/our-greatest-tradition/

"Rather than uproot Marquette’s campus or erect a wall around the premises, DiUlio enlisted a former classmate, LeSage, to help him with his vision to rejuvenate the area by creating Campus Circle in 1991. To curb the decline in applications as quickly as possible, “A ‘quick and dirty’ assessment was made of all properties in terms of value, rehabilitation costs and potential,” the Bruner Award document stated.

In the winter of 1992, Campus Circle began acquiring properties in a “decaying” 90 square-block area contiguous to the university to develop student housing, commercial property and low-cost housing for local residents.

As of 1995, Campus Circle had already purchased over 150 properties, owned $50 million in real estate value, built or renovated 153 units of new student housing and acquired 88,000 square-feet of commercial space."

"Campus Circle" is essentially what brought about Campus Town apartments and retail, right?

[GGGG]

Yes.