2015-16 NFC North/NFL thread

[GGGG]

How many current NFL quarterbacks have had better numbers in their career than Matt Ryan?  I'd venture to guess it's less than 10.

Matt Ryan is a system quarterback who can make throws but not really make plays.  He's pretty much an average quarterback.  Here is a list of current NFL quarterbacks I would rather have for a season:

Rodgers, Brady, Romo, Wilson, Rivers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Newton, Luck, Dalton, Flacco and Eli Manning.  (I'm not including Peyton because I think he's actually dead.)

Ryan would be grouped with Stafford, Cutler and Alex Smith.

[GooooMarquette]

How many current NFL quarterbacks have had better numbers in their career than Matt Ryan?  I'd venture to guess it's less than 10.

Depends on the stats you choose.  Yeah, I'm sure there are some that make him look decent, but there are also plenty that make him look mediocre.  Kinda like Avellini and Hunter.

[wadesworld]

Matt Ryan is a system quarterback who can make throws but not really make plays.  He's pretty much an average quarterback.  Here is a list of current NFL quarterbacks I would rather have for a season:

Rodgers, Brady, Romo, Wilson, Rivers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Newton, Luck, Dalton, Flacco and Eli Manning.  (I'm not including Peyton because I think he's actually dead.)

Ryan would be grouped with Stafford, Cutler and Alex Smith.

Ryan's career numbers are actually pretty dang impressive.  Your list of players for this season looks fairly accurate, although I'm not sure I'd take Eli, Flacco, or Brees this year, but in terms of players who have proven they can perform year in and year out he's a 2nd tier quarterback.  1st would be Brady, Rodgers, Peyton (but like you said, he's done), and Rothlisberger.  2nd tier I would say would be Romo, Ryan, Wilson, Brees, Flacco, and Eli.  3rd tier I would say would be Cam, Palmer, Luck, Dalton, Cutler...guys who either haven't done it consistently yet but are showing they have the potential to be stars, have been injured too often, or have been too inconsistent and haven't won anything major yet.

[GGGG]

I am not disputing that Ryan has good stats.  I just don't know what that means.  He throws a ton of short passes and does so accurately.  He is 9th in attempts among active quarterbacks, 10th in completions, but 24th in yards per completion.  I think he's one of those quarterbacks that is "efficient," but one who I struggle thinking "that guy is going to win us something."

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

It also helps that Ryan had Roddy White when he was damn good and Julio Jones. Yes Cutler had Marshall and Alshon, but I wouldn't put those two on the same level as Roddy and Julio in their prime.

[MerrittsMustache]

I am not disputing that Ryan has good stats.  I just don't know what that means.  He throws a ton of short passes and does so accurately.  He is 9th in attempts among active quarterbacks, 10th in completions, but 24th in yards per completion.  I think he's one of those quarterbacks that is "efficient," but one who I struggle thinking "that guy is going to win us something."

Ryan is primarily the type of QB who's not going to lose a game for you...but he's typically not going to put the team on his back and win one for you either.

Cutler has the ability to put the team on his back and win one for you (as we've seen a couple times this season) but he also has the "ability" to lose a game for you (as we've also seen).

[DegenerateDish]

To be quite clear, I never started a Cutler/Ryan comparison...all I ever said was Ryan deserved to get hammered for this season, and quite possibly he's only ever been a slightly better than average quarterback, and is only being recognized for it now.

I don't think it matters who's better between Cutler/Ryan, I just think Ryan has gotten a free pass for not a great body of work.

[GooooMarquette]

To be quite clear, I never started a Cutler/Ryan comparison...all I ever said was Ryan deserved to get hammered for this season, and quite possibly he's only ever been a slightly better than average quarterback, and is only being recognized for it now.

I don't think it matters who's better between Cutler/Ryan, I just think Ryan has gotten a free pass for not a great body of work.

Valid point.  IMHO Cutler takes more crap than Ryan because of his aloof demeanor.  And it isn't just me - Google "Matt Ryan attitude" and "Jay Cutler attitude" - you'll be reading some very different stuff.  Maybe the rep is warranted, maybe it isn't, but it's certainly how he comes off. 

Bad attitude may be ignored if you're a superstar, but at the mid-level, more people notice.

