Turnovers

[HoopsterBC]

Until this team decides to stop throwing the ball all over the place or dribbling the ball off there legs,  this year is over.  20 turnovers a game is a minimum of 20 points
a game added to MU's score.  Until they figure that out, you can talk all you want about improvement, moral victories, buttom line there losses.  Somehow Wojo
has to figure out an offense that simplifies plays, slow it down, do something, after 24 games I do not see much improvement there.  I was taught to take the ball to
the free throw line on the fastbreak and then make a decision, to either pass to the open man or shoot a free throw.  That is a simple drill that should be ingrained in
there head.  Not sure what Cohen was thinking, but maybe it is about coaching.

[mileskishnish72]

Agree. Wojo wants to open things up, but with this callow group I think they might do better with a slower pace, valuing each possession, like Brent did with the midgets.

[connie]

The converse is that you are asking a turnover prone team to play more games that are designed to come down to fewer possessions, magnifying the impact of possessions, and therefore the turnovers.

[Big Papi]

That this is a problem that has not been fixed is a huge disappointment.  Lack of a good point guard is the main reason. 

Wojo needs to recruit a big time point guard to fix this problem long term.  He needs to adjust his offensive philosophy to fix the short term but that has not happened. 

Feel bad for Henry.  No way should this team not be in contention for a big dance bid. 

[tower912]

Young team=turnovers.  This team has come miles since November.  Wojo acknowledges that turnovers are the Achilles heel of this team.  Two freshman point guards, one who has never played the position.   A high usage freshman big prone to traveling and pushing off when defended by more athletic forwards.  Turnovers are part of their learning.

[BlindboyPatSmith]

By this time in the season, a former coach would have said 'they are NOT freshmen anymore'

[Dawson Rental]

Until this team decides to stop throwing the ball all over the place or dribbling the ball off there legs,  this year is over.  20 turnovers a game is a minimum of 20 points
a game added to MU's score.  Until they figure that out, you can talk all you want about improvement, moral victories, buttom line there losses.  Somehow Wojo
has to figure out an offense that simplifies plays, slow it down, do something, after 24 games I do not see much improvement there.  I was taught to take the ball to
the free throw line on the fastbreak and then make a decision, to either pass to the open man or shoot a free throw.  That is a simple drill that should be ingrained in
there head.  Not sure what Cohen was thinking, but maybe it is about coaching.

The most annoyed I got during the game was when the play-by-play guy would say that Marquette is one of the youngest teams in the conference.  If you're doing play-by-play do the research to discover that MU is the eighth youngest team in Division I.

Simplify the offense?  Really???  So leading the sixth ranked team in the country for over three quarters of the game - on the road- with the eighth youngest team out of 351, isn't good enough for you, and you'd cut short the learning process and switch the offense away from the player's strengths to try and make things better?  I'd much rather have a team that's playing loose and making and learning from mistakes than a moribund one that is terrified of screwing up.

I can just wonder about what kind of post you'd make after MU got its turnovers down to single digits in games while scoring only 52 points a game and losing by 20 plus points.

Rebuilding years - and the mistakes that occur during them - are the dues you pay to get a team capable of of contending for a championship.

[Marcus92]

As noted above, this is a team-wide issue — not one that lies only with the point guard position.

We've seen way too many unforced turnovers (balls lost out of bounds without a defender involved), traveling and carrying calls. Entry and outlet passes have been inconsistent, leading to too many steals and balls thrown out of bounds. And although Wojo encourages aggressive play and driving to the basket, we've got to cut down on charges.

We don't have to be the best team in the Big East at protecting the ball. Xavier averages 13.0 turnovers per game, fifth in the conference. But we can't be the worst. Imagine if we had only committed 13 turnovers instead of 20 in yesterday's game. Totally different story.

[Dawson Rental]

As noted above, this is a team-wide issue — not one that lies only with the point guard position.

We've seen way too many unforced turnovers (balls lost out of bounds without a defender involved), traveling and carrying calls. Entry and outlet passes have been inconsistent, leading to too many steals and balls thrown out of bounds. And although Wojo encourages aggressive play and driving to the basket, we've got to cut down on charges.

We don't have to be the best team in the Big East at protecting the ball. Xavier averages 13.0 turnovers per game, fifth in the conference. But we can't be the worst. Imagine if we had only committed 13 turnovers instead of 20 in yesterday's game. Totally different story.

