Wojo Post Game (Comments on JJJ DNP)

[GGGG]

If it did happen, sure as sh$t you can bet Wojo would have said as much in his presser when asked multiple times about it.  Answer would have gone:  "I told JuJuan that I didn't like his approach in practice the last two days, and as a result he wasn't going to play against Xavier."  

So because he didn't SAY he had a conversation with JJJ, you are going to ASSUME he didn't?  That is laughably nonsensical.  Man you have come up with some bizarre crap before, but this is the pinnacle of bizarreness.

Furthermore, if a conversation did happen immediately after practice - a more mature approach by the coach would be to come to an understanding with the player, let them know that if they see it again, sense it again, it will result in a game benching.

Again, you have NO CLUE what happened.  NO CLUE about previous conversations.  Yet you are making assumption after assumption instead of taking Wojo at his word with no evidence to the contrary.

[GGGG]

Fair point.  However, do you not think Wojo would have made mention of having had a talk/talks with JJJ about his practice habits - when asked why he didn't play - if in fact he did have multiple conversations?

Why?  To defend himself from those (such as yourself) who don't take him at his word?

[Lighthouse 84]

Stop being a clown. The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

Sending a message isn't necessarily "mind games".  It's showing JjJ AND the rest of the team what happens when someone doesn't give everything they have in practice.  I'm not there at practice, nor are you, but my guess is that neither Wojo nor the other assistants at practice, nor his teammates, just let JjJ or any other player, just slack, give a half-assed effort, goof off, etc. without saying something multiple times during practice.  Do you really think practice ended, no one said di@k to JjJ and then he just didn't play?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Fair point.  However, do you not think Wojo would have made mention of having had a talk/talks with JJJ about his practice habits - when asked why he didn't play - if in fact he did have multiple conversations?

Absolutely not. I have never met a single coach that would reveal anything more than what Wojo said in his presser. Think about it, if Wojo goes into detail and says something to the effect of "JjJ has had multiple practices where he didn't bring it to a level I was happy with. I have had multiple conversations with him about this and he knew the consequences so I benched him"

That conversation throws JjJ under the bus several times over. As a player, I would be livid if a coach took what was a private conversation and threw it out to the media. It would break my trust in my coach. A good coach shares as little about situations with the media as possible.

But you know this. At least you should. You are inventing stories and narratives, again.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

Ok, so what we have is an argument of definitions. To me, a mind game would be benching a kid, who doesn't deserve it, for no reason. An argument could even be for benching a kid who deserves but not telling him why he deserves it, could be a mind game.

Benching a kid who deserves it, and telling him why he is benched, is not a mind game. It is sending a message. But more than anything it is holding a player accountable which is ALWAYS a good thing.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Context - On a team with 8 scholarship players...and one of whom is a freshman.

Totally fair.

How many minutes do you think JJJ should get?

If he continues to be bad (in conf. he's been bad), how long would you stick with him?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If you don't expect 4 consensus Top 60 high school players to take a major leap in their sophomore year in a program - Fischer, Duane, Burton, JJJ - then the perhaps you need to look at the coaching staff as to their ability to develop players.

I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

[jesmu84]

Maybe the better question is why do we want a coach who loses the respect of his players?  Buzz lost Jamil, Gardner, JJJ, Steve last year...and to a small extent Burton and Dawson.

This year, Wojo has lost Burton, Dawson, and is now engaging in a dicey area with JJJ.  We have 3 open scholarships.  If JJJ leaves, that's 4.  Trusting that process?

What you and the other usual suspects here continue to do is only see things from the coaches perspective - perhaps largely, because you've never been a player at gasp - even the high school level.

Texas Western has 2 kids that are D-1 Athletes - think he has a little bit more insight and understanding into the dynamics on the player side of the equation?

You've stated this multiple times in this thread alone. Do you really believe Wojo "lost" Burton? I'll go along with you with Dawson. But Burton? You really believe there were no other forces at play other than Wojo and his "losing" Burton? Nothing about Burton's family/home life? Or other influences (AAU coach) on Burton? Heck, Burton even stated publicly it was about his personal situation.

[MerrittsMustache]

You've stated this multiple times in this thread alone. Do you really believe Wojo "lost" Burton? I'll go along with you with Dawson. But Burton? You really believe there were no other forces at play other than Wojo and his "losing" Burton? Nothing about Burton's family/home life? Or other influences (AAU coach) on Burton? Heck, Burton even stated publicly it was about his personal situation.

