Poll: Wojo or Buzz?

[MerrittsMustache]

And if you're looking for an MU coach as good or better than Buzz in these 3 areas, the only one in the photo is Al.

True. That's why I voted for Buzz.

[79Warrior]

True. That's why I voted for Buzz.

I like Wojo and think he will run a good, clean program That said, I voted for Buzz. I just loved his personality. The best "character" we have had on the sidelines since Al. Love the personality he brought to the program. Lots of my friends thought Buzz was great on the MU sidelines. I get some of the behind the scenes stuff was suspect, but when the curtain went up at game time it was always a show. I miss that. He brought energy.

[NickelDimer]

Buzz, Buzz and Buzz...and it's not even close. And this says as much about Wojo as it does Buzz

[NickelDimer]

I voted for silly polls over dopey polls.

Just curious...why are you so offended and disturbed by the thoughts and feelings of others? It seems every post of yours I've read over the past couple of days have attacked the opinion of others rather than expressing your own take. Seems like smashing your head against a wall. Just my 2 cents

[NotAnAlum]

Win at any cost or first focus on high standards then winning. That is the real issue.

Sorry but I don't think it is correct to characterize Buzz as win at any cost.  He had some guys get into trouble.  Coach K had to kick Rasheed Sulaimon off the team for problems as bad as any Buzz faced.  Is Coach K win at any cost?  How about Mark Turgeon, is he win at any cost?  Buzz bent the admission standard getting Jae into school here.  Do you wish Jae had never attended MU?  Didn't he represent the University well?  Heck in my mind Jae is the poster child for a modern day Marquette Warrior.
I voted Buzz.  I liked Buzz's quirkiness.  Listened to Buzz's radio show, I have no desire to listen to Wojo's preprogrammed coach speak.
Buzz was a very emotional guy who had an off year and let all the stuff get to him.  I think if he'd been supported he would have turned it around.
Wojo is our coach now and so I'm praying that he can turn this thing around.  So far I'd say I'm concerned about his ability to win at this level.  I hope he does.

[dgies9156]

I voted Wojo for the following:

1) I think the Hillbilly probably had peaked at Marquette. He did all he was going to do for us. The Elite 8 was special but the meltdown in his last year was hard to take.

2) The eruptions with Tim and Jeronne Maymon, Vander Blue and Iowa State's McKay, who is now their starting center, was getting to be problematic. I really disliked what we did with D.J. Newbill, especially when it turned out he was a pretty good guard in the Big 10. I thought he was poor at developing Vander Blue and the alleged shouting match between the two when Blue went pro was telling.

3) The Hillbilly was a poor developer of raw, high-school talent.

4) Conversely, Coach Wojo has shown he is a good recruiter.

5) I, perhaps optimistically, think that if Coach Wojo develops talent and grows as a coach, the Final Four and beyond is a not unreasonable limit. He's got a lot to learn and experience yet, but recall that Al had a couple of rough years in the early going as well.

Bottom line is that had the Hillbilly stayed, we'd probably be much better off at the moment than we are. But.... an investment in Wojo hopefully is a long-term investment. The problem I am having is the level of delayed gratification that I am seeing this year. I live and die by Marquette basketball and have died on more than a few occasions this year.

[Meathead]

Just curious...why are you so offended and disturbed by the thoughts and feelings of others? It seems every post of yours I've read over the past couple of days have attacked the opinion of others rather than expressing your own take. Seems like smashing your head against a wall. Just my 2 cents

Long time lurker and I've noticed this 82 poster seems to have a hard time being objective in his posting, solely critical of those who question the direction/coaching of Wojo.  I believe the term is fanboy.

[Meathead]

The fact Wojo is winning this poll 56 to 44% over Buzz indicates a real lack of objectivity here.

Buzz is 4-2 in the ACC and a whisker away from being 5-1 as they lost AT Number 31 Notre Dame by 2 points.

Also we need to be objective here and realize Providence was way overrated in the AP poll at the time we played them.  Ken Pomeroy had them at their highwater mark for the season at 33 when we played them.  They are now 46.  (Which is our only win against a Top 50 Pomeroy team.)

[CTWarrior]

I voted Buzz based on results alone.  It was more fun watching the team when he was here.  Wojo has not lost me yet, nor has he won me over.  Don't love the game coaching just yet, and not 100% sure about recruiting prowess.  He's pulled in highly rated kids, but we lack a top-flight PG, shooters and physical, athletic interior guys. 

He's done enough good things that I'm intrigued, however.  After all, he's working on only his second recruiting class.  I would give him at least two more years before I would even think about switching gears. 