With this team, how would you get from 20 to 13 turnovers?  My argument is that if you pull in the reins to accomplish that, you take so much pressure off a defense like Xavier's that you pay too heavy a discount in points per possession, and you are probably worse off in the final score.

I'd much rather watch an aggressive offense, its more exciting, and its gives MU an occasional shot against a superior opponent.  I'd much rather watch a team that loses a lead in the last eight minutes of a close game than one that is less variable, but at the cost of never really being a threat to win after the first eight minutes of the first half.

The way I see it is MU's offense is dangerous to opponents and occasionally to MU.  If you keep teaching that, and over time, with experience, danger to MU decreases and the danger to the opponent increases.  I believe that I am not alone among Scoopers in believing that that process is already underway.

[Marcus92]

The most annoyed I got during the game was when the play-by-play guy would say that Marquette is one of the youngest teams in the conference. If you're doing play-by-play do the research to discover that MU is the eighth youngest team in Division I.

The quality of the broadcast teams at Fox Sports 1 varies wildly. As a whole, I haven't been impressed. I've even put games on mute for stretches because the commentary seems so inane or ill-informed. That said, I think it's an improvement from last season.

[Marcus92]

With this team, how would you get from 20 to 13 turnovers?  My argument is that if you pull in the reins to accomplish that, you take so much pressure off a defense like Xavier's that you pay too heavy a discount in points per possession, and you are probably worse off in the final score...with experience, danger to MU decreases and the danger to the opponent increases.  I believe that I am not alone among Scoopers in believing that that process is already underway.

Good question and great post. Think I agree with everything here. The team is playing the style Wojo wants (and a style that fits our talent). But I know Wojo is not happy with averaging 15 turnovers a game. He's said so repeatedly. In my opinion, it's the single biggest factor holding the team back right now.

Truth is, there's likely no simple answer for bringing that number down before the end of the season. Sometimes the best lessons are the hardest ones. Marquette is learning what kind of effort it takes to play in the Big East. I'm encouraged by the toughness and resilience of this team. Next they need to learn how to play smarter.

[tower912]

Bo Ryan wanted to avoid turnovers in his offense.  His teams valued the ball.  How many freshman guards saw big minutes under him?   Many people don't want to accept the correlation between inexperience and turnovers.  Watch other games.  Watch frosh get pulled for dumb plays and listen to the announcer make the connection.  Marquette is no different.   Understand the game. 

[wadesworld]

People want to watch us slow the pace and turn into a half court offense?  Our transition game is where we are at our best, and it's not even close.  If we slowed the game down, walked the ball up the court, and didn't attack the rim simply because we wanted to drop our turnover average by 2 per game we'd lose games by 30 instead of 8.

[Marcus92]

People want to watch us slow the pace and turn into a half court offense?

That's not what I want. Like I stated above, that's not what Wojo wants, either. He wants his team to push the pace and be aggressive. I enjoy that style of play and have no issues with our pace. But he's also talked repeatedly about giving away too many possessions.

Dribbling the ball off your foot doesn't have anything to do with pace. Neither does getting called for carrying the ball. Or throwing an outlet pass over the head of the receiver. Or passing into a double team on the low block. Those are mental errors. Cut down and those and you'll start to see a big difference on the scoreboard.

[wadesworld]

That's not what I want. Like I stated above, that's not what Wojo wants, either. He wants his team to push the pace and be aggressive. I enjoy that style of play and have no issues with our pace. But he's also talked repeatedly about giving away too many possessions.

Dribbling the ball off your foot doesn't have anything to do with pace. Neither does getting called for carrying the ball. Or throwing an outlet pass over the head of the receiver. Or passing into a double team on the low block. Those are mental errors. Cut down and those and you'll start to see a big difference on the scoreboard.

Right.  We have a young, inexperienced team who is just now starting to figure out the physicality and the speed of high level division one basketball.  It's unfortunate Hank wouldn't be coming into his 1 year with Marquette next year, because with everyone else having a year under their belt plus this year's Hank we would be damn good next year.  As it is, we are an exciting but inconsistent team.