Wojo was also attempting to do Dawson a favor by sitting him out after that first game in hopes of giving him that semester of ball back. It doesn't seem like there was a lot of bad blood there by any means.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

Time for another 30 day vacation.  Mods, make it so!

[79Warrior]

Time for another 30 day vacation.  Mods, make it so!

folks should just stop responding to his drivel.

[NersEllenson]

I'm done arguing with all of you who don't have the first bit of clue as to what it is like from the player perspective.  You clowns defended Buzz up and down all of last season, made excuse after excuse for him, as well as now making excuses for Wojo and how we have no business being an NCAA tournament team, and how he inherited such an awful situation.  Furthermore, you take up beyond belief for a guy who is so incredibly limited at his position at this level, while attacking players that actually have much more skill, potential and ability.

In the view of many of you that have little to no playing experience - the head coach is always right.  Never his fault, right?  

Here's a question:  How many of you are Packer fans?  Any of you have beefs with how McCarthy and Capers coached that game?

Well if you did - Stop, you are being ridiculous, they've forgotten more about football than you'll ever know.  They are paid millions of dollars.  As if that's some type of tonic that absolves them of ever making mistakes?  Please.

[GGGG]

I'm done arguing

[brewcity77]

LOL - Read my signature Brew if you want a refresher on "clown" takes.  No, this isn't about Derrick - it's about JJJ getting benched for a game.  It's about JJJ being a very talented player - very similar to a guy you loved - Vander Blue, once again perhaps becoming disenchanted with Marquette.  It's about having 3 open scholarships already, a dicey situation now with Nick N, and not wanting to lose another talented player as we did in Burton.

That take remains as true as the day I said it. I'm honored that you believe it so thoroughly that you keep it in your signature line. A testament to highly you hold me in esteem 

JJJ is a talented player, but the comparison to Vander is a poor one for the same reason the comparisons to Derrick are poor. Both Vander and Derrick were always plus defenders. I realize you are completely incapable of realizing that basketball occurs at two ends of the floor.

And comically, you cite numbers on JJJ this year that point toward him having no business playing much, yet in reality all of last season you championed the merits and value of Derrick?  Come on man. And btw - Derrick is of course better this year - as you simply aren't going to get any worse than last season.  However, he's averaging 1.8 Turnovers per game in conference play.  And let's keep in mind, Pomeroy classifies him as being a Limited Role player, based on usage - so again, he isn't going to have a high propensity to turn the ball over, because rarely is he used on the offensive end of the floor.

I didn't say no business playing. I think he is getting about the right amount of time. But you are trying to make an apples to oranges comparison (yet again). Not surprisingly, right after you say it's not about Derrick, you write a paragraph about Derrick. Derrick is considered a limited role player because he doesn't shoot a lot. You don't seem to want him to shoot a lot. I fail to see how you have a problem with that.

That isn't me hating on Derrick either - it's calling it as it is.  I can live with Derrick playing 20-25 minutes per game as he's been performing.  Derrick is averaging 34.8 minutes in conference play.

Again, all about Derrick. The simple truth is you don't get it. You have no ability to watch and understand what's going on in a basketball game. I know you played high school basketball, but apparently you didn't learn anything in the process. You gripe yet again about Derrick's minutes, try to compare him to Dawson, Burton, Johnson, it's all ludicrous.

Above, you complained about my defense of Derrick last year, as though it is somehow relevant. It isn't, and this is why: Last year there was no other option. So far, every professional basketball coach that has been around Derrick and Dawson (the "other option" last year) has determined not only that Derrick is the better player, but that he is so vastly superior that he deserves to play 30+ minutes per game when Dawson is the alternative.

When we talk about Jajuan, that is not the case. Jajuan plays a role that can be filled by Duane, Carlino, and Juan. Once again, no matter how you try to argue otherwise, Jajuan is not competing for minutes with Derrick. He just isn't. He is competing with guys that play at the wing positions. That's not Derrick. And unlike last year with Derrick, there ARE other options. So far, those other options have been better.

Jajuan is still earning minutes. He sat for ONE freaking game. He didn't freak out on Twitter, he hasn't left school, he didn't throw a hissy fit on the bench, he sat for one game. Because Wojo did his job and decided to coach. So why not let the coach do his job rather than throwing all your toys out of the tub because of ONE decision you didn't like? Jesus man, grow up. It's one game. If Jajuan decides to pull a Marcus Marshall and doesn't play another minute at Marquette, then and ONLY then will you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, please knock it off. You sound like a raving freaking lunatic.

[NersEllenson]

Wojo was also attempting to do Dawson a favor by sitting him out after that first game in hopes of giving him that semester of ball back. It doesn't seem like there was a lot of bad blood there by any means.