[wadesworld]

Ryan is probably going to go over 4,000 yards for the 5th straight season.  He had back to back seasons where he went for 4,177 yards, 29 TD, and 12 INT and 4,719 yards, 32 TD, and 14 INT.  Those aren't numbers of a quarterback whose peak is to not lose you football games.  Those are the numbers of a low end top tier quarterback for a short window of time (think Russell Wilson or Carson Palmer right now or Cam Newton right now or Eli...guys who flash greatness but aren't there consistently), especially when the following season he threw for over 4,500 yards and 26 TD again.  He's certainly not a top tier QB every season and he's made his fair share of horrible decisions in big situations (Tramon Williams pick 6 to end the first half in the 2010 Playoffs while trying to gain some yardage for his field goal kicker comes to mind), but just because he's having one bad season doesn't make him a mediocre QB.  I would not at all be surprised to see him bounce back next year and go for 4,500 yards and 25-30 TDs with 12-15 picks.

[🏀]

It also helps that Ryan had Roddy White when he was damn good and Julio Jones. Yes Cutler had Marshall and Alshon, but I wouldn't put those two on the same level as Roddy and Julio in their prime.

Matt Ryan also didn't have to play under Trestman for two years and Martz with the worst offensive line in the NFL.

I'm no Jay fan, but his situation hasn't been as gravy.

[MU82]

Ryan's career numbers are actually pretty dang impressive.  Your list of players for this season looks fairly accurate, although I'm not sure I'd take Eli, Flacco, or Brees this year, but in terms of players who have proven they can perform year in and year out he's a 2nd tier quarterback.  1st would be Brady, Rodgers, Peyton (but like you said, he's done), and Rothlisberger.  2nd tier I would say would be Romo, Ryan, Wilson, Brees, Flacco, and Eli.  3rd tier I would say would be Cam, Palmer, Luck, Dalton, Cutler...guys who either haven't done it consistently yet but are showing they have the potential to be stars, have been injured too often, or have been too inconsistent and haven't won anything major yet.

Interesting.

I'd take Newton over Romo, Ryan, Brees (now) and Flacco, both to win one game and to build around for several seasons.

[DegenerateDish]

Since the 2013 NFC title game, Ryan has gone 16-27 as a starter. Something else that needs to be noted, he plays at a minimum 9 games a year in a dome, two other games in warm weather climates. I found it interesting that one of his main NFL comps is Trent Green.

The pick six he threw against the Colts and the end zone int he threw yesterday were arguably two of the worst throws of the year. Career wise, he's not horrible by any means, he hasn't been bad, I just think his career arc, which should still be slightly rising, has regressed. His home/road splits aren't good, which is surprising.

They'll bring him back next year, no replacement on the roster, he's got $18 mil in dead money next year. They'll have an interesting decision next offseason though.

[GGGG]

Ryan is probably going to go over 4,000 yards for the 5th straight season.  He had back to back seasons where he went for 4,177 yards, 29 TD, and 12 INT and 4,719 yards, 32 TD, and 14 INT.  Those aren't numbers of a quarterback whose peak is to not lose you football games.  Those are the numbers of a low end top tier quarterback for a short window of time (think Russell Wilson or Carson Palmer right now or Cam Newton right now or Eli...guys who flash greatness but aren't there consistently), especially when the following season he threw for over 4,500 yards and 26 TD again.  He's certainly not a top tier QB every season and he's made his fair share of horrible decisions in big situations (Tramon Williams pick 6 to end the first half in the 2010 Playoffs while trying to gain some yardage for his field goal kicker comes to mind), but just because he's having one bad season doesn't make him a mediocre QB.  I would not at all be surprised to see him bounce back next year and go for 4,500 yards and 25-30 TDs with 12-15 picks.

Those numbers tell me that he would make a nice fantasy draft pick.

[MU B2002]

Ryan is probably going to go over 4,000 yards for the 5th straight season.  He had back to back seasons where he went for 4,177 yards, 29 TD, and 12 INT and 4,719 yards, 32 TD, and 14 INT.  Those aren't numbers of a quarterback whose peak is to not lose you football games.  Those are the numbers of a low end top tier quarterback for a short window of time (think Russell Wilson or Carson Palmer right now or Cam Newton right now or Eli...guys who flash greatness but aren't there consistently), especially when the following season he threw for over 4,500 yards and 26 TD again. 

Russell Wilson has a ring, Eli has 2 rings.  That's exactly the kind of inconsistent play I want from my QB.  Where do I sign up?

[wadesworld]

Russell Wilson has a ring, Eli has 2 rings.  That's exactly the kind of inconsistent play I want from my QB.  Where do I sign up?

