Optimistic About Wojo

[Golden Avalanche]

Mayo, Duane, Burton, Dawson all had decent shots. JJJ is a slasher. Plenty of guard talent in my view didn't need any more.

Clown speak, bro.

[Texas Western]

All Wojo will do is put his hand through a wall to exemplify what he wants everyone to be united in accomplishing. If a player can't show even a smidgeon of that kind of dedication, then let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

The players are all very dedicated to basketball. It is the most important thing in their life. Successful coaches understand the individual qualities in their players and draw them out.

[swoopem]

OK, I can conceptually agree with you here.  I guess we will have to wait to see if that is the case with Wojo, but frankly that may be the reason why Coach K's assistants haven't been wildly successful elsewhere.  Diversity in background is important, and his disciples usually have not had that.  Crean and O'Neill were both at multiple institutions as assistants before getting to MU.

If this is true (Duke guys aren't diverse enough) then a lot of blame has to go on the assistant coaches. They all have different backgrounds and should speak up more rather than do exactly what Wojo is telling him. And I highly doubt Wojo is running the team like a dictatorship. I believe the communication is open and he's more than willing to listen to others. Example A, switching to zone.

A lot of people second guessing or calling out Wojo are going to look stupid the next couple years. We're going to be just fine.

[79Warrior]

One important factor that needs to be taken into the equation, is that Dukiet took over our program at a time that it was still in the after glow of being a blue blood. So those years were a huge trainwreck and it took us many years for the program to fully recover. Our program is strong enough now to absorb last years lousy performance. However, I am concerned that Wojo keeps on the Dukiet path and that we are sunk again for years.

Well you better get your Prozac ready because Wojo is here to stay. Was at an event last evening with Dr. Lovell and he is 100% firmly behind Wojo. The adminstration absolutely loves him and all he is about.

[tower912]

Slurpers.

[MUfan12]

OK, I can conceptually agree with you here.  I guess we will have to wait to see if that is the case with Wojo, but frankly that may be the reason why Coach K's assistants haven't been wildly successful elsewhere.

I'd give this more credence if Wojo didn't ditch the man defense, and vary the offense to fit his personnel.

[Spotcheck Billy]

I would agree with this Lenny. My only point was to remind people that this year was reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Dukiet had some good players, he was a bad coach. I sent many letters to Cords asking for a change in direction back then. But for people to say that our competition is SOOO much better is not necessarily so. We played lots of good programs back then, just like now. And we played cupcakes back then just like we do now. Now somebody defines cupcake as a team that does not make the dance. IMO, That is dumb. Can't remember, but back then maybe only half the number made the dance.

Ok I was loose with my cupcake term but many of those teams that we consider good now weren't then. WI was awful back then  (just 12-16 that season) - and the tourney was 64 teams at that time

[willie warrior]

http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1987

87-88 Synopsis.   

Wow--7 Freshmen that year. No wonder the team had problems. A couple of those turned out to be pretty good.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.

And this is the true source of your disdain for Wojo. You, for whatever reason, are a fan of John Dawson's. He brought in Carlino, who was the best available player who would be immediately eligible and played at a position that was obviously are biggest weakness last season. It was a no brainer recruiting decision. But it resulted in your favorite player being regulated the back of the bench.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Mayo, Duane, Burton, Dawson all had decent shots. JJJ is a slasher. Plenty of guard talent in my view didn't need any more.

Mayo, Duane, and Dawson all are around 30% 3P shooters. Carlino is 42%. Burton made 4 threes the season before. I can understand why Wojo wanted a shooter.

[Lighthouse 84]

Do you *know* this to be the case?  Or are you merely speculating?  If it is the latter, on what basis are you making that speculation?

I agree.  TW, you've been asked repeatedly by many on this board to tell us why what you spew is not pure conjecture.  You ignore it every time.  If you don't know it as fact, don't state it as fact.  If you are connected with the program in some way (or were until a player left), you shouldn't be posting on this board.

[NersEllenson]

I chose the first 8 games because JJJ was at least a part-time starter for those 8 games. Seems like a logical place to draw the line considering my point was that JJJ was given the opportunity to start but didn't take advantage of it. Also, I removed the stats chunk of my post about 30 seconds after I posted it because I didn't really think it was relevant.

Go ahead. Say the same things over and over and keep telling yourself that you're not completely and utterly clueless.

Apologies to others on this board for getting sucked back into Ners' nonsense.

