Wojo Post Game (Comments on JJJ DNP)

[NersEllenson]

Upside is good, but production is better. JJJ will get more minutes if he can prove he can capitalize on his potential, not because his high school rating says it exists. I have high hopes for him, but his play of late hasn't warranted more. Hopefully this motivates him to find that next level.

Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

[MU82]

Bottom line:

Either you take our first-year coach at his word ... or you think that he is a lying, mind-flucking jerk.

I choose to take Wojo at his word. Maybe that means I am a dupe. But it is a hell of a lot better for my psyche and my Warrior fandom than inventing narratives, speculating wildly and being hyper-cynical.

[GGGG]

Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

Really?  You are comparing JJJ to Derrick?  They play different positions and different roles on the team.

Regardless, Derrick is better than JJJ right now.  Look at their OR.  Look at JJJ's turnovers.  Hell, look at their shooting percentages!!  When did you think that you could ever say that about Derrick compared to another guard.

Give it up man. 

[NersEllenson]

Really?  You are comparing JJJ to Derrick?  They play different positions and different roles on the team.

Regardless, Derrick is better than JJJ right now.  Look at their OR.  Look at JJJ's turnovers.  Hell, look at their shooting percentages!!  When did you think that you could ever say that about Derrick compared to another guard.

Give it up man. 

They both are guards.  With Duane and Carlino on the floor, you have capable ball handlers.  Period.  I look at the players side by side and see one guy who would score twice the points per 40 minutes, on 2% worse shooting from the field, yet when you factor all shooting percentages (True Shooting percentage) JJJ shoots it better than does Derrick.  JJJ is used twice as much in the way of Possession Percentage, is a much more aggressive player, which will result in more turnovers.

I'm not hating on Derrick here by any means.  He's improved much over last year.  Simply pointing out that when you look at JJJ side by side to either Derrick or Duane - you can make a very good and reasonable case for JJJ deserving more minutes.

[jesmu84]

Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

And there it is. Holy crap. A month away and nothing changed. Guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[GGGG]

They both are guards.  With Duane and Carlino on the floor, you have capable ball handlers.  Period.  I look at the players side by side and see one guy who would score twice the points per 40 minutes, on 2% worse shooting from the field, yet when you factor all shooting percentages (True Shooting percentage) JJJ shoots it better than does Derrick.  JJJ is used twice as much in the way of Possession Percentage, is a much more aggressive player, which will result in more turnovers.

IOW, "I like statistics when they reinforce my narrative.  If they don't, I either come up with reasons why, or a just fall back on the eye-test."

[MerrittsMustache]

They both are guards.  With Duane and Carlino on the floor, you have capable ball handlers.  Period.  I look at the players side by side and see one guy who would score twice the points per 40 minutes, on 2% worse shooting from the field, yet when you factor all shooting percentages (True Shooting percentage) JJJ shoots it better than does Derrick.  JJJ is used twice as much in the way of Possession Percentage, is a much more aggressive player, which will result in more turnovers.

I'm not hating on Derrick here by any means.  He's improved much over last year.  Simply pointing out that when you look at JJJ side by side to either Derrick or Duane - you can make a very good and reasonable case for JJJ deserving more minutes.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers from but...

TS% (Season)
JJJ: 49.0%
Derrick: 48.8%
Duane: 52.7%

TS% (Conf)
JJJ: 35.9%
Derrick: 57.2%
Duane: 49.5%

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Sorry to steal your comic Merritt, but I figured it would apply here too.  I think it's unfair for teachers to play mind games with students.

[tower912]

Derrick:  530 minutes:   3pt % .304   FG % .446, TO's 20   (1 every 26.5 minutes)
JaJuan:  345 minutes:   3pt % .175    FG % .426, TO's 30   (1 every 11.5 minutes)

Aren't stats fun?

Yup, Jajuan has more steals, blocks and rebounds.  Total, not just per minute.  He is taller and playing at the top of the zone, after all.     He shoots free throws better.    He is a wing who's job it is to score, play disruptive defense, get out and run.    Derrick's job is to wrestle with much bigger players down low, run the offense, protect the ball.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

So, the real issue is that you would rather see JJJ play than Derrick?

[NersEllenson]

And all the usual suspects align in disagreement of course.  So predictable.  Can't even look at the data objectively.

And sorry Merritt - I was looking at season stats when comparing - a 16 game sample size seems more relevant than in JJJ's case 4 conference games played.

[GGGG]

So, the real issue is that you would rather see JJJ play than Derrick?