Yup.  Russell Wilson won a ring by handing the ball to one of the best backs in the league and letting one of the best defenses in the history of football carry him to a ring.  What happened when he decided to throw the ball in the Playoffs?  Uh oh.  Put Russell Wilson on the Falcons, Bears, Cowboys, or others and those teams are all worse than they are with Ryan, Cutler, Romo, etc.  Russell Wilson is very good...because he realizes he's not very good.  He's smart enough to let his coaches hide his deficiencies as a passer and allows them to run an offense that makes him effective through a bunch of misdirection, getting out in space, etc.

Eli Manning follows up a Super Bowl winning season with a season in which he completed 57.5% of his passes, had 18 TD, and 27 INT.  Consistency at its finest.  When you combine rushing and passing touchdowns and fumbles lost and interceptions, Eli has 287 touchdowns and 273 turnovers in his career while completing 59.3% of his passes.

Matt Hasselback, Rex Grossman, Jake Delhomme, Chris Chandler, Kerry Collins, Niel O'Donnell, and Stan Humphries all "led their teams" to Super Bowl appearances.  Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, and Jeff Hostetler all have rings as starting quarterbacks.

[MU82]

Yup.  Russell Wilson won a ring by handing the ball to one of the best backs in the league and letting one of the best defenses in the history of football carry him to a ring.  What happened when he decided to throw the ball in the Playoffs?  Uh oh.  Put Russell Wilson on the Falcons, Bears, Cowboys, or others and those teams are all worse than they are with Ryan, Cutler, Romo, etc.  Russell Wilson is very good...because he realizes he's not very good.  He's smart enough to let his coaches hide his deficiencies as a passer and allows them to run an offense that makes him effective through a bunch of misdirection, getting out in space, etc.

Eli Manning follows up a Super Bowl winning season with a season in which he completed 57.5% of his passes, had 18 TD, and 27 INT.  Consistency at its finest.  When you combine rushing and passing touchdowns and fumbles lost and interceptions, Eli has 287 touchdowns and 273 turnovers in his career while completing 59.3% of his passes.

Matt Hasselback, Rex Grossman, Jake Delhomme, Chris Chandler, Kerry Collins, Niel O'Donnell, and Stan Humphries all "led their teams" to a Super Bowl appearances.  Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, and Jeff Hostetler all have rings as starting quarterbacks.

Well, Eli does have 2 rings. And he repeatedly came up huge in the both postseason runs. That's more than a fluke. He's no Peyton Manning for sure, but he's proved WAY more than a bunch of QBs on these lists.

[wadesworld]

Well, Eli does have 2 rings. And he repeatedly came up huge in the both postseason runs. That's more than a fluke. He's no Peyton Manning for sure, but he's proved WAY more than a bunch of QBs on these lists.

Therein lies the problem.  Eli is no Peyton, yet Eli has 2 rings and Peyton has 1.  So Is it really that Peyton is no Eli, then?

I am of the opinion that Peyton Manning may very well be the best quarterback ever to play have played football, at least that I have been alive to see, yet he only has 1 ring.  The Packers have had arguably the best nearly 25 years of quarterbacking for one franchise consecutively...and have 2 Super Bowls to show for it.

There are 22 positions between offense and defense, plus special teams players.  53 roster spots.  It takes a lot of talent around a quarterback, it takes a lot of luck, it takes a lot of health, it takes really good coaching, etc. to win a Super Bowl.  Some really average quarterbacks have been on some teams that carried them to Super Bowls.  Some very good quarterbacks have come up just short of Super Bowls.

Of course the ultimate goal is to win a championship in any sport at any level.  But is Trent Dilfer really better than Dan Marino?  Are Karl Malone and John Stockton really not some of the greatest basketball players ever because they didn't get a ring?  Did LeBron really need to hop on Wade's back  in order to cement himself as a greatest of all time?  To me, the answers are all a resounding no.

[MerrittsMustache]

Interesting write-up on Cutler.

http://www.windycitygridiron.com/2015/12/1/9817110/why-everyone-is-right-about-jay-cutler

[MU82]

Therein lies the problem.  Eli is no Peyton, yet Eli has 2 rings and Peyton has 1.  So Is it really that Peyton is no Eli, then?

I am of the opinion that Peyton Manning may very well be the best quarterback ever to play have played football, at least that I have been alive to see, yet he only has 1 ring.  The Packers have had arguably the best nearly 25 years of quarterbacking for one franchise consecutively...and have 2 Super Bowls to show for it.

