Ferguson Decision to be released @ 8pm - same time as MU game.

[Pakuni]

Brown was stoned according to the toxicology report.

This isn't true. The tox found traces of marijuana in his system. Marijuana stays in your system for about 30 days after use, so there's no way of know whether he was stoned, and it's certainly not something that was determined by the autopsy.

As for the rest, ultimately it comes down to a (supposedly) trained, experienced law enforcement officer getting into a situation where a verbal disagreement over where someone was walking escalated into a fatal shooting. That should never happened, and it wouldn't have happened with better policing.
We can all agree or disagree over whether the shooting was justified. But only a fool would think it was unavoidable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I know that if a guy walking in the street turns into a physical struggle that ends with someone dead from multiple gunshot wounds, a truly horrendous job of policing has taken place.
Incompetence isn't strong enough of a word to describe Wilson's handling of the situation.

Oh, you do?  Right.   Because it couldn't possibly be that the cop was charged at, that the perp was on drugs, that the perp just committed a robbery, that the perp slammed the door on the cop and went for his gun, that the perp failed to ignore the cop's instructions, and the perp then put his head down and charged the cop.

Yup....."a truly horrendous job of policing has taken place".  Please God, in my next life make me a liberal.  Please. Please. Please.  I want to live in Neverland. 

[Pakuni]

Here is where I struggle with this, and this goes to Sultan's dialogue post as well, what does the discussion and/or solution look like that solves this?  Can we start from the basis of life isn't fair, and accept that as a universal truth?  If we assume that is true, how do we correct a society that has clearly, whether intentionally or accidentally or both, created additional unfairness for certain groups?

This is something I'm trying to articulate in my head so it's probably going to come out wrong and I'll get jumped on (part of the overall issue, but I digress).  Historically, African-Americans have been subjected to institutionalized discrimination that added to the general unfairness of life, essentially stunting societal growth for that group.  So we get to 2014 where I feel that the majority of institutional bias has been removed, however that anchor from years past has gone uncorrected.  How do you correct for that historical anchor without "overcorrecting"?  

That's often the argument you get, random white person "I was born poor, worked 7 jobs and got an education and succeeded, why can't they"?  How do you allow for the randomness of life, while correcting for the wrongs that have been done historically that made things more unfair?  To your point, what reason does a minority group have to trust a system if through generations past that system was intentionally unfair?  Let's assume you 100% remove issues within the system, there are generations condition to not trust it....how do you restore that trust?  That's the struggle I see, how do we come together and say, we've created fair system X and here is how we will get everyone to believe in the system?

Great questions, to which I wish I had the answers.
I don't think it's enough to say "life's not fair." It's true, of course, but it's more "not fair" if you're black or poor or female or born in the wrong community, etc. And that lack of "not fairness" isn't merely the result of life's randomness.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And you're a racist.

There it is.  When you can't win an argument, throw that stuff out.  Congratulations.  You have hit rock bottom

[GGGG]

There it is.  When you can't win an argument, throw that stuff out.  Congratulations.  You have hit rock bottom

Well you should know it well.

[Henry Sugar]

And you're a racist.

Chicos isn't a racist. He just consistently defends the white guy and demonizes the minority.

Wait, I'm sure some of Chicos' best friends are black.

Wait, the problem for Chicos is people claiming racism instead of actual racism. Because then we can't have a real discussion.

Wait, it's really about hypocrisy. LOL LOL LOL.

Wait, I'm sure there's something. right?

[Golden Avalanche]

Oh, you do?  Right.   Because it couldn't possibly be that the cop was charged at, that the perp was on drugs, that the perp just committed a robbery, that the perp slammed the door on the cop and went for his gun, that the perp failed to ignore the cop's instructions, and the perp then put his head down and charged the cop.

Yup....."a truly horrendous job of policing has taken place".  Please God, in my next life make me a liberal.  Please. Please. Please.  I want to live in Neverland. 

I'm not a Liberal and yet I still consider the death of Brown to be a fairly poor piece of policing by the Ferguson officer.

Is that allowed? Or is that mutually exclusive?

[MerrittsMustache]

One could say the same for your comment ... and every other comment then, right?
Read wilson's grand jury testimony. Even by his own account - which I'm 100 percent sure he wouldn't have ever shaded in his favor - a verbal disagreement over whether these guys should have been using the sidewalk turned into a life-or-death struggle.
Do you seriously believe allowing a minor verbal dispute over where someone is walking to escalate into a fatal shooting is an example of sterling - or even acceptable - police work?

One could spin it the other way as well.