LOL - Where is everybody jumping down Merritt's throat for a clearly speculative statement that he has NO proof or knowledge of.  Furthermore, the statement is totally and completely false.  I'm sure the Dawson family can attest to this.  And for real?  This is your logic Merritt?  Hey, I'm going to give John Dawson 4 minutes against Tennessee Martin to assess if I want him to remain at the program or encourage a transfer???  He did Dawson a HUGE disservice by playing him those 4 minutes.  If he had John's best interests at heart, and didn't feel he could be a contributor based on what he'd been seeing in practice - why freaking play him 4 minutes???

[brewcity77]

I'm done arguing with all of you who don't have the first bit of clue as to what it is like from the player perspective.

You don't have the first bit of clue either. You played sports in high school. I would guess 90% of this board played sports in high school. That's not an accomplishment. Unless you played high-major division I sports, don't pretend you have some knowledge no one else here can understand.

[Pakuni]

You don't have the first bit of clue either. You played sports in high school. I would guess 90% of this board played sports in high school. That's not an accomplishment. Unless you played high-major division I sports, don't pretend you have some knowledge no one else here can understand.

Ners' experience playing high school basketball apparently gives him greater insight into the players' perspective than that of Wojo, Carawell, Nelson and Diener.
I mean, really, what could those guys possibly know about the mindset of a Division I basketball player anyhow?

[bilsu]

Considering we are a just a few colossal meltdowns away from being 4-1 in the Big East WITHOUT Todd Mayo and Denote Burton - 2 guys I figured would be our leading scorers - yes, I felt we had legit NCAA prospects.

If you don't expect 4 consensus Top 60 high school players to take a major leap in their sophomore year in a program - Fischer, Duane, Burton, JJJ - then the perhaps you need to look at the coaching staff as to their ability to develop players.

We have been in every Big East game. We could be 5-0 and we also could be 0-5 as all the games were reasonably close at the end. However, if we were 5-0 I still would not think we would be a guaranteed NCAA tournament team.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

This is bad.  Real bad.

And I only read this last page. 

[NersEllenson]

That take remains as true as the day I said it. I'm honored that you believe it so thoroughly that you keep it in your signature line. A testament to highly you hold me in esteem 

JJJ is a talented player, but the comparison to Vander is a poor one for the same reason the comparisons to Derrick are poor. Both Vander and Derrick were always plus defenders. I realize you are completely incapable of realizing that basketball occurs at two ends of the floor.

I didn't say no business playing. I think he is getting about the right amount of time. But you are trying to make an apples to oranges comparison (yet again). Not surprisingly, right after you say it's not about Derrick, you write a paragraph about Derrick. Derrick is considered a limited role player because he doesn't shoot a lot. You don't seem to want him to shoot a lot. I fail to see how you have a problem with that.

Again, all about Derrick. The simple truth is you don't get it. You have no ability to watch and understand what's going on in a basketball game. I know you played high school basketball, but apparently you didn't learn anything in the process. You gripe yet again about Derrick's minutes, try to compare him to Dawson, Burton, Johnson, it's all ludicrous.

Above, you complained about my defense of Derrick last year, as though it is somehow relevant. It isn't, and this is why: Last year there was no other option. So far, every professional basketball coach that has been around Derrick and Dawson (the "other option" last year) has determined not only that Derrick is the better player, but that he is so vastly superior that he deserves to play 30+ minutes per game when Dawson is the alternative.

When we talk about Jajuan, that is not the case. Jajuan plays a role that can be filled by Duane, Carlino, and Juan. Once again, no matter how you try to argue otherwise, Jajuan is not competing for minutes with Derrick. He just isn't. He is competing with guys that play at the wing positions. That's not Derrick. And unlike last year with Derrick, there ARE other options. So far, those other options have been better.

Jajuan is still earning minutes. He sat for ONE freaking game. He didn't freak out on Twitter, he hasn't left school, he didn't throw a hissy fit on the bench, he sat for one game. Because Wojo did his job and decided to coach. So why not let the coach do his job rather than throwing all your toys out of the tub because of ONE decision you didn't like? Jesus man, grow up. It's one game. If Jajuan decides to pull a Marcus Marshall and doesn't play another minute at Marquette, then and ONLY then will you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, please knock it off. You sound like a raving freaking lunatic.

LOL - JJJ isn't a "plus" defender in your book?  Okay.  Derrick was a better option for last year's team than Cadougan?  Okay.  You tried to make this about Derrick - and you were complaining about JJJ's stats and citing why he shouldn't be playing much - which for this year, look markedly better than what Derrick offered up last year, yet who was beating the Derrick Wilson drum so loud last season??  See the irony and how that comes full circle?