There are 22 positions between offense and defense, plus special teams players.  53 roster spots.  It takes a lot of talent around a quarterback, it takes a lot of luck, it takes a lot of health, it takes really good coaching, etc. to win a Super Bowl.  Some really average quarterbacks have been on some teams that carried them to Super Bowls.  Some very good quarterbacks have come up just short of Super Bowls.

Of course the ultimate goal is to win a championship in any sport at any level.  But is Trent Dilfer really better than Dan Marino?  Are Karl Malone and John Stockton really not some of the greatest basketball players ever because they didn't get a ring?  Did LeBron really need to hop on Wade's back  in order to cement himself as a greatest of all time?  To me, the answers are all a resounding no.

Nobody here -- and certainly not me -- said Dilfer was better than Marino or that Malone/Stockton were not all-timers. So this whole thing is a strawman argument.

All I said was that Eli does deserve credit for winning 2 rings and playing superbly in the postseason of both championship runs -- all as part of a pretty nice (if not superstar-level) career. Dilfer, Rypien, et al have 1 ring each. It's a lot harder to win 2.

Here are the starting QBs to win at least 2 Super Bowls: Starr, Staubach, Griese, Bradshaw, Plunkett, Montana, Aikman, Elway, Brady, Roethlisberger, E. Manning.

That's pretty exclusive company. And even if Manning is the "worst" on that list (actually, I'd argue Plunkett is), it's still pretty impressive.

Oh, and I came right out and said that Eli is no Peyton.

So what are you arguing with me about?

[wadesworld]

Nobody here -- and certainly not me -- said Dilfer was better than Marino or that Malone/Stockton were not all-timers. So this whole thing is a strawman argument.

All I said was that Eli does deserve credit for winning 2 rings and playing superbly in the postseason of both championship runs -- all as part of a pretty nice (if not superstar-level) career. Dilfer, Rypien, et al have 1 ring each. It's a lot harder to win 2.

Here are the starting QBs to win at least 2 Super Bowls: Starr, Staubach, Griese, Bradshaw, Plunkett, Montana, Aikman, Elway, Brady, Roethlisberger, E. Manning.

That's pretty exclusive company. And even if Manning is the "worst" on that list (actually, I'd argue Plunkett is), it's still pretty impressive.

Oh, and I came right out and said that Eli is no Peyton.

So what are you arguing with me about?

I'm saying rings are what everyone obviously want to win. But I'm also saying rings don't determine whether 1 player is better than another player or if a player is a great player or not. Eli has come up big in some big moments, no doubt. But I don't think him winning 2 rings proves he's a great quarterback. He's an average quarterback who played some good football at the right times and whose teams got hot at the right times. He certainly deserves a lot of credit. But if I'm taking a quarterback in the NFL for the next 3 years Eli's not one of my first 10 selections.

[MU82]

I'm saying rings are what everyone obviously want to win. But I'm also saying rings don't determine whether 1 player is better than another player or if a player is a great player or not. Eli has come up big in some big moments, no doubt. But I don't think him winning 2 rings proves he's a great quarterback. He's an average quarterback who played some good football at the right times and whose teams got hot at the right times. He certainly deserves a lot of credit. But if I'm taking a quarterback in the NFL for the next 3 years Eli's not one of my first 10 selections.

OK, given all that, I don't think we disagree all that much about Eli.

I'd probably argue he's a good QB (not just average) because one of the main measuring sticks of "goodness" in a QB is performance in the biggest games.

But he isn't consistent enough to be a great QB. And without ranking them 1-10 right this second, my inclination would be to agree that Eli wouldn't be in my 10 either, though it would be close.

[GGGG]

I'm saying rings are what everyone obviously want to win. But I'm also saying rings don't determine whether 1 player is better than another player or if a player is a great player or not. Eli has come up big in some big moments, no doubt. But I don't think him winning 2 rings proves he's a great quarterback. He's an average quarterback who played some good football at the right times and whose teams got hot at the right times. He certainly deserves a lot of credit. But if I'm taking a quarterback in the NFL for the next 3 years Eli's not one of my first 10 selections.

I would rather have a statistically average quarterback who "comes up big in big moments" (Eli), than a statistically stellar one who sh*ts the bed come playoff time.  (Ryan)

[MU82]

I would rather have a statistically average quarterback who "comes up big in big moments" (Eli), than a statistically stellar one who sh*ts the bed come playoff time.  (Ryan)

Exactly.

[DegenerateDish]

They don't look like they've quit, but this Packers team tonight looks like they have little interest in playing this game.

[GGGG]

Oh I think they've quit. This is pretty much rock bottom here. I have no clue how you even begin to diagnose this crap.