[MerrittsMustache]

The fact Wojo is winning this poll 56 to 44% over Buzz indicates a real lack of objectivity here.

Buzz is 4-2 in the ACC and a whisker away from being 5-1 as they lost AT Number 31 Notre Dame by 2 points.

Also we need to be objective here and realize Providence was way overrated in the AP poll at the time we played them.  Ken Pomeroy had them at their highwater mark for the season at 33 when we played them.  They are now 46.  (Which is our only win against a Top 50 Pomeroy team.)

Exactly.

If the poll was "Who do you think is a better coach right now?" then the results would likely be different, but still skewed. The fact that Buzz left Marquette and ruffled some feathers on the way out is why many fans claim they'd rather have Wojo (even though Buzz ruffled feathers internally for years).

If Crean went on to win 5 championships at Indiana by recruiting nothing but honor roll students from Milwaukee, many MU fans would still claim that MU was better off without him.

Such is the mindset of the college basketball fan.

[GOO]

Kind of a silly poll. Why not ask, win at any cost or first focus on high standards then winning. That is the real issue. The individuals are not important, the policy choice is. To be honest not sure where some/many people stand and it is an important issue going forward.

Well said. 

Buzz:  A winner, winning teams overall.  A few down years, but he'd scramble to pull in some recruit last minute and cobble a team together year to year.  He also thought it was all about HIS team and that HIS team had little to do with the University and it was HIS team versus the University.  No real concern for graduating players or being part of the University, etc.  That became a bigger and bigger problem. Throw in a little more than a bit of crazy and Buzz had to go and he knew it and beat the push out the door (or the door was open and the nudging out the door had begun and Buzz found a way to not resist).   

Buzz:  In all his years could not get a real point guard.  Rarely had players who were good shooters. Did get athletes who would hustle for him, of the most part.

Wojo:  Still needs a quality point guard, but one of those is on the roster and just needs to develop.  Most freshman can't come in and play the point immediately.  We should be okay at the point going forward for the first time in a decade, beginning next year.

Wojo:  Isn't going to cobble a team together year to year, especially with questionable character or academics. He isn't going to bring in guys with little chance of graduating or no intention of doing so who hate school.  Sees the team as part of the University, not above it or outside of it.  Players have to be decent students and have high conduct, and have to see themselves as student athletes.  Longer term approach than season to season. 

Wojo:  Has made it clear from day one that he is going to build the program for the longer term and not just cobble a team together year to year.  For those of us paying attention, it wasn't a two year rebuilding project.  I'd put it at 4 years to get his guys as seniors and have a base of players who are developing.  Brings in a different type of player, who most often happen to be good students, have some ball skills, maybe a season or two away in strength and size, but have more skill....

I'll take Wojo.  Yes, immediate satisfaction and winning NOW are nice for us fans.  But we need some consistency and an approach that integrates the team back with the school.  We have that... even if it means a couple of rougher years.  I'm still sold on Wojo. 

I went into this season realizing we had 4 returning players and still realize it.  Expectations of some scoopers aside, 4 returning players spells some trouble unless your KY or Duke and have multiple top 25 players or get lucky. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The fact Wojo is winning this poll 56 to 44% over Buzz indicates a real lack of objectivity here.

Buzz is 4-2 in the ACC and a whisker away from being 5-1 as they lost AT Number 31 Notre Dame by 2 points.

Also we need to be objective here and realize Providence was way overrated in the AP poll at the time we played them.  Ken Pomeroy had them at their highwater mark for the season at 33 when we played them.  They are now 46.  (Which is our only win against a Top 50 Pomeroy team.)

Some people can take the long view. Buzz is like the Brewers. They patched together good teams by selling the farm year after year. It got them a few good seasons and one very good one but now they suck with no hope of being relevant for years. Were hoping Wojo is more like the Cardinals. Build a strong farm and slowly develop good players that make up championship caliber teams.

Too early to tell if Wojo can actually do that, but Im willing to give him more time before losing it.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

Buzz based on results and sheer entertainment value.

Wojo's just really boring, which is great if you're winning. Makes you look like a professional.

When you're not winning (like Wojo), it's just dull.

[Lennys Tap]

Some people can take the long view. Buzz is like the Brewers. They patched together good teams by selling the farm year after year. It got them a few good seasons and one very good one but now they suck with no hope of being relevant for years. Were hoping Wojo is more like the Cardinals. Build a strong farm and slowly develop good players that make up championship caliber teams.

Too early to tell if Wojo can actually do that, but Im willing to give him more time before losing it.

