Jajuan J breakout

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

What you don't acknowledge is how that playing time can affect a player's confidence thus he may not get better skill wise in those 300 minutes but he will get out of his head able to do things freely without fear of getting benched.

How much is that worth?

[Galway Eagle]

How much is that worth?

I'd say a considerable amount in a sport like basketball. I mean I don't pretend to have played at a high level or anything but it would seem that confidence (like in any sport) is huge and if you lose that when you're playing then you won't perform to your abilities.  Personally that's my theory why a lot of the highly ranked players never did great in games despite their practice praise.

[GGGG]

I'd say a considerable amount in a sport like basketball. I mean I don't pretend to have played at a high level or anything but it would seem that confidence (like in any sport) is huge and if you lose that when you're playing then you won't perform to your abilities.  Personally that's my theory why a lot of the highly ranked players never did great in games despite their practice praise.

So can the opposite work as well?  If you put someone out there that isn't ready for gametime, can it work to take away their confidence?

[Lennys Tap]

I think it's worthwhile criticizing Buzz's approach to playing freshmen most years, and in particular, last year.

There are almost no coaches that play freshmen less than Buzz. Most years, it worked. Last year, it didn't.

I don't know if any of us have an idea of what to expect from JJJ this year.

I think you are dead on. Buzz wasn't quick to trust freshmen, and the wisdom of that can certainly be debated, especially in a down year.

And we don't know what to expect this year from JJJ. Or Dawson. Or most of the others. Couple of things for sure, though. If JJJ isn't a star it won't be because he was overrated it will be because Buzz ruined him. And if Wojo relegates Dawson to the end of the bench as the least played guard on the roster some people here will still insist he could have saved our season as a freshman last year.

[Lennys Tap]

So can the opposite work as well?  If you put someone out there that isn't ready for gametime, can it work to take away their confidence?

Yeah, remember Brandon Bell?

[GGGG]

And we don't know what to expect this year from JJJ. Or Dawson. Or most of the others. Couple of things for sure, though. If JJJ isn't a star it won't be because he was overrated it will be because Buzz ruined him. And if Wojo relegates Dawson to the end of the bench as the least played guard on the roster some people here will still insist he could have saved our season as a freshman last year.

Oh I have already thoroughly expected that with both JJJ and Dawson.

[Galway Eagle]

So can the opposite work as well?  If you put someone out there that isn't ready for gametime, can it work to take away their confidence?

Like putting a solid defender/role player as the starting point guard playing insane minutes? Yes Id say so.  

[GGGG]

Like putting a solid defender/role player as the starting point guard playing insane minutes? Yes Id say so. 

I guess this means you are on record now saying Derrick Wilson is a skilled basketball player who was simply lacking in confidence.

I'll note for the record.

[NersEllenson]

We've had this discussion already. I know where you stand. You know where I stand. We don't need to relive it.

My initial post in this thread was simply about the idea that "game minutes" automatically increase improvement. I don't believe that is the case.

Sugar makes an interesting critique about Buzz's track record, but I think that's a big picture perspective, not a direct critique of (insert player) should play instead of (insert player).

True....and Jake and Derrick were perfect examples of that last season.  Most of us just would have liked to have seen what the freshman could have done if given a fair opportunity - 25+ minutes a game of largely uninterrupted playing time.  Only Derrick and Jake last season were given the luxury of getting into a flow of consistent minutes.  You cannot make judgments on a player based on 2-3 minute segments of playing time.

Lastly, as I've said before, there was a sequence last season where both Derrick and Dawson played with 9 or 10 different guys within a 3 minute span of game time - that is totally disjointed and ludicrous to think a team could function with any efficiency or effectiveness being coached in such a manic way.

[Aughnanure]

Reading.  Is.  Fundamental.  I didn't say they get worse. I said there was no evidence that they get better.

And really, what was it about JJJ that gave you the impression that he would have been just as good as Thomas?  He didn't really do much of anything.

I'm no willie supporter, but Buzz deserves considerable blame for why a former walk-on performed better than his top-ranked freshman and junior SG - playing a significant amount of minutes more than one should ever have to rely on a former walk-on.

Buzz, for me, gets a lot of blame for the lack of progress of our underclassman the final few years (whether that be lack of developing them in practice or not giving them enough live playing time), and honestly was never that impressive developing them outside of Blue.

