Wojo Post Game (Comments on JJJ DNP)

[NersEllenson]

Ah, the old Gish Gallop from you again.  So now it isn't about Derrick or Carlino, it's really about Duane?  And JJJ shouldn't sit for not doing what is expected of him because he is better than Duane?

Ok, Big East play:

FG%/3P%/TO per 40

Duane  .364/.286/2.79
JJJ       .290/.000/5.41

Once again, your narrative has nothing to do with reality. I look forward to your next moving of the goalposts.

I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either..if you want, go back to the Wisconsin game as a starting point.  

JJJ will be a good college player - whether at MU or elsewhere.  

[NersEllenson]

It's Derrick's fault.    Flooding?   Derrick's fault.   Earthquakes?    Derrick's fault.   Terrorism?   Buzz and Wojo falling for Derrick's sycophantic practice habits.    Male pattern baldness?   The fool's gold of knowing your assignment, playing defense, protecting the ball, being a leader.   The Packer's collapse against Seattle?   Derrick's fault.    It was Derrick that picked up the flag during the Dallas/Detroit game.   Derrick was on the grassy knoll in Dallas.    The 25 year premature premonition of Derrick's presence drove Dahmer insane.   

Obsessed much? 

[tower912]

You are Dr. Leo Marvin.   Derrick is Bob.    You make me laugh. 

[Texas Western]

Fair question...and I'd ask the same back to you: Is it ever a coaches fault, or is it always the players?  You and many of the others I consistently disagreed with last year and this year generally always take the view that it is the players fault (other than Derrick's of course)?

With regard to the last two seasons, I call it the way I see it.  I've seen highly unproductive veterans NOT get benched for poor and awful play ON the floor, while seeing more talented, albeit younger players nailed to the bench for not apparently performing well enough in practice.

Personally my view on last year and this year is that you play the younger, more talented guys, who are the future of the program - let them get a lot of game experience, take their lumps - and as a coach give the player actual game data to say, "Look, based on your play in games, this is where we need to improve."  (You make that conclusion once the veterans are consistently proving they aren't a winning formula - as was the case last year..and will be again this year.)  I've said many times when a player is looking over their shoulder at the bench if they make a mistake, they play tight, play under pressure, and that does NOT lead to their best performance.  

This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

Meme watch: Extended Leash

[connie]

This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

You say these things without any support.  Certainly the numbers do not suggest you are correct. They show better performance by Duane despite the past six or so games and while Duane plays more minutes, not dramatically so. I don't know what basis you have to dispute Wojo's statements about the justification for sitting JJJ but you certainly haven't clued anyone else in.  I do not know the kid, but accept your view, and if you are right, then let's hope he learns from this and doesn't do whatever it was that caused him to get benched. It's not like we don't need all the help we can get.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either..if you want, go back to the Wisconsin game as a starting point.  

JJJ will be a good college player - whether at MU or elsewhere.  

I think most people think JJJ can be a good college player. I still do. Wojo probably does too, that's why he's pushing him.

But, right now, JJJ's not very good in games, and according to his coach, he's not very good in practice.

That's it. I don't think we have travel very far for an explanation.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either

No, that's exactly want you were trying to say.  After it was shown that Derrick and Carlino were performing better than JJJ, you changed the argument to be "Duane is awful, why does he get a longer leash?" as some sort of reason that JJJ should play despite not practicing well.  When it is shown that JJJ has played more poorly than Duane you claim that wasn't your point.  Now your point is "JJJ will be good".

OK

[MU82]

Was much easier to make a case for anybody over Derrick last season than for JJJ over anybody this season.

I stuck up for JJJ earlier in the season, but he has been quite awful lately and, apparently practices like crap, too. Wojo, meanwhile, has given me zero reason to doubt his sincerity.

I know, I know, I'm such a slurper.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Fair question...and I'd ask the same back to you: Is it ever a coaches fault, or is it always the players?  You and many of the others I consistently disagreed with last year and this year generally always take the view that it is the players fault (other than Derrick's of course)?