Not sure why you are getting upset over what I posted.  It was level-headed and relevant.  I would appreciate if you would go through my post (copied and pasted here), and just expalin to me where I'm completely and utterly clueless and full of nonsense?  I don't feel this is crazy as a rebuttal to your notion that Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG but "couldn't," due to JJJ essentially not playing well:

Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG.  Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to?  Why?  And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107.  We blew them out.  WAs never a game.  Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.

As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games.  So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes?  What explains this reduction?  Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes.  And what happens?  With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home.  That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).

Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin.  15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)

[willie warrior]

Well you better get your Prozac ready because Wojo is here to stay. Was at an event last evening with Dr. Lovell and he is 100% firmly behind Wojo. The adminstration absolutely loves him and all he is about.

Glad to hear that Dr. Lovell is 100% behind Wojo. He should be because he was hired less than 1 year ago. But then, what would you expect him to say: "Wojo is in trouble"? Don't think you would hear that from any administration this early.

We should have a  good idea about Wojo by the end of next season, when we see another recruiting class, and how the team improves next year.

[jesmu84]

They bought in initially, yet 3 left within 7 months of the hire.  Call it 2 players if you want to believe Mayo couldn't return/admin didn't allow him to return to the program.  

Agreed that is the situation. But the original statement from TW indicated that the administration hired a coach that the players weren't comfortable with back in the spring. If that was they case, players would have left. True, they may or may not any longer feel comfortable with Wojo, but at least at the time of the hire, they did feel comfortable with him. TW's statement was erroneous.

[NersEllenson]

Mayo, Duane, and Dawson all are around 30% 3P shooters. Carlino is 42%. Burton made 4 threes the season before. I can understand why Wojo wanted a shooter.

Carlino was 35% from 3 last season.  He's had a nice improvement this season.  Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at, it will affect the players at that position perception of the head coach.  They aren't dumb - they know a transfer like that is going to come in and practically get 30 minutes regardless.  That limits their minute opportunities.  Carlino wasn't "in the family" when Wojo took over and preached family and togetherness at the time of his hire.  

Having said all of this, I'm not against Wojo having brought Carlino in to the fold.  He's talented.  However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo?  That would be a bit naive.

[NersEllenson]

Glad to hear that Dr. Lovell is 100% behind Wojo. He should be because he was hired less than 1 year ago. But then, what would you expect him to say: "Wojo is in trouble"? Don't think you would hear that from any administration this early.

We should have a  good idea about Wojo by the end of next season, when we see another recruiting class, and how the team improves next year.

You'd think you wouldn't have to clarify the original post with this disclaimer - but good job Willie.  To think that because Lovell said at a function last night that he's 100% behind Wojo at this time,means jack, is silly.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.

You're right, he should have stuck with JJJ as the 3 point shooter

[Golden Avalanche]

Carlino was 35% from 3 last season.  He's had a nice improvement this season.  Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at, it will affect the players at that position perception of the head coach.  They aren't dumb - they know a transfer like that is going to come in and practically get 30 minutes regardless.  That limits their minute opportunities.  Carlino wasn't "in the family" when Wojo took over and preached family and togetherness at the time of his hire.  

Having said all of this, I'm not against Wojo having brought Carlino in to the fold.  He's talented.  However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo?  That would be a bit naive.

Guy, come on, this is just a lie. And other than pure stubbornness, I don't see any legitimacy to this claim you and Texas Western have repeatedly been making over the last six weeks.

PG wasn't a position Marquette was deep at in 13-14 and it wasn't a position Marquette was deep at going into 14-15. By the way, it's a position Marquette won't be deep at in 15-16 either as things stand now.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Excuses are only good for the person who makes them.  They don't do me any good.

It's incredible to me to read the length you go to, to paint such a bleak picture of what Wojo walked into.

I go to quite a short length. I state simple facts about our program. We missed the NIT last season. From that team we lost 72% of our offense. We replaced that 72% with a former top 100 redshirt freshman, a graduate transfer, and a top 100 true freshman. We had 9 players available to start the season. We had no one taller than Steve Taylor on our roster. We had one guy on our team with a career 3 pt% of 30% or more (5 3PM miniumum). We were picked to finish in the bottom three of the conference by every major poll. Does this sound like a winning formula to you?

I will acknowledge that we had 7 former top 100 players if you acknowledge all of the other barriers Wojo was faced with when he took over.

Duane, JJJ, Burton and Luke are all Top 60 recruits

Luke was #88. Small correction. He was also unavailable to start the season.

