Attacks in France

[Tugg Speedman]

I disagree. It won't be whack-a mole if it is devastating and overwhelming. The Japanese vowed to fight to the last person standing on their homeland in WW2. The 2 devastating attacks changed their thinking completely.

Remember, I am not talking a GWB action here. I am talking utter destruction of ISIS villages (and every one in them) where they have their headquarters. Scorched earth policy in any area where they reside.

There is no "war" to be fought. These are small pockets of people in many different countries. Unless you are advocating a new world war.

The problem is ISIS hides in the civilian population.  They want armies of Christians killing innocent Muslims by the thousands.  Why?  As noted here, most Muslims are peaceful and perfer these extremists would go away.  However, note that the peaceful Muslim, by and large, really just look the other way.  They are not trying very hard to stop it.  ISIS is betting that a brutal campaign of Christian Armies against innocent Muslims will create and unleash tens of millions of Jihadis.

Added

This is why I said these attacks in the west are designed to drag us in deeper.  That is what they want.

So while I agree we go in, understand what we are committing to, understand its cost and understand it means changing the very course of human history.

Do not confuse this with the spoiled Children at Mizzou and black lives matter that we will tire of one day and that will all end.  This is very serious, it is this generations WW2 and will have the same (or larger) consequences to the course of human history.

[GGGG]

The problem is ISIS hides in the civilian population.  They want armies of Christians killing innocent Muslims by the thousands.  Why?  As noted here, most Muslims are peaceful and perfer this extremist would go away.  However, note that the peaceful Muslim, by and large, really just look the other way.  They are not trying very hard to stop it.  ISIS is betting that a brutal campaign of Christian Armies against innocent Muslims will create and unleash tens of millions of Jihadis.

You are correct.  A killing of thousands in response to a killing of hundreds I don't think is really the Christian way anyhow. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Remember this?  They got lucky those three Americans were on this train or this guy would have killed scores of people. 

That marks three large scale jihadi attacks in Paris this year (first being Charlie Hebdo).  Each was designed to be bigger than the last.  A trend has been established.

France is struggling with a big Muslim problem ... 10% of the population is Muslim and they are very disaffected living in slums in the Paris Suburbs).

So does Paris, and the world, have to come to terms with the idea that the next attack will kill 500 or more and it is 3 to 4 months away?

---------

August 21, 2015
France train attack: Americans overpower gunman on Paris express
Police investigate incident near Arras, France, in which three US citizens – two of them soldiers – prevented attack by suspect reportedly armed with AK-47

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/21/amsterdam-paris-train-gunman-france

[jesmu84]

Remember this?  They got lucky those three Americans were on this train or this guy would have killed scores of people. 

That marks three large scale jihadi attacks in Paris this year (first being Charlie Hebdo).  Each was designed to be bigger than the last.  A trend has been established.

France is struggling with a big Muslim problem ... 10% of the population is Muslim and they are very disaffected living in slums in the Paris Suburbs).

So does Paris, and the world, have to come to terms with the idea that the next attack will kill 500 or more and it is 3 to 4 months away?

---------

August 21, 2015
France train attack: Americans overpower gunman on Paris express
Police investigate incident near Arras, France, in which three US citizens – two of them soldiers – prevented attack by suspect reportedly armed with AK-47

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/21/amsterdam-paris-train-gunman-france

What was the second large scale attack?

[Tugg Speedman]

What was the second large scale attack?

The Magazine Charlie Hebdo in January.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Magazine Charlie Hebdo in January.

When I was in Paris in June with my mom and sister, there was a definite stepped up police and military presence at some venues.  Eiffel Tower, some of the religious sites, etc.  However, I was also surprised that some venues had nothing at all, at least outwardly (perhaps undercover, etc).

The attacks yesterday, both happened within 1,000 meters of our hotel at the Republique.  The Bataclan was about 700 meters from our hotel and we walked down that street several times.  Very sad.  Looks like at least one of the terrorists was a refugee from Syria.  You wonder how many more have penetrated via open borders in Europe and here in the States.

[Coleman]

Our esteemed sheriff weighing in:
https://twitter.com/SheriffClarke/status/665373128386846720

David A. Clarke, Jr. ‏@SheriffClarke  13h13 hours ago
If GOP plays this politically smart they can end any chance that the Dems win the WH in 2016.  War is politics carried on by other means.

What a disgrace.

[Eldon]

The problem is ISIS hides in the civilian population.  They want armies of Christians killing innocent Muslims by the thousands.  Why?  As noted here, most Muslims are peaceful and perfer these extremists would go away.  However, note that the peaceful Muslim, by and large, really just look the other way.  They are not trying very hard to stop it.  ISIS is betting that a brutal campaign of Christian Armies against innocent Muslims will create and unleash tens of millions of Jihadis.

Added

This is why I said these attacks in the west are designed to drag us in deeper.  That is what they want.