Do you seriously believe allowing a minor verbal dispute over where you are walking to escalate to the point where you assault a police officer and try to take his gun?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here is where I struggle with this, and this goes to Sultan's dialogue post as well, what does the discussion and/or solution look like that solves this?  Can we start from the basis of life isn't fair, and accept that as a universal truth?  If we assume that is true, how do we correct a society that has clearly, whether intentionally or accidentally or both, created additional unfairness for certain groups?

There is no solution because too many people are vested in not wanting it to happen.  It is a cottage industry, it allows certain people to get votes by throwing out Auganhere's line of thinking whenever they can.  It allows certain people to shakedown companies.  It allows others to justify actions and make a ton of money from it...be it from news ratings or whatever else you want to conjur up. Way too many people milk the racist card to the nth degree and they aren't stopping anytime soon.  Their livlihoods depend on it.  Besides, when you can't win a policy argument, a resource allocation argument or what have you, it is the fallback position.  It has been played more the last 6 years than the previous 20 in my opinion.  Don't like the POTUS policies because of the policies themselves....of course not....it is because of race (it couldn't possibly be because of the policies).   

The solution starts when you remove the people from both sides that don't want a solution, and the list is easy to identify and there are people on both sides of it.....and a daunting media in the "middle" that needs to be removed from the process as well since they are incapable of reporting rather than manipulating and flat out lying in some cases.

[GGGG]

There is no solution because too many people are vested in not wanting it to happen.  It is a cottage industry, it allows certain people to get votes by throwing out Auganhere's line of thinking whenever they can.  It allows certain people to shakedown companies.  It allows others to justify actions and make a ton of money from it...be it from news ratings or whatever else you want to conjur up. Way too many people milk the racist card to the nth degree and they aren't stopping anytime soon.  Their livlihoods depend on it.  Besides, when you can't win a policy argument, a resource allocation argument or what have you, it is the fallback position.  It has been played more the last 6 years than the previous 20 in my opinion.  Don't like the POTUS policies because of the policies themselves....of course not....it is because of race (it couldn't possibly be because of the policies).   

The solution starts when you remove the people from both sides that don't want a solution, and the list is easy to identify and there are people on both sides of it.....and a daunting media in the "middle" that needs to be removed from the process as well since they are incapable of reporting rather than manipulating and flat out lying in some cases.

You make a lot of ironic posts, but even this broke my irony meter.

You cast others as essentially going through life playing the victim, but you are the King of Victimization. 

[Pakuni]

Oh, you do?  Right.   Because it couldn't possibly be that the cop was charged at, that the perp was on drugs, that the perp just committed a robbery, that the perp slammed the door on the cop and went for his gun, that the perp failed to ignore the cop's instructions, and the perp then put his head down and charged the cop.

Yup....."a truly horrendous job of policing has taken place".  Please God, in my next life make me a liberal.  Please. Please. Please.  I want to live in Neverland.  

Great, intelligent, well-reasoned response, Chico's.
Your thoughtful commentary is, as always, appreciated.

Some questions for you, that I hope you can answer without using the word liberal, referring to Obama or any other Fox News talking points.

1. If Officer Wilson believed these were dangerous people - so much so that he called for backup - why did he then proceed to approach them on his own, before his backup arrived?
2. If this was a dangerous situation as Wilson says he believed it was, why after the initial confrontation, did he throw his car into reverse and angle it in such a manner so as to prevent these dangerous people from continuing on their way, essentially initiating a second confrontation, without the benefit of his backup?
3. Why, after shooting Brown once during a struggle in which he believed he could have been killed, did Wilson then get out of his vehicle and chase after this crazed maniac who was now fleeing from him, instead of waiting for his backup?

[Pakuni]

One could spin it the other way as well.

Do you seriously believe allowing a minor verbal dispute over where you are walking to escalate to the point where you assault a police officer and try to take his gun?

I guess I just have a higher expectations for a supposedly trained, veteran police officer for how one acts in such situations than I do for a teenager.
And, I guess, I'm putting more of the onus for diffusing the situation and dealing with it in a professional manner on the supposedly trained, veteran police officer than the 18-year-old kid.

[brandx]

Also, you are a total scum bag.  This isn't about me; or you (sorry not everything is about you).  People like you are what is wrong with the world.  

I am a nonviolent person.  The people acting like idiots in the streets of Ferguson are disgusting.  For you to lump me in with a group of people like that who live thousands of miles away speaks to your character.  You're a scum bag loser that creates divides here, and what is worse, you get a kick out of it.  Really, get over yourself.

I don't have an emperor.  Neither do you.  

His comment to you was completely over the line. He is a vile human being.

[brandx]

Prosecutor McCulloch said the grand jury "gave up their lives" while deliberating.

