Wojo Post Game (Comments on JJJ DNP)

[GGGG]

But you can't possibly understand what Deonte is going through.

How do you know that?  I have had close friends and family members who have lost loved ones, oftentimes under very sudden and tragic circumstances.  I have seen how they have reacted and how they fared.  I have seen places that used to bring them great joy, bring them nothing but sadness.  Others act very differently. 

[Texas Western]

I think this "widely known" fact was mostly people not understanding how their favorite player wasn't performing as well as others on the roster.

Probably a bad choice of words. Let me rephrase. Those people who knew and were around Burton would tell you that he made it clear he was uncomfortable  with his role under Wojos regime. This is a garden variety transfer, for a guy who is around as many college campuses as you I am surprised you don't see it that way.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How do you know that?  I have had close friends and family members who have lost loved ones, oftentimes under very sudden and tragic circumstances.  I have seen how they have reacted and how they fared.  I have seen places that used to bring them great joy, bring them nothing but sadness.  Others act very differently. 

I'm sorry, but I don't think watch friends go through something and experiencing it yourself is two completely different things.

[bilsu]

Skill development
I really thought Wojo would correct JJJ's three point shooting form and to me it seems like it is even worse than last year.

[Texas Western]

Skill development
I really thought Wojo would correct JJJ's three point shooting form and to me it seems like it is even worse than last year.

JJJ really needs to work on his shot over the summer with the coaches. It is holding the rest of his game hostage.

[MU82]

I will now post this for the third time. Look at the team's numbers. What coach, what player, what fan would look at these numbers and say that "wow, this is an ncaa tournament team"? The truth is, every player on our roster has improved greatly from their 2013-2014 selves. The only two who didn't improve were Dawson and Burton. Burton played out of position and was dealing with a terrible tragedy off the court. Dawson just simply wasn't good enough to get on the court.

PG: Derrick Wilson: 5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 tpg, .391 FG%, .071 3P%
SG: Matt Carlino: 13.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 2.0 tpg, .385 FG%, .339 3P%
SF: Deonte Burton: 6.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 tpg, .478 FG%, .500 3P%
PF: Juan Anderson: 3.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.0 tpg, .378 FG% .192 3P%
C: Luke Fischer: 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.5 tpg, .556 FG%, .000  3P% (not available to December 16)

Bench:
1: Jajuan Johnson: 4.3 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.5 tpg, .443 FG%, .290 3P%
2: Steve Taylor: 2.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.7 tpg, .324 FG%, .154 3P%
3: John Dawson: 2.0 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.7 tpg, .320 FG%, .269 3P%
4: Duane Wilson: No Data Available
5: Sandy Cohen: No Data Available

Team Stats:
40.4 points per game
19.7 rebounds per game
12.7 assist per game
437-1086 .402 FG% Matt Carlino by himself had almost as many attempts (426), as FGM by the entire team (437).
88-295 .298 3P% Matt Carlino had 60 of those 88 makes

This is what Wojo inherited. A team that last season averaged around 40 points per game on 40.2 shooting, and 29.8% three point shooting. A team that grabbed under 20 boards a game. A team whose average height at the beginning of the year was 6-3. A team that had one player who shot more than 30% from three on at least 5 makes. A team

If this isn't a rebuilding year, I don't know what is.

Oh you ... with your fancy facts and stats and stuff!

#firewojo

[Lennys Tap]

JJJ really needs to work on his shot over the summer with the coaches. It is holding the rest of his game hostage.

And until he does he might want to think about cutting down the number of threes he takes. If he wants to play, anyway.

[MerrittsMustache]

NM

I don't want to contribute anymore to this cluster.

[reinko]

NM

I don't want to contribute anymore to this cluster.

[willie warrior]

Willie,

Please read the post I quoted to get the context before responding. Ners claimed that our players hadn't developed under Wojo. I showed him that they had in fact improved from last season. Of course some of it is on the players. It would be foolish to think it isn't. Almost as foolish as the argument I was countering saying that they hadn't improved at all.

You see but you do not observe  

And Buzz really got to you. You really need to let that one go. It's been almost a year.

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought you were claiming it was all Wojo. But I see you have not lent any thing to the possibility that perhaps the Buzzster held any of them back. That is one observation that you will not look at. Methinks that you see but do not observe, colored by your Buzzster spectacles.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Oh you ... with your fancy facts and stats and stuff!

#firewojo

Stats are a weak crutch used by those who never played high school basketball or mastered the eye test.

