MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Autoengineer on October 25, 2014, 05:23:44 PM
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I'm not hearing much about Jajuan Johnson. Here's a guy that was ranked by Scouthoops as the 7th best shooting guard coming out of HS in 2013. 32nd overall. Seems like expectations are low. Not sure why that's the case. Shouldn't we be looking for a breakout season from him?
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I'm expecting a big breakout from him! I think he is going to surprise a lot of people on this board who want to label him overrated and a bust already. With his up and down playing time last year, i think it was hard as a freshman to find his groove. I think with a less schizo coach and consistent minutes, we will all see the player he was hyped up to be coming out of high school.
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I'm expecting a big breakout from him! I think he is going to surprise a lot of people on this board who want to label him overrated and a bust already. With his up and down playing time last year, i think it was hard as a freshman to find his groove. I think with a less schizo coach and consistent minutes, we will all see the player he was hyped up to be coming out of high school.
Of course, no one has done that.
His issues last year went beyond consistent minutes. He oftentimes floated on the perimeter without having much impact even when he was on the floor. Hopefully he will be able to assert himself more this year.
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I'm expecting a big breakout from him! I think he is going to surprise a lot of people on this board who want to label him overrated and a bust already. With his up and down playing time last year, i think it was hard as a freshman to find his groove. I think with a less schizo coach and consistent minutes, we will all see the player he was hyped up to be coming out of high school.
Last year's freshmen played like freshmen. Highs, lows, little consistency. Deonte got it going better than JJJ or Dawson. Let this be a caveat a year from now when the MU world is expecting miracles from Heldt, Hellenson, Cheatham, and NN. I expect JJJ to be better.
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Not trying to lay it all on Buzz, but some coaches do have a better way with freshmen than others do. It took a lot for Buzz to play freshmen. Vander was a 5-star by some ratings, and he got 20 mpg, as did Mayo, who filled a total need (until he stopped making shots a few games into the conference season). In the next three years, Buzz mostly avoided playing freshmen.
Maybe Wojo will have a different philosophy, not only toward freshmen but toward younger players in general. I guess we'll see, won't we?
College hoops history is filled with highly touted freshmen not living up to the hype. But it also is filled with highly touted freshmen being major contributors. Again, we'll see how Wojo handles Ellenson & Co.
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I am expecting big things from JJJ this year. Buzz did a very poor job utilizing him. Wojo understands what this kid is all about and will give him the proper game flow he needs. He is a pure scorer and needs to be playing consistent minutes. He creates defensively also which is what we will be in dire need of this year .
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Buzz held him back like Crean held back Wes.
Honestly, not sure if that deserves teal but I used it anyways.
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He will be fine. He has the skills, just needs to work on confidence and to a degree cockiness.
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I'm not hearing much about Jajuan Johnson. Here's a guy that was ranked by Scouthoops as the 7th best shooting guard coming out of HS in 2013. 32nd overall. Seems like expectations are low. Not sure why that's the case. Shouldn't we be looking for a breakout season from him?
Well, you came to the right place. If you use the MUScoop search function, I think that you'll find a lot of people on this board that are expecting much more from JJJ this year. Dawson seems to be the only sophomore who isn't getting strongly plugged for having a breakout year this year, probably because many are anticipating a lot from Duane Wilson this year.
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I don't think our offensive sets worked well for JJJ's skill sets. I think our defense creating offense will allow his athleticism to shine, both defensively and in the open court on offense. I suspect he'll do much, much better under Wojo's style of play.
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Hope you're right.
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I am expecting big things from JJJ this year. Buzz did a very poor job utilizing him. Wojo understands what this kid is all about and will give him the proper game flow he needs. He is a pure scorer and needs to be playing consistent minutes. He creates defensively also which is what we will be in dire need of this year .
I don't think this can be stated enough. One of the main reasons we weren't good last season was our inability to force the kind of turnovers that create easy baskets. We weren't a good enough shooting team to play as much half-court basketball as we were forced to play.
I don't imagine we'll set the world on fire from half-court sets this season, either, so we had better get some steals and get our athletes flying down the court.
Although they were underutilized by Buzz last season, when JJJ and Burton did play, they did use their quickness to create these kinds of steals and opportunities. Sure, they were out of position on defense sometimes -- which is probably one thing that earned them time on Buzz's bench -- but hopefully they will improve in that part of the game while still taking the kind of educated gambles that lead to easy points.
We need easy points!