[Stretchdeltsig]

Agree thAt the Fox1 broadcast team are not good.  Brian Anderson is terrible.  He always talks up the opponent whether it's a Marquette or Brewer game and he is very boring.  He should be fired.  We deserve better.

[GGGG]

Agree thAt the Fox1 broadcast team are not good.  Brian Anderson is terrible.  He always talks up the opponent whether it's a Marquette or Brewer game and he is very boring.  He should be fired.  We deserve better.

I like Anderson.

[DaCoach]

The team had 7 T/O in the last 1:30 of each half. Wilson and Cheatham combined for 11 of them for the game. And this isn't the first game that the team wilted at the end of a game and half. Regardless of Carter's lack of consistent offense I'd much rather have him on the court at the end of games. Haniff just isn't a PG.

[brewcity77]

Simplify the offense?  Really???  So leading the sixth ranked team in the country for over three quarters of the game - on the road- with the eighth youngest team out of 351, isn't good enough for you, and you'd cut short the learning process and switch the offense away from the player's strengths to try and make things better?

LOLOLOLOLOL

Player's strengths? Are you out of your mind? We don't play at all to our players' strengths on offense.

[Dawson Rental]

LOLOLOLOLOL

Player's strengths? Are you out of your mind? We don't play at all to our players' strengths on offense.

Care to elaborate?

[brewcity77]

Care to elaborate?

Sure, happy to.
.

• Tempo: We play a high-tempo offense. The 71.2 possessions we average is 81st in the country. However, while we are in the top-23% in terms of playing fast, we are among the worst (316) in turnover percentage. By playing at a fast pace, we are increasing the odds we will turn it over a ton, hence why we are averaging over 15 TOs per game. With a young team and two of our primary PG options turning the ball over at rates of 27.8% and 30.5%, we are literally giving games away.
  
• Efficiency: Our highest usage player is Henry Ellenson, who takes 28.1% of our shots when he is on the court. But of our top-5 players in percent of shots taken (Duane, Jajuan, Haanif, Luke) Henry is by far our least efficient shooter with an eFG% of 46.6%. Everyone else is over 53.6%. In fact, based on current numbers, our top-5 scoring options have an almost direct inverse proportion when you compare eFG% and Shot percentage. Best to worst eFG% we have 1) Luke 59.7, 2) Haanif 54.4, 3) Jajuan 54.5, 4) Duane 53.6, 5) Henry 46.6. And lowest to highest shot percentage we have 5) Luke 19.3, 4) Haanif 19.4, 3) Jajuan 22.7, 2) Duane 23.9, 1) Henry 28.1. So basically, our least effective players take the highest number of shots and our most effective players take the fewest shots.
  
• Primary Option eFG%: The counter argument to this is that when players take more shots, the numbers will come back to the mean, while it's easier to be high efficiency with a smaller number of shots. That's all well and good, but Henry is the first player since Lazar Hayward in 2010 to lead Marquette in shot percentage with an eFG% under 50.0, and Lazar was still well ahead of Henry at 49.5%. Bottom line, we are running the offense through the wrong guy.
  
• Setting Luke up for Failure: Luke is horribly misused. It isn't just that we sometimes struggle getting the ball in to him, but when we do get it in, at least 2-3 times per game we completely clear out the side once the entry pass is made. That allows for easy double-teams and takes away Luke's passing ability by feeding it in and kicking it back out. If he consistently got shots up and our guards crashed the boards from the other side, it might work, but they don't. Of our five primary guards and wings, only Jajuan has an offensive rebounding percentage over 2.5%. There is virtually no chance Duane, Haney, Sandy, or Traci will get to the rebound after clearing out.
  
• Three-Point Takers: Henry should not be second on the team in three point attempts. Two reasons, first his 29.3% success rate is the lowest on the team among players that have taken at least 20 threes (and by a decent margin, Traci is next at 33.3%). Second, Henry is one of two players on the team that is actually a good offensive rebounder (Luke the other). When he shoots from the perimeter, it takes one of our only real chances of getting offensive rebounds away from the area where he can get those rebounds. His three point attempts decrease our chances of scoring and our chances of getting to the offensive glass. It's even worse when he takes a three and Luke isn't on the floor. I sincerely hope this is being addressed as Henry is picking his shots better recently, shooting 44.4% beyond the arc in his past 7 games on 2.6 attempts per game after shooting 24.6% on 3.4 attempts over the first 17 games.

