Attacks in France

[Eldon]

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/?utm_source=SFTwitter

Interesting read.

"Interesting" does not do that article justice.  That may be one of the greatest (insightful and matter-of-fact) pieces of journalism that I have ever read.  Thanks for posting.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually what people don't want is war where the costs exceed the benefits.  Or where the benefits were exaggerated to begin with.  "Hippies" didn't just come into existence for no reason.

There are hippies that say war is never the answer......apparently they thought Nazism was awesome.

[warriorchick]

There are hippies that say war is never the answer......apparently they thought Nazism was awesome.

[Hards Alumni]

"Interesting" does not do that article justice.  That may be one of the greatest (insightful and matter-of-fact) pieces of journalism that I have ever read.  Thanks for posting.

+1  Its long, but it is the best article that I have read all year.

[GGGG]

There are hippies that say war is never the answer......apparently they thought Nazism was awesome.

You managed to Godwin the post in just over 72 minutes.  Figures.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yup.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You managed to Godwin the post in just over 72 minutes.  Figures.

Methinks you don't know what Godwin means, because of the context in which I used it I know that to be the case.  The comment was about some people saying WAR IS NEVER the answer, and yes...those people exist.

[GGGG]

Methinks you don't know what Godwin means, because of the context in which I used it I know that to be the case.  The comment was about some people saying WAR IS NEVER the answer, and yes...those people exist.

Right.  But that was never my point.

[Pakuni]

Please...the French haven't attacked anything full on in any meaningful way in hundreds of years....at least not effectively.  With Holland at the helm, it isn't going to happen now either.  It will be measured approach...."containment".  No one wants to do the big boy stuff anymore.

Perhaps you need to read up a little more on World War I, when the French fought with remarkable courage, despite the overwhelming advantages the Germans had in personnel, weaponry, technology and resources.

[Pakuni]

Of course, you are correct. The problem lies in the fact that Muslims will not fight against ISIS even though ISIS' numbers are fairly small. Until that changes, we are helpless.

Muslim Kurds are fighting ISIS (and just captured a key city in Iraq).
Muslim Iraqis are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Syrians (both pro- and anti-Assad) are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Turks are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Iranians are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Lebanese are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Jordanians are fighting ISIS.

The notion that Muslims "will not fight" against ISIS is simply and provably false. Muslims are fighting ISIS in far greater numbers and at far greater costs than the U.S., Russia or any European nation.
As God awful as the events in Paris Friday, that bloodshed pales in comparison to the havoc ISIS has wrought on fellow Muslims in the regions it controls.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Muslim Kurds are fighting ISIS (and just captured a key city in Iraq).
Muslim Iraqis are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Syrians (both pro- and anti-Assad) are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Turks are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Iranians are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Lebanese are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Jordanians are fighting ISIS.

The notion that Muslims "will not fight" against ISIS is simply and provably false. Muslims are fighting ISIS in far greater numbers and at far greater costs than the U.S., Russia or any European nation.
As God awful as the events in Paris Friday, that bloodshed pales in comparison to the havoc ISIS has wrought on fellow Muslims in the regions it controls.

+ 1

[brandx]

Muslim Kurds are fighting ISIS (and just captured a key city in Iraq).
Muslim Iraqis are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Syrians (both pro- and anti-Assad) are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Turks are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Iranians are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Lebanese are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Jordanians are fighting ISIS.

The notion that Muslims "will not fight" against ISIS is simply and provably false. Muslims are fighting ISIS in far greater numbers and at far greater costs than the U.S., Russia or any European nation.
As God awful as the events in Paris Friday, that bloodshed pales in comparison to the havoc ISIS has wrought on fellow Muslims in the regions it controls.

Pak, it's my fault that I wasn't clear in what I was saying. Yes, there are Muslims fighting against ISIS. I was referring to Muslim governments fighting against ISIS. Iran is the only one that I see that is actively fighting them. There are local gov'ts and tribes getting together to fight, but there is no push by the Iraqi gov't or the Syrian gov't to fight ISIS.

The Iraqi government has accepted only a fraction of fighting vehicles the U.S. has offered to provide it, indicating leaders in Baghdad holding their country together amid the Islamic State group onslaught may be trying to appease multiple groups. We offered them over 3,000 fighting vehicles that we had stored in Kuwait for them to use to fight ISIS. They took a small token amount - under 10% and didn't want the rest. Maliki is much more interested in keeping power than he is in fighting ISIS. It is thought that the vehicles he did take are for his own protection and not for fighting ISIS.

In Syria, Assad ignored ISIS even as they got more powerful. Finally, in the last 6 weeks or so, he is starting to see that he is threatened by ISIS and may finally be willing to fight.

