Ben Howland

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

It's a good thing the season starts in 4 days. The offseason threads have really run their course.

[Tugg Speedman]

2014:
Sandy, #98

2015:
Henry, #11
Cheatham, #78
T.Carter, #90

2016:
Hauser, #133

2016/2018 B.Bailey, #48

So using Rivals and assuming Bailey is 2016 (for these purposes), Howland has 6 top 100 2015/2016 recruits (Whiterspoon was 116) and Wojo has 5 (and is still not done with 2016).

Where is the uptick in Howland over Wojo?

[brewcity77]

Where is the uptick in Howland over Wojo?

There are two arguments I can think of. Howland is a proven coach. When it comes to on court coaching (something many have questioned Wojo on) you know Howland is top notch. Second, for a fanbase that is always looking over its shoulder when it comes to coaches, it seems far more likely that Howland (58 years old) is going to retire from his current job than Wojo (39 years old).

Personally, I'd take Wojo. I think he has more upside and frankly I am just not a fan of the way Howland has run things in the past. I will happily take the players' coach that creates an environment guys want to be in rather than the mercurial disciplinarian that treats his stars differently than his bench and allows bullying.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It's a good thing the season starts in 4 days. The offseason threads have really run their course.

I know I contribute to it but I couldn't agree with you more

[Tugg Speedman]

There are two arguments I can think of. Howland is a proven coach. When it comes to on court coaching (something many have questioned Wojo on) you know Howland is top notch. Second, for a fanbase that is always looking over its shoulder when it comes to coaches, it seems far more likely that Howland (58 years old) is going to retire from his current job than Wojo (39 years old).

Personally, I'd take Wojo. I think he has more upside and frankly I am just not a fan of the way Howland has run things in the past. I will happily take the players' coach that creates an environment guys want to be in rather than the mercurial disciplinarian that treats his stars differently than his bench and allows bullying.

I agree with this.  But this thread is about Howland being a master recruiter, implying he is much better than Wojo.  The numbers are not really bearing that out.  They are both pretty close to each other.

[GGGG]

See Ben Howland, Rick Pitino, Roy Williams, Bob Knight, etc. That's embarrassing for an institution. Getting your a$$ handed to you on national television sucks but it happens. People accept that.

I have never been embarrassed about our loss to Kansas in the Final Four.  I would be embarrassed if Marquette had an assistant coach hiring hookers for our recruits. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

It's a good thing the season starts in 4 days. The offseason threads have really run their course.

Howland is evil and must be destroyed

[NavinRJohnson]

I have never been embarrassed about our loss to Kansas in the Final Four.  I would be embarrassed if Marquette had an assistant coach hiring hookers for our recruits.

Why would you be embarrassed? If anyone is so invested in a sport/team, that they allow themselves to be personally embarrassed by the actions of a coach or program, the coach or the program are not the problem, that individual is.

The list of "embarrassing" coaches, programs, players, etc. is long and exhaustive, whether we are talking NCAA, NFL, MLB, etc. Those negative acts do not reflect on you as a fan anymore than winning or "doing things the right way" does. People who use the terms, we, our, us, etc. in reference to the teams they cheer for, set themselves up for disappointment, that inevitably comes along at some point. Wearing team colors does not mean you are part of the team. It's all professional sports. It's entertainment, and it is driven by money. Rick Pitino, Wojo, Tom Crean, Patrick Kane, Ray Rice, Lamar Odom...do not represent you or your families. They are not your friends. We don't even know them. We know what we see on TV. They are paid to make money for their employers. The sooner people accept that, the sooner they will stop being disappointed or "embarrassed" time after time.

[WarriorPride68]

But this thread is about Howland being a master recruiter, implying he is much better than Wojo.

Here is how I said:

He was hit or miss on Scoop when Howland wanted the Marquette job.

Can't help but notice what he's doing in Starksville of all places; 7 top 100 (2015 & 2016) commits before coaching a game.