[tower912]

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought you were claiming it was all Wojo. But I see you have not lent any thing to the possibility that perhaps the Buzzster held any of them back. That is one observation that you will not look at. Methinks that you see but do not observe, colored by your Buzzster spectacles.

Willie, in your opinion, who has shown in their play this year that they were wrongfully denied minutes last year?   I know your opinion that Duane should not have red-shirted.   I disagree about his red-shirting, but I freely acknowledge that had he been healthy he could have contributed last year, possibly substantially.    But among the others; Deonte, JJJ, STjr, JD, who among them has shown enough this year to think they should have gotten more time last year?

[g0lden3agle]

Willie, in your opinion, who has shown in their play this year that they were wrongfully denied minutes last year?   I know your opinion that Duane should not have red-shirted.   I disagree about his red-shirting, but I freely acknowledge that had he been healthy he could have contributed last year, possibly substantially.    But among the others; Deonte, JJJ, STjr, JD, who among them has shown enough this year to think they should have gotten more time last year?

Good luck getting a response.

[79Warrior]

Good luck getting a response.

Indeed. It is painfully obvious why JJJ and STJ saw diminished minutes.

[Lennys Tap]

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought you were claiming it was all Wojo. But I see you have not lent any thing to the possibility that perhaps the Buzzster held any of them back. That is one observation that you will not look at. Methinks that you see but do not observe, colored by your Buzzster spectacles.

Methinks you're the one who can't observe - you're blinded by hate. Buzz coached his own players for four years here. One was lousy, three rank in Marquette's top five in the last thirty-eight.

[willie warrior]

Methinks you're the one who can't observe - you're blinded by hate. Buzz coached his own players for four years here. One was lousy, three rank in Marquette's top five in the last thirty-eight.

Thank you Lenny for your input and love for the phony cowboy. Your point is duly noted. Buzz was the man for you. I am glad that he fooled you also, if it makes your day. As honest Abe said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. And you fall squarely in that second one when it comes to Buzz.

[NersEllenson]

I will now post this for the third time. Look at the team's numbers. What coach, what player, what fan would look at these numbers and say that "wow, this is an ncaa tournament team"? The truth is, every player on our roster has improved greatly from their 2013-2014 selves. The only two who didn't improve were Dawson and Burton. Burton played out of position and was dealing with a terrible tragedy off the court. Dawson just simply wasn't good enough to get on the court.

PG: Derrick Wilson: 5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 tpg, .391 FG%, .071 3P%
SG: Matt Carlino: 13.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 2.0 tpg, .385 FG%, .339 3P%
SF: Deonte Burton: 6.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 tpg, .478 FG%, .500 3P%
PF: Juan Anderson: 3.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.0 tpg, .378 FG% .192 3P%
C: Luke Fischer: 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.5 tpg, .556 FG%, .000  3P% (not available to December 16)

Bench:
1: Jajuan Johnson: 4.3 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.5 tpg, .443 FG%, .290 3P%
2: Steve Taylor: 2.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.7 tpg, .324 FG%, .154 3P%
3: John Dawson: 2.0 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.7 tpg, .320 FG%, .269 3P%
4: Duane Wilson: No Data Available
5: Sandy Cohen: No Data Available

Team Stats:
40.4 points per game
19.7 rebounds per game
12.7 assist per game
437-1086 .402 FG% Matt Carlino by himself had almost as many attempts (426), as FGM by the entire team (437).
88-295 .298 3P% Matt Carlino had 60 of those 88 makes

This is what Wojo inherited. A team that last season averaged around 40 points per game on 40.2 shooting, and 29.8% three point shooting. A team that grabbed under 20 boards a game. A team whose average height at the beginning of the year was 6-3. A team that had one player who shot more than 30% from three on at least 5 makes. A team

If this isn't a rebuilding year, I don't know what is.

TAMU - Still waiting for you to answer the question:  Is it ever a coaches fault for how a team and specific players play/develop under their regime?

And as for your complete waste of time above - you are clearly a guy who can only take something at total and complete face value and not see the real reality.  You are incredibly naive for a guy who's been around 4 major D-1 programs.  Curious - what is your role at the universities you've worked - and which universities?  You believe Burton's statement word for word as the Gospel of the reality?  Players and the families of players post here, and have told you several times he wasn't happy with his role and the way he was being used under Wojo (and rightfully so) - was a joke.

As for your above stats - once again you can't see beyond face value or any context.

