Another Big East Expansion Discussion

[GoldenWarrior11]

Dayton, in most years with Archie Miller, would finish in the top-6.  Without Archie Miller, it could be a toss-up, as they have had some pretty bad years under Jim O'Brien, Oliver Purnell and Brian Gregory.  If you are adding a school, you don't want to add to the middle of the conference (which is what Dayton/SLU would do) - you want to add programs that would add to the top of the conference. 

As previously stated, there just aren't any programs out there that fit at the moment.  It is what it is, but the Big East won't suffer because of it.

[Benny B]

As previously stated, there just aren't any programs out there that fit at the moment.  It is what it is, but the Big East won't suffer because of it.

This is how I feel.  Some simply don't have the requisite commitment to basketball (Fordham); some are too far away (Gonzaga), some do nothing to expand the "footprint" of the Big East (St. Joe's, Loyola IL); some don't fit the private-school theme/philosophy (VCU/WSU), and some are just too petulant to tolerate (Dayton).

Incidentally, you can't do anything about your geography, public/private status, or petulance (although, I guess we've been surprised before on that last one), but you can control the resources you commit to basketball.  Fordham may not be one, but I'd be willing to bet that BE officials/presidents have talked to their counterparts from a select group of schools and outlined specific goals/milestones to meet over the next several years as a sort of "roadmap" towards consideration.  If such conversations have taken place, the likes of Dayton, SLU, Davidson, Richmond, etc. likely know the specifics of what they have to accomplish... and if so, I'd keep an eye out for a gamechanger or two amongst this crowd over the next 2-3 years.

[source?]

I think that discounting schools solely because they are public is short-sighted. That said, any public school should come under extra scrutiny. Wichita State, for example, has a smaller enrollment than St. John's, DePaul, and Georgetown, is the 3rd most popular school in their own state (generously), doesn't have a fan base that travels well (MSG problem), and their location is sub-optimal. They also have fans equally annoying to Dayton. That doesn't even get into the issue of academics.

[MerrittsMustache]

SLU? Richmond? St. Joe's? Dayton? Keep 'em! Why make the conference worse?The Big East has already been knocked down a peg by losing Syracuse, Louisville, etc.

I just can't imagine the AAC being around in its current state for all that long. Sooner or later, the top AAC basketball schools will come to terms with the fact that they're major powers in a mid-major conference and the football teams will come to terms with the fact that they're being left out in the cold when the big money bowls make their picks. That conference just doesn't have long-term staying power. If the Big East wants to expand, they should wait out Cincinnati, UConn and possibly Memphis and Temple. There are likely going to be significantly more football independents within the next 5-10 years. Why force the issue by picking up mid-majors and hoping the conference affiliation will help them improve?

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

SLU? Richmond? St. Joe's? Dayton? Keep 'em! Why make the conference worse?The Big East has already been knocked down a peg by losing Syracuse, Louisville, etc.

I just can't imagine the AAC being around in its current state for all that long. Sooner or later, the top AAC basketball schools will come to terms with the fact that they're major powers in a mid-major conference and the football teams will come to terms with the fact that they're being left out in the cold when the big money bowls make their picks. That conference just doesn't have long-term staying power. If the Big East wants to expand, they should wait out Cincinnati, UConn and possibly Memphis and Temple. There are likely going to be significantly more football independents within the next 5-10 years. Why force the issue by picking up mid-majors and hoping the conference affiliation will help them improve?

Agreed.  10 works for the time being.  Only way I expand (outside of Gonzaga), is with Cinci and UConn (would be fine with Memphis and Temple too, I guess), and them either leaving football behind, or signing massive buyouts to leave the BE if a better situation comes along.

[KipsBayEagle]

I will say this, if Fordham and Holy Cross were to join we would have quite the academic conference.  I really do think that counts for something.  I also understand why people would think this is a horrible idea.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I will say this, if Fordham and Holy Cross were to join we would have quite the academic conference.  I really do think that counts for something.  I also understand why people would think this is a horrible idea.