Were there ever NCAA infractions broken when Howland was at UCLA or Pitt? I recall the SI article, but was he ever punished for that?
--------------------------------------------

Wojo is the man. I was just wondering how & why he ended up in Starksville. Subsequent follow up posts have cleared that up.

[naginiF]

Why would you be embarrassed? If anyone is so invested in a sport/team, that they allow themselves to be personally embarrassed by the actions of a coach or program, the coach or the program are not the problem, that individual is.

To a certain extent i'd be embarrassed too.  Your university experience helps in shaping who you are as an adult and people have expectations on you based (partially) on those developmental experiences.  If i wasn't proud of the influence Marquette had on me I wouldn't wear the shirt/fly the flag/root for the team.

If one of your developmental influences is perceived as corrupt, egregiously fallible, or just plain lackadaisical it tarnishes your connection to the institution.

Would a Louisville or UNC like situation at MU change who i am? No.  But i wouldn't broadcast my association with MU as much. 

[GGGG]

Why would you be embarrassed? If anyone is so invested in a sport/team, that they allow themselves to be personally embarrassed by the actions of a coach or program, the coach or the program are not the problem, that individual is.

Because they represent my alma mater.  Getting your doors blown off on a competitive field happens.  No biggie.  Having people employed by my alma mater, one I am proud to say I graduated from, engage in illegal activity to improve the basketball program, is embarrassing to me.

[keefe]

Because they represent my alma mater.  Getting your doors blown off on a competitive field happens.  No biggie.  Having people employed by my alma mater, one I am proud to say I graduated from, engage in illegal activity to improve the basketball program, is embarrassing to me.

We took it one step further: we stopped giving to one Marquette program because of what my wife witnessed.

We weren't embarrassed by Crean's behavior as an employee of the University - we were disgusted.

[NavinRJohnson]

Because they represent my alma mater.  Getting your doors blown off on a competitive field happens.  No biggie.  Having people employed by my alma mater, one I am proud to say I graduated from, engage in illegal activity to improve the basketball program, is embarrassing to me.

I understand what you're saying, but I guess that's where we see things differently. That basketball program (as with all) should really be considered a separate for-profit entity. A marketing tool. The basketball program is about as much a part of Marquette University (Louisville, Wisconsin, UK, UCLA, etc.), as the Milwaukee Bucks. Ok, I know that's an exaggeration, but college athletics really needs to be viewed as the professional sport that it is. It happens to bear the same name, but that's really where the similarities end.

I would be no more embarrassed by some scandal involving MU's bball team, as I would by the Green Bay Packers. I follow for the entertainment value, but they don't represent me in any way. A hooker/recruit scandal would not diminish my education, nor devalue my experience one but.

[MerrittsMustache]

I understand what you're saying, but I guess that's where we see things differently. That basketball program (as with all) should really be considered a separate for-profit entity. A marketing tool. The basketball program is about as much a part of Marquette University (Louisville, Wisconsin, UK, UCLA, etc.), as the Milwaukee Bucks. Ok, I know that's an exaggeration, but college athletics really needs to be viewed as the professional sport that it is. It happens to bear the same name, but that's really where the similarities end.

I would be no more embarrassed by some scandal involving MU's bball team, as I would by the Green Bay Packers. I follow for the entertainment value, but they don't represent me in any way. A hooker/recruit scandal would not diminish my education, nor devalue my experience one but.

I get what you're trying to say but, like it or not, we are each a representative of Marquette University and Marquette is also a representative of us. If the institution at which we chose to get the most important education of our lifetimes shows itself to make poor decisions, whether that's in terms of funding, personnel decisions, programs offered, athletics, etc it makes the university look bad and that reflects poorly on the alumni and their education.

For example, the Louisville scandal gives off the impression that the school cares more about making money by running a successful basketball program than about being an educational institution that values its students' and prospective students' values and safety. That, in turn, reflects poorly on the students and alums.