EDIT: I'm not forgetting Gardner, but I just think he was the most natural ready freshman we've had in a while and I'm not sure I saw too much "improvement" after his sophomore year.

[Galway Eagle]

I guess this means you are on record now saying Derrick Wilson is a skilled basketball player who was simply lacking in confidence.

I'll note for the record.

Not at all what I said grow up and don't try twisting my words of saying a solid defender/role player somehow means that he's a skilled basketball player. He was a solid role player for a sweet 16 and elite 8, he's still a solid defender. nowhere did I use the words skilled basketball player.  Anyone could see the guy lacks the confidence to even shoot the ball or drive the ball though thus yes he lacks confidence and not having confidence isnt gonna do him any favors with improving.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Lastly, as I've said before, there was a sequence last season where both Derrick and Dawson played with 9 or 10 different guys within a 3 minute span of game time - that is totally disjointed and ludicrous to think a team could function with any efficiency or effectiveness being coached in such a manic way.

I don't necessarily disagree, but that's not new coaching style. Buzz always coached like that, and it worked before, and we all loved him for it.

[willie warrior]

Just when I was beginning to believe willie could add value.

Unlike Sultan, right?

[GGGG]

Not at all what I said grow up and don't try twisting my words of saying a solid defender/role player somehow means that he's a skilled basketball player. He was a solid role player for a sweet 16 and elite 8, he's still a solid defender. nowhere did I use the words skilled basketball player.  Anyone could see the guy lacks the confidence to even shoot the ball or drive the ball though thus yes he lacks confidence and not having confidence isnt gonna do him any favors with improving.

Dude please.

You used a thread where we were talking about a highly ranked basketball player and your idea that playing time would give him confidence.  And then you decided to bring Derrick into it for no real reason that I could tell.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'd say a considerable amount in a sport like basketball. I mean I don't pretend to have played at a high level or anything but it would seem that confidence (like in any sport) is huge and if you lose that when you're playing then you won't perform to your abilities.  Personally that's my theory why a lot of the highly ranked players never did great in games despite their practice praise.

I don't think you're wrong, but I guess it's hard for me to believe that 300min. of "confidence building" has a huge impact compared to a kid's 30,000+ min. of practice and development.  

Confidence is important. But, we're talking about 1% of a players yearly basketball development.

To put it into context: Wade sat out as a frosh, and was fantastic as a soph. and a junior. Could Wade have been even better if he played as a frosh? I guess he could have, but I'm not sure how much better it would have made him.

[Galway Eagle]

Dude please.

You used a thread where we were talking about a highly ranked basketball player and your idea that playing time would give him confidence.  And then you decided to bring Derrick into it for no real reason that I could tell.

I saw a comment talking about putting in someone who wasn't ready for showtime and I used derrick as an example as to why I think that was true does that help explain why I brought him up? Doesn't change that you did in fact attempt to childishly twist my words to some extremely different meaning than what I did say.

[Galway Eagle]

I don't think you're wrong, but I guess it's hard for me to believe that 300min. of "confidence building" has a huge impact compared to a kid's 30,000+ min. of practice and development.  

Confidence is important. But, we're talking about 1% of a players yearly basketball development.

To put it into context: Wade sat out as a frosh, and was fantastic as a soph. and a junior. Could Wade have been even better if he played as a frosh? I guess he could have, but I'm not sure how much better it would have made him.

True about Wade I guess for me it comes down to if we had made odarty B our guy instead would wades confidence have been shot down a bit and hampered his development? I mean it's a different situation because he was ineligible in my opinion. Overall I was just throwing out my theory I respect yours about practice because practice does make perfect but it just doesn't add up to me when Buzz was raving about JJJ in practice but it didn't translate to anything.

[NersEllenson]

I don't necessarily disagree, but that's not new coaching style. Buzz always coached like that, and it worked before, and we all loved him for it.

This simply is not true.  Buzz never was a maniacal with his subbing patterns in any of his previous 5 years as he was last year.  Buzz also never "lost" any of his previous teams, yet it is well known there were plenty of locker room issues with last year's team - and I don't think for one second those issues weren't the result of the players being beyond frustrated with their erratic roles.

Buzz did do some offense/defense subbing with Otule and Gardner historically - but that was very situational specific and player specific.  Buzz also would do "line changes" in non conference play, but never once conference play started would be sub 9 different guys into a game in a 3 minute stretch...at least not that I recall...and if he did historically...it was quite rare..and it didn't happen with near the frequency of what we saw last year.  Never in 30 years of playing/watching basketball closely had I ever seen coaching as bizarre as what we saw last year.