You are WAY too smart to have written this. The guy who gave us 5 consecutive NCAAs, back to back S16s followed by an Elite 8 and 8 NCAA tournament wins in 5 years...the guy who gave this program the most sustained success it has seen in 40 years...is like the freakin' Brewers? There are no farm teams in college basketball. You can't trade today's players for draft choices or high school guys. Players are all on one year contracts and the longest you can have a guy is 4 years. That's why the urgency is to win now, not tomorrow. In your scenario a coach would never recruit a Henry Ellenson - unless he's "patching a team together" for this year. Silly stuff.

If 5 NCAAs, 8 tourney wins, two S16s, an Elite 8 and 2 14 win season in the Big East in 6 seasons is the Brewers what will Wojo's next 6 (last year is a mulligan) as the mighty Cardinals bring?

 

[NickelDimer]

Some people can take the long view. Buzz is like the Brewers. They patched together good teams by selling the farm year after year. It got them a few good seasons and one very good one but now they suck with no hope of being relevant for years. Were hoping Wojo is more like the Cardinals. Build a strong farm and slowly develop good players that make up championship caliber teams.

Too early to tell if Wojo can actually do that, but Im willing to give him more time before losing it.

I'm sorry but this entire 'Buzz won but was a horrible human being who ran an embarrassing program' narrative is being so conveniently abused on this board recently. It's revisionist's history unless you're named chicos. I find it very interesting that aside from some slightly raised eyebrows Buzz was backed to the fullest until he left. Like I said, convenient

[MerrittsMustache]

Some people can take the long view. Buzz is like the Brewers. They patched together good teams by selling the farm year after year. It got them a few good seasons and one very good one but now they suck with no hope of being relevant for years. Were hoping Wojo is more like the Cardinals. Build a strong farm and slowly develop good players that make up championship caliber teams.

Too early to tell if Wojo can actually do that, but Im willing to give him more time before losing it.

You're a pretty level-headed poster and I understand the point that you're trying to make but you really missed the mark with that analogy.

Not to put words in your mouth, but my interpretation is that...

Buzz was always out to win THIS season. Next season be damned! That type of mentality can work out very well for stretches, and it obviously did for Buzz at MU, but eventually it's going to catch up to you, as it was about to for Buzz at MU.

Wojo isn't necessarily looking to perennially win THIS season. He's looking to create a basketball program that's built for sustained, long-term success. That will include some growing pains and some lean years, but if it works out as planned, the program's success won't have such little margin for error.

[Dahmerville]

Some people can take the long view. Buzz is like the Brewers. They patched together good teams by selling the farm year after year. It got them a few good seasons and one very good one but now they suck with no hope of being relevant for years. Were hoping Wojo is more like the Cardinals. Build a strong farm and slowly develop good players that make up championship caliber teams.

Too early to tell if Wojo can actually do that, but Im willing to give him more time before losing it.

Well the Cubs are the gold standard.  Cardinals, sorry, not that interesting.  I think Wojo is doing pretty well for his first mid major job.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm sorry but this entire 'Buzz won but was a horrible human being who ran an embarrassing program' narrative is being so conveniently abused on this board recently. It's revisionist's history unless you're named chicos. I find it very interesting that aside from some slightly raised eyebrows Buzz was backed to the fullest until he left. Like I said, convenient

I never said Buzz was a horrible person. I liked the guy. Hell I was labeled Grand Admiral of the Buzz Slurpers by Willie at one point. Still like the guy.

[tower912]

Buzz.   Not even that close.    Buzz had 5 years of sheer alchemy, spinning gold out of straw.   Winning without size, winning without 3 pt shooting, winning without a great PG, winning without a true center.    The first 5 years, the teams were better than the sums of their parts.   He took JUCO's and turned out NBA players.   Yes, he had flaws.     But it is going to take several years of growth on the part of Wojo before he can outcoach Buzz.   I hope he gets there and forces me to change my vote a couple of years down the road. 

[NickelDimer]

I never said Buzz was a horrible person. I liked the guy. Hell I was labeled Grand Admiral of the Buzz Slurpers by Willie at one point. Still like the guy.

Fair enough and maybe your post was a bad example given you wrote it, however the point still remains. Way too many people are now claiming Buzz won at any cost and brought nothing else to the table. The whole notion has gotten out of hand

[naginiF]

Long time lurker and I've noticed this 82 poster seems to have a hard time being objective in his posting, solely critical of those who question the direction/coaching of Wojo.  I believe the term is fanboy.

I don't find that the case with 82.  I do appreciate that he's trying to show that the "everything is horrible", "Wojo sucks", "I know better!!" (even though I make my salary in a totally unrelated field) posters that only come out when things aren't going good are WAY overly emotional/negative. 