With regard to the last two seasons, I call it the way I see it.  I've seen highly unproductive veterans NOT get benched for poor and awful play ON the floor, while seeing more talented, albeit younger players nailed to the bench for not apparently performing well enough in practice.

Personally my view on last year and this year is that you play the younger, more talented guys, who are the future of the program - let them get a lot of game experience, take their lumps - and as a coach give the player actual game data to say, "Look, based on your play in games, this is where we need to improve."  (You make that conclusion once the veterans are consistently proving they aren't a winning formula - as was the case last year..and will be again this year.)  I've said many times when a player is looking over their shoulder at the bench if they make a mistake, they play tight, play under pressure, and that does NOT lead to their best performance.  

After working with athletes and coaches at four different universities I have found the 99% of players who are benched deserve it, whether it be because they didn't do what they need to do to get onto the court or because they aren't very good. In fact, in my experience, it is 100%. But I assume that there are cases that have occurred at other schools that go the other way.

Now, I have seen coaches who bench a kid and then fail on the communication and follow up. The fault there ends up being closer to 50/50....coach is still in the right usually, but I have seen coaches who are poor communicators and kids get frustrated because they don't know why they were benched or what they need to do to get better.

In college basketball, you never play for the future. At least not in the way you are suggesting. You don't play the younger guys, who aren't as good now, just because they will be there in the next season. You play the players who give you the best chance of wining the game right in front of you...unless they don't earn the time in practice. Playing time in this season does not guarantee success in the following season. But playing inferior players does guarantee failure in the current season.

I bought your "veterans with longer leashes" and "benching the young talent" argument to a point last season. Derrick clearly had a longer leash than Dawson. I would argue that its because Derrick is better than Dawson was, but that's not the point. I really don't see it this season. I'm not sure what you see in JjJ but the kid has not be good. I love when he gets steals but what happens more often is he lunges for a steal, misses, and ends up near the half court line while the other team gets an open shot or easy drive. JjJ is our 2nd or 3rd worst player, he deserves the bench. Duane did struggle for a long time, but he was pulled too. He averaged about 22 minutes per game during the middle and end of his slump. Carlino had an awful shooting game against Depaul. The next game, Wojo pulled Carlino after every missed three. If anything, JjJ had too long of a leash before the DNP against X.

I know you are frustrated that we are losing. I know its tempting to look and say "we have a former top 40 kid on the bench, if we play him, the season will be saved." But wishing it doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this season is improved play from every member of time. They need to become more than they currently are. Because the skill they have now is not good enough, no matter who you put on the floor.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The Packer's collapse against Seattle?   Derrick's fault.

I used to support him. But not that I know this...GET ME THAT SOB'S HEAD!

[Texas Western]

After working with athletes and coaches at four different universities I have found the 99% of players who are benched deserve it, whether it be because they didn't do what they need to do to get onto the court or because they aren't very good. In fact, in my experience, it is 100%. But I assume that there are cases that have occurred at other schools that go the other way.

Now, I have seen coaches who bench a kid and then fail on the communication and follow up. The fault there ends up being closer to 50/50....coach is still in the right usually, but I have seen coaches who are poor communicators and kids get frustrated because they don't know why they were benched or what they need to do to get better.

In college basketball, you never play for the future. At least not in the way you are suggesting. You don't play the younger guys, who aren't as good now, just because they will be there in the next season. You play the players who give you the best chance of wining the game right in front of you...unless they don't earn the time in practice. Playing time in this season does not guarantee success in the following season. But playing inferior players does guarantee failure in the current season.

I bought your "veterans with longer leashes" and "benching the young talent" argument to a point last season. Derrick clearly had a longer leash than Dawson. I would argue that its because Derrick is better than Dawson was, but that's not the point. I really don't see it this season. I'm not sure what you see in JjJ but the kid has not be good. I love when he gets steals but what happens more often is he lunges for a steal, misses, and ends up near the half court line while the other team gets an open shot or easy drive. JjJ is our 2nd or 3rd worst player, he deserves the bench. Duane did struggle for a long time, but he was pulled too. He averaged about 22 minutes per game during the middle and end of his slump. Carlino had an awful shooting game against Depaul. The next game, Wojo pulled Carlino after every missed three. If anything, JjJ had too long of a leash before the DNP against X.