Saudi Arabia is too concerned about its fight for dominance in the Middle East with Iran to pay attention to ISIS. The Saudis backed rebel fighters in Syria over our objections because they believe overthrowing Assad is the only way to defeat Syria.

Turkey has convinced NATO nations that the war against ISIS can only be won if Turkey’s traditional Kurdish opponents are neutralized first.

Israel sees only one way to defeat ISIS: destroy Iran’s nuclear program.

And Egypt? They threates to undermine the fight against ISIS completely over their own government's self-preservation.


So, it's all quite simple:

Saudi Arabia proposes first dislodging President Assad in Syria, one of ISIS’s principal enemies, which will in turn strengthen the Islamic State. That may seem like a step backward, but fear not: There’s more. The Saudis will then attack Yemen to defeat the Houthis, who are allied with Iran. This will distract Iran in its fight against ISIS. The Kingdom will also draw other Arab countries away from U.S.-led airstrikes against the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq so that these states can participate in Saudi-led strikes in Yemen. Where, you ask, does defeating ISIS fit into all this? Return to the start of this paragraph.

Turkey has advanced the idea that defeating ISIS will require attacking the Kurdish factions who are doing the most to fight the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, thereby easing the pressure on ISIS. The Turks will then offset this by alsodemanding the removal of Assad, and by asking their Western allies to deflect resources away from fighting ISIS and toward creating a “safe zone” in Syria. Turkey will subsequently move to weaken Western and NATO support for Kurdish fighters, turning the Kurds into both an ally and enemy of the West. This will so utterly confuse ISIS that the group will commit major strategic mistakes.

The Kurds believe the only way to defeat ISIS is to fight it. It’s a disappointingly simple strategy.

Iran’s plan for defeating ISIS relies heavily on arming Shia groups, thus giving the impression that the war against ISIS is a Sunni-Shia conflict. While this might appear to bolster ISIS’s propagandistic claims that it is defending Sunnis against Shia aggression, Iran will dispel this illusion by encouraging non-Shia groups battling ISIS to also fight under Shia banners.

Israel’s blueprint is quite straightforward by comparison: ISIS can only be defeated after Iran, which is fighting ISIS, is contained and defeated. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu cleverly unified these aims by calling Iran “the Islamic State of Iran.” No other leader has ever tried to conduct geopolitics through wordplay before, but the strategy seems to be gaining momentum. The popularity of the phrase “the ISIS of …” to describe things one hates attests to the resonance of this approach. Israel plans to escalate its anti-ISIS campaign by referring to anyone who opposes Israel as “ISIS,” including Hamas (the ISIS of Gaza), Hezbollah (the ISIS of Lebanon), and Sweden (the ISIS of Scandinavia).

America’s strategy is substantially different from everyone else’s. President Barack Obama wants to defeat ISIS by not appearing to be the force defeating ISIS. This is a difficult task, particularly when your air force is the one carrying out most operations against ISIS targets. But Obama is an astute strategist. His plan centers on supporting Kurdish factions as he also supports Turkey which is now attacking the Kurds while also supporting Saudi Arabia in its war in Yemen which upsets Iran whom U.S. forces are collaborating with in fighting ISIS in Iraq as he simultaneously yields to pressure from allies to weaken Assad in Syria which complicates things further with Iran which he pacifies by signing the nuclear deal upsetting America’s traditional friend Israel whose anger is absorbed with shipments of advanced weapons escalating the arms race in the region.



So yes, there are PEOPLE fighting ISIS. But Muslim governments - for the most part - are not.

[Tugg Speedman]

Muslim Kurds are fighting ISIS (and just captured a key city in Iraq).
Muslim Iraqis are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Syrians (both pro- and anti-Assad) are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Turks are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Iranians are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Lebanese are fighting ISIS.
Muslim Jordanians are fighting ISIS.

So yes, there are PEOPLE fighting ISIS. But Muslim governments - for the most part - are not.

Brandx is correct.  If Pakuni's list was a list of Muslim GOVERNMENTS fighting ISIS, they would not exist.  Instead we have selected groups (mainly that hate Sunnis) fighting them which is why ISIS controls a territory in Iraq/Syria larger than the size of Great Britain.

[PBRme]

Actually what people don't want is war where the costs exceed the benefits.  Or where the benefits were exaggerated to begin with.  "Hippies" didn't just come into existence for no reason.

I think LSD had a lot to do with it

[Pakuni]

Brandx is correct.  If Pakuni's list was a list of Muslim GOVERNMENTS fighting ISIS, they would not exist.  Instead we have selected groups (mainly that hate Sunnis) fighting them which is why ISIS controls a territory in Iraq/Syria larger than the size of Great Britain.