There's a difference between being analytically critical in a post and coming off as an internet blowhard (the latter is what the Politics board is for)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

People seemed to miss the point of the brewers analogy.

Look at Buzzs recruiting classes at Marquette

2008: Joe Fulce, Chris Otule, Jimmy Butler, Liam McMorrow, Brett Roseboro
2009: Dwight Buycks, Junior Cadougan, Jeronne Maymon, Erik Williams, Yous Mbao, DJO
2010: Vander Blue, Jamail Jones, Reggie Smith, Davante Gardner, Jae Crowder
2011: Juan Anderson, Derrick Wilson, Todd Mayo, Jamil Wilson
2012: Steve Taylor, Jamal Ferguson, Trent Lockett, Jake Thomas, TJ Taylor
2013: Jajuan Johnson, Deonte Burton, Duane Wilson, Jameel McKay, John Dawson

Some numbers:
Buzz recruited 20 freshmen in 6 years
Of those 20 only 13 made it to their second year at MU. (4 of the 13 had their second year with Wojo)
Of the 13, only 7 made it to their senior year (assuming JJJ and Duane stay). Thats barely 1 a year
Of the 7, one was a stud (davante), four were good (otule, junior, jjj, duane), two were some of the most criticized players in MU history (derrick, juan)

Buzz recruited 10 transfers/jucos in 6 years
Of those 10, 8 made made it to their senior year
Of those 8, 3 were studs (JFB, DJO, Jae), 4 were good (Fulce, Buycks, Lockett, amd Jamil) and 1 was bad (Jake)

To no ones surprise, Buzzs best players were jucos and transfers. And that was great! I enjoyed his run as much as anybody not named chicos. The problem is, when you rely that heavily on non 4 year players you have to replace them constantly. You are completely reliant on continued recruiting more of them because you cant fall back on hs players that youve developed. Fortunately, Buzz was nearly perfect for years at finding a juco or transfer to fill the necessary holes. It also helped that he was a bit of a mad coaching genius. 2010 is still the most impressive coaching job I have ever seen. But by the end, Buzz had enough recruiting miscues that we tripped. McKay left, TJ Taylor left, Duane got hurt, JJJ wasnt as good as advertised, Blue went pro. Not all of this was Buzzs fault of course but because he didnt have a back up plan we sucked. And looking ahead, Im not convinced that his 2014 class would have come close to saving us. JJJ and Taylor would have been gone for sure. I think Burton and Dawson would have still left. Pierce was nothing special and the trio of Cohen, Hill, and Shayok would have needed at least a year of development maybe more.

The point of the analogy had nothing to do with the quality or success of the brewers vs. the Cardinals. I was comparing the styles. From 2007 to 2014 the Brewers were very good at winning right now, future be damned. Buzz was the same way. Which is fine! As long as you can keep finding the right pieces who are immediate contributors. When you dont, you fall hard. Wojo seems to be taking the approach of rebuilding with HS kids and plugging in JUCOs and transfers when necessary. In theory, it will suck at the beginning but lead to long sustainable success.

I like Wojos approach better in theory. Im still waiting to see if he can actually pull it off.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Buzz.   Not even that close.    Buzz had 5 years of sheer alchemy, spinning gold out of straw.   Winning without size, winning without 3 pt shooting, winning without a great PG, winning without a true center.    The first 5 years, the teams were better than the sums of their parts.   He took JUCO's and turned out NBA players.   Yes, he had flaws.     But it is going to take several years of growth on the part of Wojo before he can outcoach Buzz.   I hope he gets there and forces me to change my vote a couple of years down the road.

I definitely agree that I prefer Buzz as an in game coach. Mad genius.

[WarriorPride68]

I like Wojos approach better in theory. Im still waiting to see if he can actually pull it off.

.....Wojo offered 4 grad transfers this past off season (Gielo, Johnson, Lee, Miller). He then offered atleast 2 JUCO's for 2016 in J-Rivers & D-Willis. & in addition he took in 2 transfers in Rowsey & Wally + went extremely hard after another in Kyle Washington.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

.....Wojo offered 4 grad transfers this past off season (Gielo, Johnson, Lee, Miller). He then offered atleast 2 JUCO's for 2016 in J-Rivers & D-Willis. & in addition he took in 2 transfers in Rowsey & Wally + went extremely hard after another in Kyle Washington.

Yeah...like I said, plugging in jucos and transfers to fill holes. Any one of those could have helped us this year. Its not like Wojo was going to take all 4 grad transfers if they said yes.