You have to meet a bare minimum academic requirement. Beyond that is just gravy. No one really cares about academics in college athletics.

[Galway Eagle]

You have to meet a bare minimum academic requirement. Beyond that is just gravy. No one really cares about academics in college athletics.

Tell that to the Ivy League

[MU82]

Add Fordham and make the Big East an elite academic conference.  Dayton, SLU add nothing to our conference whatsoever other than 3 or 4 crappy games onto our schedule.  Fordham may be horrible at basketball, but Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette and Fordham makes a pretty solid academic core.

Adding Dayton and SLU is the quickest way to destroy this conference.  Don't add schools just for the sake of adding schools.

I choose None Of The Above.

[GGGG]

Tell that to the Ivy League

TAMU was clearly exaggerating.  There are conferences that do care.  However they aren't very competitive on the athletic field in most cases and don't earn a great deal of revenue from their athletic endeavors.

Since the BE obviously wants to be competitive and increase revenue, they are going to look at schools that are competitive athletically that also fit its model.  While Fordham and Holy Cross are models for the types of school the BE has, they simply aren't competitive enough.

[brewcity77]

If we can't afford to add anyone who doesn't bring value to the basketball brand, the only school that meets that qualification is Gonzaga.  SLU, Dayton, etc. do not.

We are what we are.  We are never going to be a super conference, but we will always be relevant.  Adding middling schools with mediocre basketball programs is the quickest way to sink this conference.  If you want to expand to include academically elite members I am all for it.  But adding more crappy basketball schools is harmful.  Expansion for expansion's sake is not a good blueprint for the big east.

I don't think SLU is worth discussing. Without Majerus, they're back to being a nothing. Unfortunate, but true.

Dayton would be a fine addition if there was some other must have school and we wanted to go to 12. Gonzaga thinks it's feasible? Okay, take them and Dayton. UConn drops football? Okay, take them and Dayton. Notre Dame decides the ACC is lame? You get the idea.

I don't think anyone is suggesting adding Dayton for Dayton's sake, but if we need a school to balance numbers, they make the most sense.

[Spotcheck Billy]

another 8 page expansion thread that goes nowhere

this is becoming like 'another new oil threads' on Harley/car forums

[Benny B]

TAMU was clearly exaggerating.  There are conferences that do care.  However they aren't very competitive on the athletic field in most cases and don't earn a great deal of revenue from their athletic endeavors.

Since the BE obviously wants to be competitive and increase revenue, they are going to look at schools that are competitive athletically that also fit its model.  While Fordham and Holy Cross are models for the types of school the BE has, they simply aren't competitive enough.

I seem to remember Holy Cross making the tournament about 12 years ago as a 14-seed and playing a pretty tight game against the #3.  Granted, that was over a decade ago, and they haven't done much since.

[4everwarriors]

Yeah but, ya gotta consider the #3 team's coach. That 'splain lots, ai na?

[MU82]

I seem to remember Holy Cross making the tournament about 12 years ago as a 14-seed and playing a pretty tight game against the #3.  Granted, that was over a decade ago, and they haven't done much since.

I was never more nervous in person at a Marquette game.

Travis Diener was The Man and D-Wade was a bit player.

[4everwarriors]

Bit playas don't put up triple doubles vs Kentucky, ai na?

[Benny B]

Bit playas don't put up triple doubles vs Kentucky, ai na?

You can't be a superstar two weekends in a row, apparently.

[GooooMarquette]

I will say this, if Fordham and Holy Cross were to join we would have quite the academic conference.  I really do think that counts for something.  I also understand why people would think this is a horrible idea.

If we're going for academics above all else, why not raid the upper echelons of the Patriot league, and go for schools like Colgate or Boston U?  Better academically than Fordham, and probably no worse in hoops.

[Galway Eagle]

If we're going for academics above all else, why not raid the upper echelons of the Patriot league, and go for schools like Colgate or Boston U?  Better academically than Fordham, and probably no worse in hoops.