Let's look at the minutes played by the guys you mention - yet you will now probably argue that because many of the guys didn't play much as freshman they don't have any experience - yet all of last year argued that getting experience for them wasn't really of any value nor would it give the team the best chance to win.  Yet we floundered to 9-9 season anyway.

But there are 4 Top 60 players on this team Wojo inherited that were sophomores and in either MU's program or Indiana's program for 16+ months.  NONE of those kids got many minutes as freshman so DUH - of course they aren't going to have any production.

If you don't expect 4, Top 60 kids to be good players as sophomores, then you clearly must feel the coaching staff must be lacking in its development?

And you keep saying Wojo couldn't let Mayo back in the program - I wasn't aware of this - So, what was the reason Wojo couldn't allow him back in?  And please, don't cop to "I can't say."  Todd is gone.  Don't have to reveal your source of course but clearly you know something the rest of the board and MU BBall community have yet to reveal or be aware of - so let's hear it.

[willie warrior]

Willie, in your opinion, who has shown in their play this year that they were wrongfully denied minutes last year?   I know your opinion that Duane should not have red-shirted.   I disagree about his red-shirting, but I freely acknowledge that had he been healthy he could have contributed last year, possibly substantially.    But among the others; Deonte, JJJ, STjr, JD, who among them has shown enough this year to think they should have gotten more time last year?

I  guess you are missing the point. And restricting it to the 4 you have mentioned is also a moot point. Different year, different coaches and styles. And you question is restricting the debate. What if we had played zone much more last year as we are this year? Then some people last year may have played more than they did. But there are too many variables to try to answer you question. One could also argue that maybe Juan and Deonte, and possibly JJJ would even be better this year if they played more than last year. My point is, Buzz held some players back from their development by not playing them. That is my belief--you can believe what ever you want. But I am glad the guy is gone. His performance last year and his phony homespun BS wore out his welcome, and his parting BS proves it. I have moved on, just not about my opinion of the Buzzster and the way he screwed it up last year.

[Lennys Tap]

Thank you Lenny for your input and love for the phony cowboy. Your point is duly noted. Buzz was the man for you. I am glad that he fooled you also, if it makes your day. As honest Abe said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. And you fall squarely in that second one when it comes to Buzz.

You're right, Willie. I was fooled. The back to back to back Sweet 16, Sweet 16. Elite 8 seasons didn't happen. Back to back 14-4 records and a conference championship in college basketball's toughest conference didn't either. We all thought they did but your objective eyes know better.

[tower912]

I am not missing the point, you are not answering my question.   Restricting it to those 4 IS the question, as they are the 4 who so many felt were being held back by Buzz.    Buzz played zone last year far more than in years past in order to get Gardner and Otule on the floor at the same time (a huge mistake in my opinion) as neither could play man on the perimeter.    You cite Juan and Deonte.   Who should they have taken minutes from?   Why?  (FWIW, I thought that Buzz should have started Deonte the second half of the season)   From my perspective, the way the aforementioned sophs who played last year have played defense this year actually proves Buzz's point about them.
IYO, Buzz screwed up last year.    I don't disagree, but my reasons are different.    I think that Blue leaving and Otule returning unbalanced the team.   I think he expected the seniors to lead and they didn't.  I think he got trapped with Mayo.   I think that the freshmen were not what he thought they were going to be.   Which left him with a team that HE had created that was the opposite of his prior teams.   Not athletic on the perimeter, slow, low post oriented.  
It was probably time for him to go.   But, IMO, he is still the best coach at MU since Al.   Who was no saint.

[GGGG]

TAMU - Still waiting for you to answer the question:  Is it ever a coaches fault for how a team and specific players play/develop under their regime?

And as for your complete waste of time above - you are clearly a guy who can only take something at total and complete face value and not see the real reality.  You are incredibly naive for a guy who's been around 4 major D-1 programs.  Curious - what is your role at the universities you've worked - and which universities?  You believe Burton's statement word for word as the Gospel of the reality?  Players and the families of players post here, and have told you several times he wasn't happy with his role and the way he was being used under Wojo (and rightfully so) - was a joke.

As for your above stats - once again you can't see beyond face value or any context.

Let's look at the minutes played by the guys you mention - yet you will now probably argue that because many of the guys didn't play much as freshman they don't have any experience - yet all of last year argued that getting experience for them wasn't really of any value nor would it give the team the best chance to win.  Yet we floundered to 9-9 season anyway.