.
So in a nutshell, we play a fast-paced offense with a roster that would be better suited to slow the game down to increase efficiency and reduce the number of possessions thus giving us a better chance of being in the game late. We have the wrong guys taking shots, running the offense through the worst options and putting our highest volume and highest efficiency players in positions where they are less likely to succeed. And we compound our problems by putting our worst long-ball threat and second best offensive rebounder on the arc where we increase the odds of missing shots while decreasing the odds of getting offensive rebounds.

My guess is that Wojo wants to play an up-tempo offense predicated on turnovers and long-range shooting, but right now, we are too sloppy and inefficient to make that work. Hopefully in the years to come the bumps we suffer this year will pay off, but saying that making changes would be shifting the offense away from the players' strengths is completely false, because right now the last thing we are doing is tailoring the offense to the players' current strengths.

[GGGG]

Let's not be a slave to "efficiency" to determine how to run the offense. Descriptive not necessarily prescriptive.

[brewcity77]

Let's not be a slave to "efficiency" to determine how to run the offense. Descriptive not necessarily prescriptive.

Do I place a high value on efficiency? Sure. But my issue is that our staff almost deliberately seems to put a reverse value on it.

And this isn't just efficiency. This is saying that taking a young, turnover-prone team and having them run at a fast-break pace in a defensive-minded league is a bad idea. Bailing out on your center as soon as you get the ball in to him, leaving him in a double-team without an outlet pass is a bad idea. And yes, also having your least effective scorers take the highest volume of shots is a bad idea.

Against top-200 opposition, in games that were played at a pace of 72 or fewer possessions in regulation (including both IUPUI and ASU), we are 5-3. In games played at a pace of 73 or more possessions in regulation, we are 1-6. So if we are more likely to lose as the number of possessions goes up, why on earth are we playing a fast-paced offense? It makes no sense and completely goes against our players' strengths.

EDIT: Also, one of those two slow-paced losses was the DePaul game, decided on the final shot, while the sole fast-paced win was the 1-point victory over LSU. So we are 1 point in either direction from being 6-2 in slow paced games and 0-7 in faster paced games.

[BM1090]

Do I place a high value on efficiency? Sure. But my issue is that our staff almost deliberately seems to put a reverse value on it.

And this isn't just efficiency. This is saying that taking a young, turnover-prone team and having them run at a fast-break pace in a defensive-minded league is a bad idea. Bailing out on your center as soon as you get the ball in to him, leaving him in a double-team without an outlet pass is a bad idea. And yes, also having your least effective scorers take the highest volume of shots is a bad idea.

Against top-200 opposition, in games that were played at a pace of 72 or fewer possessions in regulation (including both IUPUI and ASU), we are 5-3. In games played at a pace of 73 or more possessions in regulation, we are 1-6. So if we are more likely to lose as the number of possessions goes up, why on earth are we playing a fast-paced offense? It makes no sense and completely goes against our players' strengths.

EDIT: Also, one of those two slow-paced losses was the DePaul game, decided on the final shot, while the sole fast-paced win was the 1-point victory over LSU. So we are 1 point in either direction from being 6-2 in slow paced games and 0-7 in faster paced games.

But if that's the way that they want to play, they have 2 freshmen and 1 sophomore guard who will get used to playing fast paced and improve in the system over the next 3/4 years. Carter and Cheatham with 4 years  in the same system should pay dividends when they are upperclassmen.

So while this year it's ugly, they will likely limit turnovers better with each year of age/experience in the system.

[brewcity77]

But if that's the way that they want to play, they have 2 freshmen and 1 sophomore guard who will get used to playing fast paced and improve in the system over the next 3/4 years. Carter and Cheatham with 4 years  in the same system should pay dividends when they are upperclassmen.

So while this year it's ugly, they will likely limit turnovers better with each year of age/experience in the system.

Which I mentioned in my original explanatory post. But the point remains, we are not playing to our players' strengths. We are playing to their weaknesses. We are playing a style that increases the likelihood of turning the ball over, reduces our chances of having success on the offensive glass, and puts the ball into the hands of the players least likely to produce.

I hope it does pay off, but saying that this offense currently plays to our strengths is a complete fabrication.