Heck lets just grab some D3 teams like UofC, NYU or MIT

[GGGG]

I think it is hilarious that Marquette (USN&WR National University #86) fans are acting as if SLU (#96) and Dayton (#108) aren't good enough schools academically. 

[Galway Eagle]

I think it is hilarious that Marquette (USN&WR National University #86) fans are acting as if SLU (#96) and Dayton (#108) aren't good enough schools academically.

Once you're out of the top 90 you might as well not even be ranked

[Eldon]

I think it is hilarious that Marquette (USN&WR National University #86) fans are acting as if SLU (#96) and Dayton (#108) aren't good enough schools academically.

I also got a chuckle out of that.

Once you're out of the top 90 86 you might as well not even be ranked

FTFY

[KipsBayEagle]

I think it is hilarious that Marquette (USN&WR National University #86) fans are acting as if SLU (#96) and Dayton (#108) aren't good enough schools academically.

Who said anyone was going by US News Rankings?  Holy Cross and Fordham have sterling reputations academically, rankings or no rankings.  And the whole thrust of my argument is that if you associate yourself with academically superior institutions, your academic reputation will become superior as well.  That's why I would rather associate with schools that are better than ours rather than schools that are the same or slightly worse.

No one is saying that Dayton and SLU aren't good schools, but they certainly aren't elite academic schools or elite basketball schools.  At least with Fordham and Holy Cross you would get elite academic catholic institutions. 

[GGGG]

Who said anyone was going by US News Rankings?  Holy Cross and Fordham have sterling reputations academically, rankings or no rankings.  And the whole thrust of my argument is that if you associate yourself with academically superior institutions, your academic reputation will become superior as well.  That's why I would rather associate with schools that are better than ours rather than schools that are the same or slightly worse.

No one is saying that Dayton and SLU aren't good schools, but they certainly aren't elite academic schools or elite basketball schools.  At least with Fordham and Holy Cross you would get elite academic catholic institutions. 

I was going by USN&WR because it is simply a ranking standard.  One that I have troubles with, but by and large is accepted by the public as semi-authentic. 

I think your statements in this thread ask a question that some of us are taking for granted.  What is the purpose of the Big East Conference?  Most here view it entirely as athletics oriented.  Membership should be the best schools possible no matter the type of school (VCU, Wichita) or if they have football (UConn, UC).

You seem to want it to be more than simply athletics.  That it should be a grouping of schools that participate in athletics, but also have strong academic reputations.  And that this should be important to Marquette.  So the conference can afford to make athletic sacrifices for the sake of academic reputation.  The Ivy League and the Patriot League are examples.

I think the BE is going down a middle road.  It is primarily an athletic conference, but with a membership of similar schools (private, non-football).  So my *guess* is that schools like SLU and Dayton are much more likely to be our next members than VCU, Wichita, Fordham or Holy Cross.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The biggest (of several) problems about adding schools for their academics is that it would end up costing members schools millions in television revenue. The contract with Fox does gives us the ability to add two (or more) schools in exchange for more money from Fox. Fox would presumably give enough money to make it so every member is still getting their ~4 million a year. Fox won't do that for any two (or more teams). They will only add that money if they deem the two additional teams as lucrative enough to justify their investment. Fordham and Holy Cross don't come anywhere close to that bill. So instead of getting more money to split between 12 members, the Big East would have to split the same money between 12 members, reducing each members payday. Perceived academic prestige is not worth that. Academic prestige is near the bottom on the list of criteria that high major conferences look for. You have to not suck at academics and you will get accepted if you are good at athletics.

Any potential expansion school for the Big East has to go through Fox first. Before you start looking at academics, endowments, institution type (e.g. things Fox doesn't give two craps about), you have to see if they are a quality enough program for Fox to invest in them. If they are, then you start arguing public v. private, football v. non-football, etc. If they aren't, the rest of the stuff doesn't matter because they aren't going to be added to the Big East.