It's on Wojo to coach that development, as the talent is there.

This I agree with. Where I disagree is that development didn't happen. Every player on our roster is a significantly better player than they were last season with two exceptions: Dawson and Burton. Dawson was last on a depth chart with plenty of guards, so he didn't play. Burton was dealing with an off the court tragedy and was forced to play out of position at the 4 and was clearly struggling.

It's fine to say this roster could have been a winner. That's a fair argument. But at least acknowledge all the barriers that were present to keeping the team from being a winner.

You say you don't accept excuses. To me, the above are limitations, not excuses. Wojo acknowledges that are bad and that it is not acceptable. It would be an excuse if he hid behind the limitations. He doesn't.

It's funny that you say you don't accept excuses. Because you give your favorite players a lot of them.

Dawson needs 10 minutes to get in the groove of the game, that's why he doesn't play well. EXCUSE

Mayo can't play to his full potential because he's afraid he'll get pulled. EXCUSE

Burton's upset that Derrick has a longer leash than he does. EXCUSE

JjJ needs 25 minutes in a game or he won't be able to perform. EXCUSE

Personally, I don't think the players actually hide behind these excuses like you make them out to. But you are ready to make plenty of excuses for them.

[NersEllenson]

You're right, he should have stuck with JJJ as the 3 point shooter

Would be no more laughable than playing a 43% FT shooting PG more minutes than any other player on the team - that also has made exactly 1, 2point FG that wasn't a layup through 23 games.  And one guy is a sophomore. 

[MerrittsMustache]

Carlino was 35% from 3 last season.  He's had a nice improvement this season.  Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at, it will affect the players at that position perception of the head coach.  They aren't dumb - they know a transfer like that is going to come in and practically get 30 minutes regardless.  That limits their minute opportunities.  Carlino wasn't "in the family" when Wojo took over and preached family and togetherness at the time of his hire.  

Having said all of this, I'm not against Wojo having brought Carlino in to the fold.  He's talented.  However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo?  That would be a bit naive.

Yep, there's nothing players hate more than when a coach brings in a guy who can help them win  

If the coach brings in someone who plays your position and could potentially take your minutes, do you what's a good solution? Get better!

[NersEllenson]

Guy, come on, this is just a lie. And other than pure stubbornness, I don't see any legitimacy to this claim you and Texas Western have repeatedly been making over the last six weeks.

PG wasn't a position Marquette was deep at in 13-14 and it wasn't a position Marquette was deep at going into 14-15. By the way, it's a position Marquette won't be deep at in 15-16 either as things stand now.

I was saying it from the perspective of Carlino being another guard.  And, unfortunately Wojo decided to cast him as a 2 guard, and not our PG, even though that was clearly the position of HUGE weakness for us last season.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Carlino was 35% from 3 last season.  

35% and hit more three pointers than the other four combined. % is important but so is volume.

Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at,

However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo?  That would be a bit naive.

That's not what I was saying. I'm aware that it would affect the players. What I was arguing against was TW's (and now your) claim that we were deep at the position. One, PG was our weakest position in 13-14, even we were deep, the depth wasn't good. Two, its not just about positions, it's about roles. You need snipers to be successful. The cupboard was bare in that regard.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Wow--7 Freshmen that year. No wonder the team had problems. A couple of those turned out to be pretty good.

Yeah, having attended MU during that dark period I can say that close up the team was even more awful than their record.  The talent was almost all in the underclassmen, and the bigs were Rod Grosse -- possibly the worst basketball player I have ever seen at MU until Mbao-- and the soon to be ineligible Joe Nethen -- possible the least intelligent basketball player I have ever seen.  I played at the Rec Center with Nethen (alas, unlike Ners I didn't dunk, instead I blew out my ACL) and dumb doesn't begin to describe him.

Only Trevor Powell and Tony Smith kept that team from being something like 4-24.

[NersEllenson]

Yeah, having attended MU during that dark period I can say that close up the team was even more awful than their record.  The talent was almost all in the underclassmen, and the bigs were Rod Grosse -- possibly the worst basketball player I have ever seen at MU until Mbao-- and the soon to be ineligible Joe Nethen -- possible the least intelligent basketball player I have ever seen.  I played at the Rec Center with Nethen (alas, unlike Ners I didn't dunk, instead I blew out my ACL) and dumb doesn't begin to describe him.

Only Trevor Powell and Tony Smith kept that team from being something like 4-24.

So playing more talented underclassmen can help teams win more games, than riding the "trusty" vets?