You know that Michael Mache kid?  He hasn't turned the ball over once since being named to the team!  And you know what?  He hasn't played for the last *two* games!  Why is Wojo screwing around with his head?

At what point do you sit Derrick, who is a senior, and let the Mache play?  Derrick's not getting any better and Mache is only a junior!

[GGGG]

And all the usual suspects align in disagreement of course.  So predictable.  Can't even look at the data objectively.

I looked at the data objectively.  You ignored my point about OR.  You explained away my point about turnovers.  Who isn't being objective here?

[tower912]

I am looking at the data objectively.   A year ago, off of a limited sample size, you extrapolated that JD's stats were better than Derrick's and developed a religion that said that JD deserves more minutes.   This year, it is a much more mixed bag of statistics that slightly favors Derrick over JaJuan and your argument is that JaJuan deserves more minutes.   In other words, your argument is that regardless of the statistics, everybody deserves more minutes than Derrick.

[NersEllenson]

So, the real issue is that you would rather see JJJ play than Derrick?

The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

I'm simply pointing out that there is a reasonable case that can be made for JJJ playing more minutes, and that neither Duane nor Derrick are significantly outperforming him by any stretch of the imagination.

Derrick has been better.  Nobody denies that.  I still know that like many, we aren't going to be a winning team with Derrick playing 35 minutes a game.  We now have both Duane and Carilno as other options, so the argument made last season "Buzz didn't have a better option" is moot.  I would prefer a guy with more potential, that would give us roughly 7.5 points more per 40 minutes, that is only a sophomore to get more playing time on a team that isn't going anywhere in its current form other than perhaps the NIT.

[Lennys Tap]

I have to laugh when Ners defends JJJ launching early in the shot clock contested 3s as something Wojo wants. Really? A SHOOTING guard whose form is atrocious and is 1-13 vs non conference non cupcakes (OSU, MSU, ASU, UW, Tenn and GT) and 0-10 in the Big East from 3 (1-23 total, a whopping 4.3%) is a guy he wants shooting early contested 3s? Those are "good shots"? Because he's "talented"? He has the talent to score at the rim. And his midrange game isn't bad. He can draw fouls and shoot free throws. But a guy who insists on being a volume shooter (5.4 threes per 40 minutes) and only makes one in a blue moon against any real competition hurts his team big time.

[NersEllenson]

I looked at the data objectively.  You ignored my point about OR.  You explained away my point about turnovers.  Who isn't being objective here?

Turnovers are your whole argument...and they play a huge factor in calculating O-Rating.  Derrick is good with the ball - that also is partially due to the fact that he rarely is aggressive, is "used" in half the possessions that a player like JJJ is, and per Pomroy, once again is classified as a "Limited Role" player, yet plays the most minutes on the team.

You fail to understand how a player that is so incredibly passive hurts the whole team.  Much like Green Bay lost against Seattle due to being passive - it's never a winning formula.  Give me aggression and playmaking all day, every day on a basketball court - even at the expense of some turnovers.  You can't get something for nothing.  And our record last year, and once again this year bears out this reality.  The mentality has been one of playing not to lose - fearing the potential outcomes of some turnovers/mistakes, versus the potential upside gained from more aggressive, playmaking players.  JJJ, Burton, Mayo, Dawson, etc.

[ATL MU Warrior]

The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

I'm simply pointing out that there is a reasonable case that can be made for JJJ playing more minutes, and that neither Duane nor Derrick are significantly outperforming him by any stretch of the imagination.

Derrick has been better.  Nobody denies that.  I still know that like many, we aren't going to be a winning team with Derrick playing 35 minutes a game.  We now have both Duane and Carilno as other options, so the argument made last season "Buzz didn't have a better option" is moot.  I would prefer a guy with more potential, that would give us roughly 7.5 points more per 40 minutes, that is only a sophomore to get more playing time on a team that isn't going anywhere in its current form other than perhaps the NIT.

The sooner you accept this season for what it is* rather than the alternate reality you have created**, the sooner you will be able to stop posting these "solutions" that only you are capable of seeing.  

* A year with only 8 scholarship players, most of whom have never meaningfully contributed at the college level, is not destined to be a great year.  In other words, a year where the NIT is actually an accomplishment.

** a magical universe where HS ratings automatically translate into college production

[NersEllenson]

The sooner you accept this season for what it is* rather than the alternate reality you have created**, the sooner you will be able to stop posting these "solutions" that only you are capable of seeing.  