So while I agree we go in, understand what we are committing to, understand its cost and understand it means changing the very course of human history.

Do not confuse this with the spoiled Children at Mizzou and black lives matter that we will tire of one day and that will all end.  This is very serious, it is this generations WW2 and will have the same (or larger) consequences to the course of human history.

I'm curious as to why do you keep framing this as Christian vs Muslim armies?

ISIS doesn't seem to have a particular bone to pick with Christianity.  ISIS didn't attack France because of its religion/religious history (currently only about 1/3 of French people are religious).  Notice that the terrorists didn't shoot up a church.  ISIS doesn't care if the infidels are Christian, Hindu, or Secular. 

The proper framing, IMO, is ISIS vs. Everyone

[jesmu84]

The Magazine Charlie Hebdo in January.

I thought you said they were the first?

Can you please list the 3 large scale attacks?

[Tugg Speedman]

I thought you said they were the first?

Can you please list the 3 large scale attacks?

1. Charlie Hebdo in January
2. The train attack in August, they got lucky the three Americans stopped it or he would have killed scores.
3. Yesterday in Paris

[jesmu84]

1. Charlie Hebdo in January
2. The train attack in August, they got lucky the three Americans stopped it or he would have killed scores.
3. Yesterday in Paris

Got it.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm curious as to why do you keep framing this as Christian vs Muslim armies?

ISIS doesn't seem to have a particular bone to pick with Christianity.  ISIS didn't attack France because of its religion/religious history (currently only about 1/3 of French people are religious).  Notice that the terrorists didn't shoot up a church.  ISIS doesn't care if the infidels are Christian, Hindu, or Secular. 

The proper framing, IMO, is ISIS vs. Everyone

ISIS, and Al-Qaeda before them want to rid the world of infidels.  Yes that is all non-Muslim.  To them it is a religious war.  To us, that is unpleasant, so we pretend it is not a religious war even though the other side thinks it is.

Currently their is a large Christian genocide underway in the Middle East and Africa.  (Dafur, that all the lefties championed, was/is a Christian genocide).  Boko haram in Nigeria is conducting a Christian genocide (the 400 girls that were kidnapped that Michelle Obama started #bringbackourgirls were Christian.  They never came back, most were sold into slavery and some of the very young impressible types are being trained as sucide bombers.). ISIS has been committing mass genocide against Christians, hardly any exist in their territory (except the Kurds because they are well armed).

I understand we want to think this is a war of profit and not of ideology.  That makes it easier for us to understand.  So we think "raising the cost" by dropping a few bombs will end it. 

It is much more than this.  The only question is how many more attacks will it take for us to understand?  And understand their goal with these attacks is to drag us in.  They want us killing them as they think that will get the entire Muslim world to rise up against the infidels.

They only way this does not get really messy is if other Muslims are willing to take them out.  So far none are interested.

[brandx]

You are correct.  A killing of thousands in response to a killing of hundreds I don't think is really the Christian way anyhow.

Of course, you are correct. The problem lies in the fact that Muslims will not fight against ISIS even though ISIS' numbers are fairly small. Until that changes, we are helpless.

And the point is not revenge - "A killing of thousands in response to a killing of hundreds". The point is that the tone has to change. There need to be devastating consequences for terror attacks. Not a drone killing 10 people, but scorched earth type devastation. The Iraqi and Syrian armies need to learn that THEY need to go in and root these people out, because a lot less people will die that way.

Again, as I have said before, I am probably the biggest pacifist on this board.

But pacifism does not mean lying down when war is declared against you. Rather it is doing anything necessary to end the war as quickly as possible to prevent a further loss of life. It is soul-numbing that we used atomic bombs on civilian populations in 1945. But it ended what would have been a much worse carnage.

I am not advocating for a nuclear strike, but our response must be so devastating, that it will no longer be worth it for these people to continue. And to be that convincing, it must be massive and devastating.

[Blackhat]

The only thing that will come from this is more job security for event staff.   People are so mind controlled by media and thus unwilling to be labeled as mean.  They will not stop immigration into their country from a population that does not like them or their culture.   Hence these attacks will continue. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Looks like France is gonna be attacking ISIS full on. Could be the closest thing we get to WWIII

[ChicosBailBonds]

Looks like France is gonna be attacking ISIS full on. Could be the closest thing we get to WWIII

Please...the French haven't attacked anything full on in any meaningful way in hundreds of years....at least not effectively.  With Holland at the helm, it isn't going to happen now either.  It will be measured approach...."containment".  No one wants to do the big boy stuff anymore.

[GGGG]

Of course, you are correct. The problem lies in the fact that Muslims will not fight against ISIS even though ISIS' numbers are fairly small. Until that changes, we are helpless.