I know you are frustrated that we are losing. I know its tempting to look and say "we have a former top 40 kid on the bench, if we play him, the season will be saved." But wishing it doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this season is improved play from every member of time. They need to become more than they currently are. Because the skill they have now is not good enough, no matter who you put on the floor.

I agree with the general point of view you are offering in this post. My issue is that JJJ has demonstrated on numerous occasions in different ways that he has the game to produce big and contribute to winning . Look to our illustrious STOG he has it twice and many people supported him in other games. We all know that scoopers are sage lol. So when a kid has this ability I tend to put him into the 50 50 paradigm you are outlining above. I think we have a cool hand Luke type scenario with a failure to communicate to this kid. Which of course ends in JJJ being in jail.

[NersEllenson]

No, that's exactly want you were trying to say.  After it was shown that Derrick and Carlino were performing better than JJJ, you changed the argument to be "Duane is awful, why does he get a longer leash?" as some sort of reason that JJJ should play despite not practicing well.  When it is shown that JJJ has played more poorly than Duane you claim that wasn't your point.  Now your point is "JJJ will be good".

OK

My original post said arguably the most talented guard.  Nobody doubts Carlino isn't worthy of his minutes.  He's a 5th year senior - and he deserves his minutes.  I'm avoiding any commentary on Derrick as best I can, yet don't think anyone would argue JJJ isn't more talented.  I've said in multiple posts Duane hasn't been very good over the last 6 weeks, yet has been getting a lot more rope.

Knock yourself out comparing Duane and JJJ side by side.  It's about even.  JJJ assists at a higher rate, steals at a higher rate, rebounds at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, fouls less, has a better overall FG%, and averages exactly 0.7 less points per 40 than Duane.


http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=duane-wilson

[NersEllenson]

After working with athletes and coaches at four different universities I have found the 99% of players who are benched deserve it, whether it be because they didn't do what they need to do to get onto the court or because they aren't very good. In fact, in my experience, it is 100%. But I assume that there are cases that have occurred at other schools that go the other way.

Now, I have seen coaches who bench a kid and then fail on the communication and follow up. The fault there ends up being closer to 50/50....coach is still in the right usually, but I have seen coaches who are poor communicators and kids get frustrated because they don't know why they were benched or what they need to do to get better.

In college basketball, you never play for the future. At least not in the way you are suggesting. You don't play the younger guys, who aren't as good now, just because they will be there in the next season. You play the players who give you the best chance of wining the game right in front of you...unless they don't earn the time in practice. Playing time in this season does not guarantee success in the following season. But playing inferior players does guarantee failure in the current season.

I bought your "veterans with longer leashes" and "benching the young talent" argument to a point last season. Derrick clearly had a longer leash than Dawson. I would argue that its because Derrick is better than Dawson was, but that's not the point. I really don't see it this season. I'm not sure what you see in JjJ but the kid has not be good. I love when he gets steals but what happens more often is he lunges for a steal, misses, and ends up near the half court line while the other team gets an open shot or easy drive. JjJ is our 2nd or 3rd worst player, he deserves the bench. Duane did struggle for a long time, but he was pulled too. He averaged about 22 minutes per game during the middle and end of his slump. Carlino had an awful shooting game against Depaul. The next game, Wojo pulled Carlino after every missed three. If anything, JjJ had too long of a leash before the DNP against X.

I know you are frustrated that we are losing. I know its tempting to look and say "we have a former top 40 kid on the bench, if we play him, the season will be saved." But wishing it doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this season is improved play from every member of time. They need to become more than they currently are. Because the skill they have now is not good enough, no matter who you put on the floor.

Nice points.  So essentially, in your world, the coach is always right.