Does it get any more insensitive than that?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Policing isn't about intimidation.  It's about repairing strained relationships and establishing new bonds with people in the community.  Once people get to know the police force and the police force begins to know those people in the "bad" areas, trust is earned on both sides, and respect develops on both ends.

Ultimately, this was a systematic failure by the Ferguson police department, because its culture dictated fear rather than openness.  This lack of insight into the issue has scarred Michael Brown's family, the police officer, and the community of Ferguson.  Had they actually gotten out of their police cars and developed relationships, this may have never happened.  

This is worth repeating.

For me, this isn't necessarily about Michael Brown, but about our current system and approach to police work.

I know cops spend hours and hours of training on combat and weapons. Maybe some of that time should be spent on community training. The best police work is done well before these types of incidents occur. We police our citizens by reacting to them. Maybe we should spend more time working WITH them.

I don't know the exact tactics, but the strategy shouldn't be to walk around and "bust" people, but rather be in the community and help keep people safe. Let's start with that as a goal, and then figure out the tactics.

[keefe]

If they are subjugated, Ferguson did it to themselves. I guess they never learned that we are a government of the people, by the people and for the people in school. They have the votes to determine what kind of government they want but did not vote for one that reflects their community. Hopefully this will change.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/06/politics/missouri-elections-ferguson-voter-turnout/

I think the American record on Black voting rights speaks for itself.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos isn't a racist. He just consistently defends the white guy and demonizes the minority.

Wait, I'm sure some of Chicos' best friends are black.

Wait, the problem for Chicos is people claiming racism instead of actual racism. Because then we can't have a real discussion.

Wait, it's really about hypocrisy. LOL LOL LOL.

Wait, I'm sure there's something. right?

I do?  Interesting.  I guess when I say I want Dr. Carson to run for POTUS or Condi Rice as my top two picks....never mind.  I'll defend whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc.  Doesn't matter to me, I'm going to defend what I believe is right.  When the African American cop shot the idiot in Utah a few months ago, whom did I support on this board?  Oh, that's right...the African American cop...because he acted properly. 

I do have a number of African American friends, spend vacations with them in Hawaii, Florida, etc.  It's funny, we've become so divided as a society that you can't even say that because people throw out that wonderfully lovely line "he has black friends".  Pretty sad, but that's fine...it's how the left argues. 

[Coleman]

I do have a number of African American friends, spend vacations with them in Hawaii, Florida, etc.

Haha.

Structural racism in the United States is so much more nuanced than being able to say whether you have black friends or support an African American for President, but whatever. If this is what qualifies for you as discussion on race, I'll just sit back and enjoy it.

[MerrittsMustache]

Great, intelligent, well-reasoned response, Chico's.
Your thoughtful commentary is, as always, appreciated.

Some questions for you, that I hope you can answer without using the word liberal, referring to Obama or any other Fox News talking points.

1. If Officer Wilson believed these were dangerous people - so much so that he called for backup - why did he then proceed to approach them on his own, before his backup arrived?
2. If this was a dangerous situation as Wilson says he believed it was, why after the initial confrontation, did he throw his car into reverse and angle it in such a manner so as to prevent these dangerous people from continuing on their way, essentially initiating a second confrontation, without the benefit of his backup?
3. Why, after shooting Brown once during a struggle in which he believed he could have been killed, did Wilson then get out of his vehicle and chase after this crazed maniac who was now fleeing from him, instead of waiting for his backup?

I guess I just have a higher expectations for a supposedly trained, veteran police officer for how one acts in such situations than I do for a teenager.
And, I guess, I'm putting more of the onus for diffusing the situation and dealing with it in a professional manner on the supposedly trained, veteran police officer than the 18-year-old kid.

You've clearly made up your mind already and have included several of your own "facts" while ignoring some actual facts of the case. Attempting to rationalize with you any further on this topic is pointless.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving, everyone!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Great, intelligent, well-reasoned response, Chico's.
Your thoughtful commentary is, as always, appreciated.

Some questions for you, that I hope you can answer without using the word liberal, referring to Obama or any other Fox News talking points.

1. If Officer Wilson believed these were dangerous people - so much so that he called for backup - why did he then proceed to approach them on his own, before his backup arrived?
2. If this was a dangerous situation as Wilson says he believed it was, why after the initial confrontation, did he throw his car into reverse and angle it in such a manner so as to prevent these dangerous people from continuing on their way, essentially initiating a second confrontation, without the benefit of his backup?
3. Why, after shooting Brown once during a struggle in which he believed he could have been killed, did Wilson then get out of his vehicle and chase after this crazed maniac who was now fleeing from him, instead of waiting for his backup?