Muslim GOVERNMENTS fighting ISIS:
Syria (obviously)
Turkey
Iraq (obviously)
Jordan
Iran
United Arab Emirates
Bahrain
Saudi Arabia is not "fighting," but providing training facilities for the Syrian opposition

[brandx]

Muslim GOVERNMENTS fighting ISIS:
Syria (obviously)
Turkey
Iraq (obviously)
Jordan
Iran
United Arab Emirates
Bahrain
Saudi Arabia is not "fighting," but providing training facilities for the Syrian opposition

You need qualifiers for all of these, Pakuni - even Iran. And even there, it is just part of an overall battle to be the dominant player in the Middle East.

[Pakuni]

You need qualifiers for all of these, Pakuni - even Iran. And even there, it is just part of an overall battle to be the dominant player in the Middle East.

With all due respect, it sounds like you're the one in need of qualifiers to defend your previous statement.
Fact is, all these countries are and have been involved in actual fighting against ISIS. This, again, is demonstratively true.
It seems you want to place qualifiers on the level of and/or motivations for their involvement.

And do you truly believe that the non-Muslim countries involved (Russia, U.S., etc.) are doing it out of purely altruistic motives, or might they also have some self-interest and desire to become a dominant player in the Middle East?

[Benny B]

You managed to Godwin the post in just over 72 minutes.  Figures.

Actually, if you're going to cite Godwin, you've got to give it to Hards... after all, he did post the link to the article that contained reference to Hitler.

[brandx]

With all due respect, it sounds like you're the one in need of qualifiers to defend your previous statement.
Fact is, all these countries are and have been involved in actual fighting against ISIS. This, again, is demonstratively true.
It seems you want to place qualifiers on the level of and/or motivations for their involvement.

And do you truly believe that the non-Muslim countries involved (Russia, U.S., etc.) are doing it out of purely altruistic motives, or might they also have some self-interest and desire to become a dominant player in the Middle East?

What I think you are missing is context. Everything in the Middle East now needs to be seen through the lens of a contest between Iran and Saudi Arabia for dominance in the region. That is the reason they are both involved in the fight against ISIS.

For Iran, it is a Sunni- Shia deal. Simple as that. They are not anti-terrorism. They, along with Saudi arabia, are among the world's biggest sponsors of terrorism. Iran views this as a Sunni-Shia conflict.

Saudi Arabia, meanwhile, is a player because they don't want Iran being the guy-in-charge.

Iraq is fighting (what little fighting they are doing) only for the preservation of the Maliki government. And Iraq is fighting more because so much of the country is opposed to Maliki.

Turkey is using the fight against ISIS for the same reason it does almost everything - to fight the Kurds.

The Kurds - who may have the best intentions - are still fighting for self-preservation.

So there will be no organized Middle East effort to rid themselves of ISIS - now or in the future.


As far as non-muslim countries involved, I agree with you completely.

[brandx]

Brandx is correct.  If Pakuni's list was a list of Muslim GOVERNMENTS fighting ISIS, they would not exist.  Instead we have selected groups (mainly that hate Sunnis) fighting them which is why ISIS controls a territory in Iraq/Syria larger than the size of Great Britain.

Glad we got our one point that we will agree on for the week out of the way quickly.

[Tugg Speedman]

Muslim GOVERNMENTS fighting ISIS:
Syria (obviously)
Turkey
Iraq (obviously)
Jordan
Iran
United Arab Emirates
Bahrain
Saudi Arabia is not "fighting," but providing training facilities for the Syrian opposition

If this is true, they are all failing and eventually all these countries fall and become part of the Caliphate.

[Hards Alumni]

Perhaps you need to read up a little more on World War I, when the French fought with remarkable courage, despite the overwhelming advantages the Germans had in personnel, weaponry, technology and resources.

ELAN!

[Hards Alumni]

Actually, if you're going to cite Godwin, you've got to give it to Hards... after all, he did post the link to the article that contained reference to Hitler.

lol I KNEW someone would see that!

[naginiF]

ELAN!

And ANYTHING that happened outside of Belgium in the first 5 months of WWI......the French basically saved the world.

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History "Blueprint for Armageddon" podcast episodes on iTunes (thanks to Scooper rmi) does an amazing job of showing this.

[Hards Alumni]

And ANYTHING that happened outside of Belgium in the first 5 months of WWI......the French basically saved the world.

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History "Blueprint for Armageddon" podcast episodes on iTunes (thanks to Scooper rmi) does an amazing job of showing this.

They were courageous, but god damn they were stupid.  The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman is a great (if dry at times) recap of the start of the war.