[mu03eng]

Meme watch: Extended Leash

Noted

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

So because the kid is a free spirit, Wojo should give him more playing time....even though his numbers on the court (and apparently in practice) don't justify it?

I really hope this isn't a playing time issue for JjJ, because if it is, he's not showing much self awareness. He is a backup guard. I don't think anyone here would try to say anything different. Based on the way he's played on the court, he should either by or first or second guy off the bench. Despite him being a backup, he has gotten a crap ton of minutes. Here are the minutes from the seven games before the Creighton game:

ASU: 32 minutes
Alabama A&M: 22
North Dakota: 29
Morgan State: 26
Depaul: 17
Providence: 25
Georgetown 20

So 7 straight games of ample playing time. Then his minutes get cut to 12 in the Creighton game. Still a decent amount of time for a backup. Especially considering that he went 1-3 from the field, committed 3 turnovers, and had at least 2 major defensive lapses that I can remember off the top of my head.

If getting his minutes cut to 12, for one game, after 7 straight of ample minutes, in a game where he struggled mightily, after a game where he also struggled (2-7 shooting, 0-3 3P), was enough to set him pouting about playing time, that is a poor attitude and cancerous to the team.

Personally, I don't think JjJ is that type of kid. I think some of us here are frustrated by losing. We see a kid on the bench who is not living up to the his HS ranking. We can't admit that maybe the kid isn't as good as his high school ranking suggested or needs more time to get there, because that would mean that the season is lost and we will keep on losing. Instead, we create a story in which the coach is misusing or mistreating a player and the player is justifiably upset and ergo isn't playing up to his potential. We embrace this story because it allows to hope that the coach will see the error of his ways and we will start winning again.

This story is sad and kind of pathetic. It's not fair to Wojo because it implies that he is either bad at his job or is a bad person. It's not fair to JjJ because it implies that he isn't self aware, is pouty, and will quit at the first sign of adversity. It's not fair to the other players because it shows a lack of appreciation for what they have accomplished on the court.

JjJ had a bad week. That's all we as fans know. I trust that a guy who is as relationship focused as Wojo will help him through it. Don't make up stories about things that you don't know it. It shows a lack of respect to a group of men that are working their bums off to represent our alma mater.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Nice points.  So essentially, in your world, the coach is always right.

What I am saying is that coach's don't send kids to bench without reason and those reasons are usually justified. I do think a lot of coaches are bad at the follow up and communicating why a player is being benched. I don't think that is the case in this situation.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So when a kid has this ability I tend to put him into the 50 50 paradigm you are outlining above. I think we have a cool hand Luke type scenario with a failure to communicate to this kid. Which of course ends in JJJ being in jail.

What makes you think this? Wojo has stressed player relationships and open communication from day 1. He talked Steve and JjJ down from the brink of transfer. I have no inside info on this situation, but have seen nothing to suggest that Wojo is not communicating with JjJ.

JjJ had seven straight games of 17 minutes or more. In the last one, against Georgetown, he struggled. 2-7 from the field and 0-3 from 3. Combine that with his performance against Creighton and I think he was lucky to get 12 minutes in that game.

If we get another DNP in a row from JjJ, then I will start to be concerned. I don't think 1 DNP for a week of bad practice is much to be worried about. Happens all the time to bench players.

[GGGG]

This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

Oh great.  Another theory.  Wojo bases his playing decisions on whether or not a player is "serious minded" or happy-go-lucky.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

My original post said arguably the most talented guard.  Nobody doubts Carlino isn't worthy of his minutes.  He's a 5th year senior - and he deserves his minutes.  I'm avoiding any commentary on Derrick as best I can, yet don't think anyone would argue JJJ isn't more talented.  I've said in multiple posts Duane hasn't been very good over the last 6 weeks, yet has been getting a lot more rope.

Knock yourself out comparing Duane and JJJ side by side.  It's about even.  JJJ assists at a higher rate, steals at a higher rate, rebounds at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, fouls less, has a better overall FG%, and averages exactly 0.7 less points per 40 than Duane.


http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=duane-wilson

If you want to say Duane is the same as JJJ, fine. But, it seems likely that Duane is working harder in practice, and therefore is earning a little more PT.