Who beat Vander Blue's drum so loud?  You.  JJJ looks just like Vander as a sophomore.  And as for JJJ not playing the same "position" as Derrick - well, with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino starting, you don't HAVE to have Derrick on the floor.  It can just as easily be said Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino play the same position as Derrick.  They all are practically interchangeable.

At the end of the day, once again we'll have another crappy MU basketball season, when it simply didn't have to be one.  But, we can "trust the process."  

[NersEllenson]

We have been in every Big East game. We could be 5-0 and we also could be 0-5 as all the games were reasonably close at the end. However, if we were 5-0 I still would not think we would be a guaranteed NCAA tournament team.

That's exactly the point - we are that close to being 4-1 even without 2 guys who could/would have been huge contributors - Burton and Mayo.  There was plenty of talent on this team the day Wojo was hired to be an NCAA tourney team.  Period.

People downplaying this year's team, and what a tough situation Wojo inherited are simply not holding him accountable to the reality.  He inherited a very good situation.  Not sure if ever before has an MU coach walked into a program with 4 Top 60 sophomores, and 8 Top 100 players.

[brewcity77]

LOL - JJJ isn't a "plus" defender in your book?  Okay.  Derrick was a better option for last year's team than Cadougan?  Okay.  You tried to make this about Derrick - and you were complaining about JJJ's stats and citing why he shouldn't be playing much - which for this year, look markedly better than what Derrick offered up last year, yet who was beating the Derrick Wilson drum so loud last season??  See the irony and how that comes full circle?

Why not try reading the quote in your signature. You clearly don't understand it. My argument wasn't whether Derrick was better or worse than Junior, but rather that Junior wouldn't have fixed the problems with last year's team.

And try reading the post you quoted, too. JJJ's stats should be compared to the guys ahead of him. Those guys are Carlino, Duane, and Juan. Derrick is not one of those guys. He is not relevant to the argument. The only irony is how you keep posting things without understanding what they mean.

Who beat Vander Blue's drum so loud?  You.  JJJ looks just like Vander as a sophomore.  And as for JJJ not playing the same "position" as Derrick - well, with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino starting, you don't HAVE to have Derrick on the floor.  It can just as easily be said Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino play the same position as Derrick.  They all are practically interchangeable.

Vander does not look like JJJ as a sophomore, unless you are only looking at offensive stats. If you can't see how often JJJ overplays steal attempts and gets himself out of position, clearly you don't understand how to watch that end of the floor.

And they are not practically interchangeable. Derrick is always the primary ball handler when he is on the court. Matt and Duane are secondary ball handlers that fill in for Derrick's role when he isn't out there. Jajuan is NEVER the primary ball handler. Matt and Duane compete with Derrick for minutes, but Jajuan does not. However because Matt and Duane flex down to other positions, Jajuan competes with them at the 2/3. If he wants more minutes, he has to beat them, unless he becomes a primary ball handler.

At the end of the day, once again we'll have another crappy MU basketball season, when it simply didn't have to be one.  But, we can "trust the process."

So why watch? If it's all crappy, if last year was crappy, why do you care? You seem to have such disdain for this coach and this team, I honestly don't get why you invest yourself so heavily. If you can't enjoy it, what is the point?

Seriously. What is the point?

[willie warrior]

I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

Not sure I understand your convoluted meandering argument here. It appears to say that this vast improvement was due to Wojo, but is it possible the kids had something to do with it, or is it possible that it could be due to everybody's hero, the phony cowboy holding those guys back? Oh my, we better not even explore the phony cowboy's involvement here, because he was, after all a savior to the program, and could do no wrong. He was the master at motivation and player development, as well as phony Bu#$s*&t.

[Lighthouse 84]

I'm done arguing with all of you who don't have the first bit of clue as to what it is like from the player perspective.  

Reading this, and most of the rest of what you wrote in this thread, makes me think you feel all players should be mollycoddled since they've been stars in high school.  Maybe Wojo should split everyone's playing time equally so no one gets upset.  Then, he could buy them all treats at the end of the game and trophies at the end of the year.

Maybe you pouted and wanted to quit if he coach didn't do everything the way you wanted, but I, for one, think JjJ has more stones than that and will rise to the occasion for every practice and game the rest of the season, thereby earning Wojo's faith and trust in him again as a player. Again, if I'm wrong, then he shouldn't be on the Warriors.  

[ATL MU Warrior]

Unfortunately, fool's gold.