* A year with only 8 scholarship players, most of whom have never meaningfully contributed at the college level, is not destined to be a great year.  In other words, a year where the NIT is actually an accomplishment.

** a magical universe where HS ratings automatically translate into college production

A year that began with 10 scholarship players.  Perhaps 11.  Wojo kicked Todd off team.  8 Top 100 players.  One being a 5th year senior, another a senior, one a junior (Steve, albeit not a good player), and then 4 TOP 60 players as sophomores - Burton, Fischer, JJJ, Duane. And Cohen as a freshman.

Good Lord - talk about having low expectations.  What narrative HAS BEEN CREATED by the usual suspects, is that this year should be a rebuilding year.  There WAS PLENTY of talent on this team when Wojo took over to be an NCAA team..period.

[NersEllenson]

And one more for my "friends" - Many of you guys defended the hell out of Vander as a sophomore.  Keep in mind he's playing on a Sweet 16 caliber team with guys like Jae and DJO. Vander and JJJ as sophomores are basically the exact same player...

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=vander-blue&i=1&p1=3-jajuan-johnson&vander-blue=2011-2012

[Lennys Tap]

The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

Does you eye test tell you he a good shooter in a slump? That even though he's 1-23 (4.3%) versus real teams he should be shooting more 3s? JJJ is a great leaper. He can help us (a weak rebounding team) on the boards. JJJ is a very good slasher. He can score at the rim and at the free throw line if he's willing to do the dirty work. But he is a lousy perimeter player, an abysmal outside shooter with a loose handle. He could be a very, very, very poor man's D Wade if he took it to the hole and rebounded at both ends. Dwyane knew from practice he wasn't much of an outside shooter and until he got better at it he found other ways to score and help his team. For some reason almost two years in that light hasn't gone on for JJJ. Playing him in hopes it does isn't the answer - that hurts the team too much. Time to start playing smarter or not play at all.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

I'm simply pointing out that there is a reasonable case that can be made for JJJ playing more minutes, and that neither Duane nor Derrick are significantly outperforming him by any stretch of the imagination.

Derrick has been better.  Nobody denies that.  I still know that like many, we aren't going to be a winning team with Derrick playing 35 minutes a game.  We now have both Duane and Carilno as other options, so the argument made last season "Buzz didn't have a better option" is moot.  I would prefer a guy with more potential, that would give us roughly 7.5 points more per 40 minutes, that is only a sophomore to get more playing time on a team that isn't going anywhere in its current form other than perhaps the NIT.

Again, JJJ wasn't benched because of game production. He was benched because of poor practice(s).

If he has a string of great practices, it's likely his "leash" will get longer. BTW, he's a soph. avg. 21+ min per game. His leash isn't that short.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And one more for my "friends" - Many of you guys defended the hell out of Vander as a sophomore.  Keep in mind he's playing on a Sweet 16 caliber team with guys like Jae and DJO. Vander and JJJ as sophomores are basically the exact same player...

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=vander-blue&i=1&p1=3-jajuan-johnson&vander-blue=2011-2012

JJJ was benched for poor practice(s)... that's not shown in the stats.

AND, Vander averaged a whopping 4 more minutes per game.

21 vs 25.

Seems like JJJ is getting plenty of run, right?

[bilsu]

Turnovers are your whole argument...and they play a huge factor in calculating O-Rating.  Derrick is good with the ball - that also is partially due to the fact that he rarely is aggressive, is "used" in half the possessions that a player like JJJ is, and per Pomroy, once again is classified as a "Limited Role" player, yet plays the most minutes on the team.

You fail to understand how a player that is so incredibly passive hurts the whole team.  Much like Green Bay lost against Seattle due to being passive - it's never a winning formula.  Give me aggression and playmaking all day, every day on a basketball court - even at the expense of some turnovers.  You can't get something for nothing.  And our record last year, and once again this year bears out this reality.  The mentality has been one of playing not to lose - fearing the potential outcomes of some turnovers/mistakes, versus the potential upside gained from more aggressive, playmaking players.  JJJ, Burton, Mayo, Dawson, etc.

I think you fail to realize that when the team is out of sorts it is Derrick who pulls the ball out and settles the team down. Will MU win 50 % of its game with Derrick? I am not sure, but I am pretty sure we would be 0-5 in the Big East without Derrick.

[Dawson Rental]

I'm really glad I'm not an employee of the Ners' frozen yogurt empire.  Working my butt off conscientiously just to see some slacker get promoted over me because Ners liked him more during the job interview more than two years ago.