Muslims have been fighting against ISIS.  Of course those Muslims are backed by Iran so we have reason to be wary.  But Muslims have been fighting.  They simply may not be strong enough.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Muslims have been fighting against ISIS.  Of course those Muslims are backed by Iran so we have reason to be wary.  But Muslims have been fighting.  They simply may not be strong enough.

This I agree with.  It is one of the reasons I think taking on immigrants is wrong.  That sounds terrible, but here's my rationale.  If you refuse to take on immigrants, you force those being oppressed to do one of two things.  Lay down and get butchered, or stand up and take it to the enemy, demand their gov'ts do something, etc, etc.  It means bloodshed, and that's why people aren't willing to do it.

Instead, the borders are open, the oppressors win, PLUS they drive more terrorists as trojan horses throughout Europe AND destabilize the general population.  People better wake up soon.

[Jay Bee]

Morbidly, I'm surprised this kind of attack isn't commonplace.  A few guys with guns and lots of ammo.  The suicide vests are hard to source, sure, but frankly unnecessary.   Walk into a theater, arena, mall or school with lots of victims.  Very little planning and resources necessary.  Just need the jihadis and a few hundred bucks.

Utter chaos and doom.

Yes. Surprised we don't see it at sporting events, Betty Brinn, wherever else... I fear that time will come and turn things upside down.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Morbidly, I'm surprised this kind of attack isn't commonplace.  A few guys with guns and lots of ammo.  The suicide vests are hard to source, sure, but frankly unnecessary.   Walk into a theater, arena, mall or school with lots of victims.  Very little planning and resources necessary.  Just need the jihadis and a few hundred bucks.

Utter chaos and doom.

Which is exactly why so many of us support conceal carry or open carry, because when that starts to happen it will be 10 to 15 minutes for the police to arrive.  You're dead.   Yesterday's episode, took police 14 minutes to arrive....80+ dead, many more in critical condition.  No thanks...I have better odds defending myself.

[4everwarriors]

Yes. Surprised we don't see it at sporting events, Betty Brinn, wherever else... I fear that time will come and turn things upside down.

Don't be shoppin' da Mall of America on Black Friday, hey?

[Hards Alumni]

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/?utm_source=SFTwitter

Interesting read.

[mu_hilltopper]

Which is exactly why so many of us support conceal carry or open carry, because when that starts to happen it will be 10 to 15 minutes for the police to arrive.  You're dead.   Yesterday's episode, took police 14 minutes to arrive....80+ dead, many more in critical condition.  No thanks...I have better odds defending myself.

And .. I can conceive how that conclusion can make some sense.   Do you pack heat, Chicos?

I remember a week after Sandy Hook, I was at my son's 1st grade holiday singing event with 400 other parents and just looked around thinking, man, a bad guy with a gun would mow us all down.  I sure hope the gym teacher is packing heat right now.

But that's the thing .. I'm not buying a gun, and even if I did, I wouldn't be trotting it down to the Bradley Center or school or the grocery when .. you'd need it.  Not to mention none of those places allow guns on premises.

Then there's the question .. Would it be a great idea to have ~50 guys watching Eagles of Death Metal be packing heat?  Holy fck no.

In the end, most of us "innocents" want to outsource security to someone else.  But just take a moment and think about mostly untrained concealed carry folks (or especially the open carriers) and hoping those bozos are near you when the ISIS rodeo starts.   .. "Better than nothing" is about the best argument that can be made.

There's not a lot of good solutions when civilization breaks down.

[Benny B]

This I agree with.  It is one of the reasons I think taking on immigrants is wrong.  That sounds terrible, but here's my rationale.  If you refuse to take on immigrants, you force those being oppressed to do one of two things.  Lay down and get butchered, or stand up and take it to the enemy, demand their gov'ts do something, etc, etc.  It means bloodshed, and that's why people aren't willing to do it.

Instead, the borders are open, the oppressors win, PLUS they drive more terrorists as trojan horses throughout Europe AND destabilize the general population.  People better wake up soon.

What bothers me is that the only people willing to die for their cause are the enemy and our military. Yet we can't use our military to fight the enemy because, well, there's an election in 12 months and the hippies won't show up to the polls unless we keep trying to give peace a chance (lot of good that's done, huh?)

It didn't used to be like that. Thank God that our citizenry had a different perspective on life back in the late 1700s.  Mostly that they didn't tolerate hippies.... oh, and they were wiling to hang together, too.

[GGGG]

What bothers me is that the only people willing to die for their cause are the enemy and our military. Yet we can't use our military to fight the enemy because, well, there's an election in 12 months and the hippies won't show up to the polls unless we keep trying to give peace a chance (lot of good that's done, huh?)

It didn't used to be like that. Thank God that our citizenry had a different perspective on life back in the late 1700s.  Mostly that they didn't tolerate hippies.... oh, and they were wiling to hang together, too.

Actually what people don't want is war where the costs exceed the benefits.  Or where the benefits were exaggerated to begin with.  "Hippies" didn't just come into existence for no reason.