I don't have to answer them, 12 grand jury members who went through 60+ witnesses, thousands of documents, 25 days of deliberations and talking through the materials made those deductions.  I wasn't there to see or hear the evidence, neither were you.

Now, if you want me to hedge a guess or two, I'm happy to. 

1) I would imagine that since he believed that they were possible perps in the robbery, if you wait until backup arrives, they might not be around any longer.  Funny, the meme early on is he didn't know they might be involved in the robbery, because the crack staff press reported that.  Turns out, that was false.

2) I don't know, but I suspect when things happen quickly in the real world they aren't always thought out in same fashion as some MU Scooper gets to analyze them 5 months later when the person doing the action reacts in seconds.

3) That one is simple, read the documents released last night.  The answer is right there for you.

[Pakuni]

You've clearly made up your mind already and have included several of your own "facts" while ignoring some actual facts of the case. Attempting to rationalize with you any further on this topic is pointless.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving, everyone!

Which facts have I made up?
If you choose to leave the discussion because you can't answer the questions I'm asking, that's fine. But don't be so cowardly as to accuse me of lying without at least telling us what I'm lying about.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not a Liberal and yet I still consider the death of Brown to be a fairly poor piece of policing by the Ferguson officer.

Is that allowed? Or is that mutually exclusive?

Why?  Policing is a two way street.  We have a good friend of ours that is on the Long Beach anti-gang task force.  He's Hispanic (oh no...I'm racist, how could we possibly have a Hispanic friend) and has to mix it up on his shift all the time.  Great guy, and he agrees that building relationships is key in the community and part of the proper policing.  No one is arguing this.  On the other hand, it takes two to tango and sometimes doing everything you can the other guy(s) don't particularly care and are going to do something that could put the officer or someone else in harm's way.  That's the reality of the world. 

I'd like to know specifically how this was bad policing based on BROWN'S actions.  Please, you and Pakuni address the other side of the dance party, not just the officer.  The officer, according to the investigations, acted properly, within the law and within the training he was given.....by the way.  Sometimes, the other guy doesn't act appropriately, be it on drugs or because he just committed a crime, and it resorts to these kinds of things.

But what I think would be really cool is to put a graph up that shows the number of police killings by country.  It's like internet access in S. Korea and people asking why it isn't the same in the US.  Couldn't possible be because of the sizes of the country in geography and population....nah. 

People are funny....or as Gruber would say....stupid.

[Aughnanure]

I do?  Interesting.  I guess when I say I want Dr. Carson to run for POTUS or Condi Rice as my top two picks....never mind.  I'll defend whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc.  Doesn't matter to me, I'm going to defend what I believe is right.  When the African American cop shot the idiot in Utah a few months ago, whom did I support on this board?  Oh, that's right...the African American cop...because he acted properly. 

I do have a number of African American friends, spend vacations with them in Hawaii, Florida, etc.  It's funny, we've become so divided as a society that you can't even say that because people throw out that wonderfully lovely line "he has black friends".  Pretty sad, but that's fine...it's how the left argues. 

Wow, you just bought that hook, line, and sinker. I mean, you're not even making it hard.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I guess I just have a higher expectations for a supposedly trained, veteran police officer for how one acts in such situations than I do for a teenager.
And, I guess, I'm putting more of the onus for diffusing the situation and dealing with it in a professional manner on the supposedly trained, veteran police officer than the 18-year-old kid.

How do you know that didn't happen but the kid, as the witnesses stated, went after the cop.  What exactly would you like him to do....the Jedi Mind Trick?  Some of you are unreal.

[Pakuni]

I don't have to answer them, 12 grand jury members who went through 60+ witnesses, thousands of documents, 25 days of deliberations and talking through the materials made those deductions.  I wasn't there to see or hear the evidence, neither were you.

The grand jury wasn't impaneled to investigate whether Darren Wilson is a bad cop.
My questions are based entirely off the transcript of Wilson's testimony.

Now, if you want me to hedge a guess or two, I'm happy to. 

1) I would imagine that since he believed that they were possible perps in the robbery, if you wait until backup arrives, they might not be around any longer.   

This makes no sense, and contradicts his own testimony. He could have continued to follow them, pursue them, keep an eye on them, etc., without losing their location. He instead chose to approach them.

2) I don't know, but I suspect when things happen quickly in the real world they aren't always thought out in same fashion as some MU Scooper gets to analyze them 5 months later when the person doing the action reacts in seconds.

It's obvious you haven't read Wilson's testimony.

3) That one is simple, read the documents released last night.  The answer is right there for you.

I have read the documents. And it's those documents - namely Wilson's own account - that lead me to the conclusion he acted horribly.