When JJJ starts performing in practice, and the results translate to the court, he'll likely get more minutes. Derrick Wilson has some limitations, and it would be nice to cut his minutes back because JJJ is playing at a high level.

[bilsu]

Unfortunately, Neary was not good in a zone and MU played a lot of zone that season since the team was not that quick.  When MU went to the zone in the championship game, out went Neary.  Al finally figured that out.

I do not think Al finally figured that out. He knew that all the time. He was trying to make Toone play up to his ability. Al was a street fighter and he was not happy with Toone wanting to play on the outside instead of mixing it up underneath. I think one of the problems Toone had was that he was so naturally gifted that he never had to work hard. Somewhat the same problem Jamil Wilson had, but Wilson was not near as talented as Toone. Coaches play players for a reason. We may not understand or like the reason, but coaches play or not play players for a reason. Al, Buzz and Wojo were all scrappers and I can see them being upset with anything less than that out of a player.

[bilsu]

I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either..if you want, go back to the Wisconsin game as a starting point.  

JJJ will be a good college player - whether at MU or elsewhere.  

Your shot might not be falling, but if you are doing what the coach wants you will not get in trouble as fast as a player who is not doing what the coach wants.

[brandx]

I do not think Al finally figured that out. He knew that all the time. He was trying to make Toone play up to his ability. Al was a street fighter and he was not happy with Toone wanting to play on the outside instead of mixing it up underneath. I think one of the problems Toone had was that he was so naturally gifted that he never had to work hard.

You are right. Al was very frustrated with the way Toone played and how hard he worked. It had nothing to do with talent

[Lennys Tap]

I do not think Al finally figured that out. He knew that all the time. He was trying to make Toone play up to his ability. Al was a street fighter and he was not happy with Toone wanting to play on the outside instead of mixing it up underneath. I think one of the problems Toone had was that he was so naturally gifted that he never had to work hard. Somewhat the same problem Jamil Wilson had, but Wilson was not near as talented as Toone. Coaches play players for a reason. We may not understand or like the reason, but coaches play or not play players for a reason. Al, Buzz and Wojo were all scrappers and I can see them being upset with anything less than that out of a player.

+1

[NersEllenson]

If you want to say Duane is the same as JJJ, fine. But, it seems likely that Duane is working harder in practice, and therefore is earning a little more PT.

When JJJ starts performing in practice, and the results translate to the court, he'll likely get more minutes. Derrick Wilson has some limitations, and it would be nice to cut his minutes back because JJJ is playing at a high level.

Yes, when you look at Duane and JJJ side by side - you realize for the season, their body of work is quite similar.  

As Texas Western said:  JJJ is a free spirit, happy go lucky type.  Duane is a more buttoned down, serious type.  Much like Wojo.  Wojo is a corporate type.  Deonte Burton?  Also a fairly laid back kid.  Dawson?  Again, a more laid back type of personality.  This has been my point about Wojo - he was a fire and brimstone, gritty, lunch pail type of guy - can he adapt to those players who aren't of the same ilk as him?  There are many guys who have a more serene and cerebral type of approach to the game that are very good - you don't have to be a floor slapping, manic, uber intense player to be good (although for Wojo that is what it required of him to be able to play at the high major level as he didn't have the talent to get by on anything other than sheer grit and determination.)  Look how D-Wade played the game.  Very mellow.  Paul George.  Jimmy Butler.

People can say Wojo dealt with all kinds of personality types at Duke, elite talent etc. - all true - yet he was NOT the head coach, nor did he make playing time decisions, as he does now.

Having said all of this, I believe Wojo can and likely will be a very good coach at MU.  I don't doubt his X and O's knowledge at all.  Recruited a good first class.  Just slightly concerned with how he'll coach guys not of the same ilk as him.  Now, when you recruit the kids yourself, you identified traits within those players that you liked - and therefore they fit your mold.  Wojo is having to coach guys he didn't recruit - other than Sandy.