[Dawson Rental]

There is a very true story about Marquette beating Loyola on New Year's Eve in Chicago--at the Chicago Stadium in 1975 or 1976. It was a double header and we were the klate game. After the game, Al tells two managers to go buy a couple of cases of beer. The two managers searched from bar to bar in what was a pretty bad neighborhood at the time. They find a place, buy the beer--crapping in their pants the whole time. As they walk out of the bar, the team bus pulls up, to their delight. The whole team and coaching staff polished 'em off on the way back to Milwaukee.

Sorry, but the timing can't be true.  Marquette never played Loyola on New Year's Eve in Chicago during Al's tenure.  They didn't play Loyola at all during calendar year 1975 and the 1976 game was in Chicago, but on January 31st.  From 1969 through 1974 MU played Loyola in Chicago but all those games were in late January, as well.  Funny thing about time and memories.

[MerrittsMustache]

Sorry, but the timing can't be true.  Marquette never played Loyola on New Year's Eve in Chicago during Al's tenure.  They didn't play Loyola at all during calendar year 1975 and the 1976 game was in Chicago, but on January 31st.  Funny thing about time and memories.

New Year's Eve, New Month's Eve...same difference.

[GGGG]

Sorry, but the timing can't be true.  Marquette never played Loyola on New Year's Eve in Chicago during Al's tenure.  They didn't play Loyola at all during calendar year 1975 and the 1976 game was in Chicago, but on January 31st.  From 1969 through 1974 MU played Loyola in Chicago but all those games were in late January, as well.  Funny thing about time and memories.

And the 1/31/76 game was not at the Chicago Stadium, but the International Amphitheatre.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1976/01/31/page/209/article/walton-gang-hits-town-tonight

[naginiF]

And the 1/31/76 game was not at the Chicago Stadium, but the International Amphitheatre.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1976/01/31/page/209/article/walton-gang-hits-town-tonight

Filed under: "Wow! I'm old"
Two pages below the article:  a) IBM is being investigated for having a monopoly on typewriters and b) the prime rate is cut to 6.25%

[4everwarriors]

The National Semi-Final exposed Coach Crean for da bsin' fraud he is, hey?

[Gato78]

I need to defend myself and take some shots. First, same story from the two managers at different times. I think, based on the description, this would be the right game. Second, for God's sake, the nitpickers failed to understand the purpose of the story--Al could get away with this stuff and it was not even questioned and entirely normal. Now, it raises the hackles of the resident puritans. Again, lighten up.

And the 1/31/76 game was not at the Chicago Stadium, but the International Amphitheatre.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1976/01/31/page/209/article/walton-gang-hits-town-tonight

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I need to defend myself and take some shots. First, same story from the two managers at different times. I think, based on the description, this would be the right game. Second, for God's sake, the nitpickers failed to understand the purpose of the story--Al could get away with this stuff and it was not even questioned and entirely normal. Now, it raises the hackles of the resident puritans. Again, lighten up.

Again drinking age was lower then. Problem is Howland was caught breaking the law with his players. You can't do that as a head coach

[wadesworld]

Again drinking age was lower then. Problem is Howland was caught breaking the law with his players. You can't do that as a head coach

Unless Howland supplied the alcohol, he didn't break any laws.  He certainly wasn't under 21 years old.

[Tugg Speedman]

The National Semi-Final exposed Coach Crean for da bsin' fraud he is, hey?

I thought exiting in the round of 16 with two lottery picks did that too.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Unless Howland supplied the alcohol, he didn't break any laws.  He certainly wasn't under 21 years old.

1. Incorrect. If you allow underage drinking to occur on a property you own, lease, or otherwise control you can be cited for violating a social host ordinance. I have no idea where Ben Howland drank with his recruits so I don't know if this happened or not.

2. Allow me to rephrase, Ben Howland was caught encouraging his players to break the law and may have been breaking the law himself.

And this all a happened after he fired an undergraduate student manager for drinking with the players. What a hypocrite.

[keefe]

I thought exiting in the round of 16 with two lottery picks did that too.