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz also never "lost" any of his previous teams, yet it is well known there were plenty of locker room issues with last year's team - and I don't think for one second those issues weren't the result of the players being beyond frustrated with their erratic roles.

Even giving you an unproven statement (that Buzz "lost" last year's team), wouldn't the most logical reason for that be our much worse record last year than in previous seasons? Why make up stuff ("erratic roles") and ignore the obvious? Do you always choose conspiracy or speculation over common sense?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This simply is not true.  Buzz never was a maniacal with his subbing patterns in any of his previous 5 years as he was last year.  Buzz also never "lost" any of his previous teams, yet it is well known there were plenty of locker room issues with last year's team - and I don't think for one second those issues weren't the result of the players being beyond frustrated with their erratic roles.

Buzz did do some offense/defense subbing with Otule and Gardner historically - but that was very situational specific and player specific.  Buzz also would do "line changes" in non conference play, but never once conference play started would be sub 9 different guys into a game in a 3 minute stretch...at least not that I recall...and if he did historically...it was quite rare..and it didn't happen with near the frequency of what we saw last year.  Never in 30 years of playing/watching basketball closely had I ever seen coaching as bizarre as what we saw last year.

I'm not saying he did EVERYTHING EXACTLY the same way last season, I'm just saying that in the grand scheme, it seemed like the "same ol Buzz" to me. When MU was winning, we were all applauding him for being "different". When they had a losing season, suddenly we think every move he made was terrible?

[tower912]

JJJ looked like a freshman.   He did well against OOC cupcakes, had a couple of bright spots, but never showed anything even when he did see the floor during the conference games.   His decision making, shot selection, and defense during those stretches did not merit more play.    The best case scenario is that he makes the leap that many do when they go from freshman to sophomores.    If he has gotten stronger, hustles and plays defense to Wojo's standards, and hits the occasional 3, he will see the floor.   And MU is certainly going to need him.  

[GGGG]

Even giving you an unproven statement (that Buzz "lost" last year's team), wouldn't the most logical reason for that be our much worse record last year than in previous seasons? Why make up stuff ("erratic roles") and ignore the obvious? Do you always choose conspiracy or speculation over common sense?

I'm not even certain it's proven that his substitution patterns were all that different.  Really you would have to go through the game logs from one year to the next to come up with a substitutions per game stat.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

True about Wade I guess for me it comes down to if we had made odarty B our guy instead would wades confidence have been shot down a bit and hampered his development? I mean it's a different situation because he was ineligible in my opinion. Overall I was just throwing out my theory I respect yours about practice because practice does make perfect but it just doesn't add up to me when Buzz was raving about JJJ in practice but it didn't translate to anything.

I understand your point, and I'm not saying playing time has NO EFFECT on a player. Certainly it does.

My point is just that we (fans) likely over estimate such things. We shake our fist over "(insert player) should get more development time!"

We see about 1% of their improvement journey, and we assume it's worth a TON because fans are stupid.

I'm trying not to be stupid.

[Galway Eagle]

I understand your point, and I'm not saying playing time has NO EFFECT on a player. Certainly it does.

My point is just that we (fans) likely over estimate such things. We shake our fist over "(insert player) should get more development time!"

We see about 1% of their improvement journey, and we assume it's worth a TON because fans are stupid.

I'm trying not to be stupid.

Look at that respecting each other's opinions and agreeing to disagree while saying that both theories could have impact. Not to mention we did this without blind insults, twisting words and only a couple posts it's like the first civilized disagreement in Scoop history!

[willie warrior]

Reading.  Is.  Fundamental.  I didn't say they get worse. I said there was no evidence that they get better.

And really, what was it about JJJ that gave you the impression that he would have been just as good as Thomas?  He didn't really do much of anything.


Here it is, almost seven years on this board and the willie witless is still a back bencher without an original thought.  Like a book!!  (One with a lot of pictures and real big letters.)

Quoted by the expert on books with lots of pictures and very big letters, as well as the man with all the original thoughts, because after all, only his thoughts matter, and all others thoughts are unoriginal. Remember, his driving thought of all is that Buzz was a stud coach and knew what he was doing by forcefully ramming the elite PG down everybody's throats. And of course, his all time favorite, that Otule was a better player than DG.