But there are 4 Top 60 players on this team Wojo inherited that were sophomores and in either MU's program or Indiana's program for 16+ months.  NONE of those kids got many minutes as freshman so DUH - of course they aren't going to have any production.

If you don't expect 4, Top 60 kids to be good players as sophomores, then you clearly must feel the coaching staff must be lacking in its development?

And you keep saying Wojo couldn't let Mayo back in the program - I wasn't aware of this - So, what was the reason Wojo couldn't allow him back in?  And please, don't cop to "I can't say."  Todd is gone.  Don't have to reveal your source of course but clearly you know something the rest of the board and MU BBall community have yet to reveal or be aware of - so let's hear it.

I thought you were done arguing?

Is this yet another moratorium that you show no will power to follow through with?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have been part of the problem in this thread. I should not have participated. Be the change, right?

If Ners wants to play this role again, that's fine. Just keep it contained within specific threads. I'll just ignore and stay out of those topics. I have full control over what I read.

If it starts to spread out to repeated threads, then I'll suggest that the mods will have to step in again.

Rage on, gentleman. Rage on.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU - Still waiting for you to answer the question:  Is it ever a coaches fault for how a team and specific players play/develop under their regime?

I did answer the question two pages ago

I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

You believe Burton's statement word for word as the Gospel of the reality?  Players and the families of players post here, and have told you several times he wasn't happy with his role and the way he was being used under Wojo (and rightfully so) - was a joke.

That's not what I said. I said it is disrespectful to question a kid's motives for transferring after he said it was because of his mother passing. Imagine telling Deonte "I know you said you transferred because staying in Milwaukee was to painful after your mother's death. But you really transferred because of your playing time. C'mon, we all know its true." If I was Deonte, I'd want to punch someone who was saying that about me.  I also truly believe the primary motive for his transfer was his mother's death. I don't believe it was the only reason, but I do think it was the main one. But I don't know that. Only Deonte can know that. I don't know why others feel the need to talk about Deonte as if they can read his mind.

If you don't expect 4, Top 60 kids to be good players as sophomores, then you clearly must feel the coaching staff must be lacking in its development?

I already answered this:

I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

All of the players have improved significantly, other than Dawson and Burton. The problem lies in the fact that you have unreasonable expectations for how much each player should have improved. Truth is, we are overperforming compared to what most experts predicted.

And you keep saying Wojo couldn't let Mayo back in the program - I wasn't aware of this - So, what was the reason Wojo couldn't allow him back in?  And please, don't cop to "I can't say."  Todd is gone.  Don't have to reveal your source of course but clearly you know something the rest of the board and MU BBall community have yet to reveal or be aware of - so let's hear it.

I actually said that Mayo fooked up so badly that Wojo couldn't have taken him back even if he wanted to, which he didn't. And no, I won't say why because I have been specifically asked not to. However, I will say that the reason has been shared on this board. I dismissed it at first because I didn't believe it. But I had it confirmed by someone I trust. I believe you will find it in one of the original "Mayo is gone" threads.

[mu03eng]

IMHO, if you can't see the improvement in this team, players and coaches, you don't want to see the improvement.  There are absolutely areas which further improvement can be made, but the trend is in a positive direction.

The almost wins that turn into losses are frustrating, but honestly, they have exceed my expectations and I think expectations of any fan that isn't colored by hate and/or a need to be contrarian.  This team was in a bad place to start the season, they have adjusted and developed players and are on track for a 8-10 or 9-9 conference finish.  Am I happy about that no, I want more but I can't expect more than that.

I don't know how anyone could expect a NCAA bid from this team and not be tested for a drug addiction.

[brewcity77]

IMHO, if you can't see the improvement in this team, players and coaches, you don't want to see the improvement.  There are absolutely areas which further improvement can be made, but the trend is in a positive direction.

The almost wins that turn into losses are frustrating, but honestly, they have exceed my expectations and I think expectations of any fan that isn't colored by hate and/or a need to be contrarian.  This team was in a bad place to start the season, they have adjusted and developed players and are on track for a 8-10 or 9-9 conference finish.  Am I happy about that no, I want more but I can't expect more than that.

I don't know how anyone could expect a NCAA bid from this team and not be tested for a drug addiction.

After UNO, there were people questioning if we would win a single Big East game. We've already doubled that and been competitive in every one of them. Getting anywhere near .500 considering where we were a couple months ago would be a huge accomplishment. This team is better, the players are better, and the program trajectory is better. Anyone saying otherwise is just trying to argue for the sake of it, not because of any thoughts grounded in reality.