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I don't think this can be stated enough. One of the main reasons we weren't good last season was our inability to force the kind of turnovers that create easy baskets. We weren't a good enough shooting team to play as much half-court basketball as we were forced to play.
I don't imagine we'll set the world on fire from half-court sets this season, either, so we had better get some steals and get our athletes flying down the court.
Although they were underutilized by Buzz last season, when JJJ and Burton did play, they did use their quickness to create these kinds of steals and opportunities. Sure, they were out of position on defense sometimes -- which is probably one thing that earned them time on Buzz's bench -- but hopefully they will improve in that part of the game while still taking the kind of educated gambles that lead to easy points.
We need easy points!
+1
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Player Wojo was noted for his defensive skills, Coach Wojo stresses defense skills; JJJ and others will feed off of more turnovers which will benefit a smallish but very quick team.
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I don't think this can be stated enough. One of the main reasons we weren't good last season was our inability to force the kind of turnovers that create easy baskets. We weren't a good enough shooting team to play as much half-court basketball as we were forced to play.
I don't imagine we'll set the world on fire from half-court sets this season, either, so we had better get some steals and get our athletes flying down the court.
Although they were underutilized by Buzz last season, when JJJ and Burton did play, they did use their quickness to create these kinds of steals and opportunities. Sure, they were out of position on defense sometimes -- which is probably one thing that earned them time on Buzz's bench -- but hopefully they will improve in that part of the game while still taking the kind of educated gambles that lead to easy points.
We need easy points!
Agreed. Not just off turnovers either. We need to get easy points off of transition as well. Which means defensive rebounding is going to be really critical. I really think Luke and Teve in total need to average 12+ boards a game if we are going to be a good transition team.
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Player Wojo was noted for his defensive skills, Coach Wojo stresses defense skills; JJJ and others will feed off of more turnovers which will benefit a smallish but very quick team.
Absolutely agree.
I Think the Most important element to the defense are the communications between the players. As the SI article explained, Wojo is trying to instill the “Get on the Line” (communicating) to All the players. One weak link and it doesn’t work.
It might be a good MU Cheer (Get on the Line) to keep the players constant aware of communicating. Wojo might like all the help he can get..
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Although they were underutilized by Buzz last season, when JJJ and Burton did play, they did use their quickness to create these kinds of steals and opportunities.
Burton yes. But JJJ didn't like the world on fire with steals. The last one he had was against Creighton on New Year's Eve. His steal percentage was 1.9 - not great by any means.
I know JJJ has a bunch of potential, but it really is easy to see why he didn't play much toward the end of the year. He wasn't a great defender, and wasn't terribly assertive on the offensive end either. If you read some of the scouting reports on him from high school, this isn't surprising. He played exclusively zone in high school, and relied a great deal on his athleticism on the offensive end. I don't think he was considered overly skilled when he got here.
IMO he was a better version of Jamail Jones. Hopefully he will improve more than Jamail did.
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Burton yes. But JJJ didn't like the world on fire with steals. The last one he had was against Creighton on New Year's Eve. His steal percentage was 1.9 - not great by any means.
I know JJJ has a bunch of potential, but it really is easy to see why he didn't play much toward the end of the year. He wasn't a great defender, and wasn't terribly assertive on the offensive end either. If you read some of the scouting reports on him from high school, this isn't surprising. He played exclusively zone in high school, and relied a great deal on his athleticism on the offensive end. I don't think he was considered overly skilled when he got here.
IMO he was a better version of Jamail Jones. Hopefully he will improve more than Jamail did.
I will defer to you on JJJ's steals stats. I remember him getting a couple of deflections or tips that led to steals ... and that's a couple more than I remember from Derrick. But I could just be remembering what I want to, that is entirely possible.
This will be an important year for JJJ. If he can't establish himself as a legit college player given our lack of depth, a new coaching staff coming in, plenty of opportunity, etc., he might never get it done.
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I will defer to you on JJJ's steals stats. I remember him getting a couple of deflections or tips that led to steals ... and that's a couple more than I remember from Derrick. But I could just be remembering what I want to, that is entirely possible.
This will be an important year for JJJ. If he can't establish himself as a legit college player given our lack of depth, a new coaching staff coming in, plenty of opportunity, etc., he might never get it done.
On the first issue, Derrick had a 2.5 steal percentage. Pretty decent. Deonte was over 5.
On the second, you are 100% right. I am not writing him off in the least, but I don't think he was misused last year. He was a non-entity for the most part. Hopefully the new staff and a summer of hard work will do it for him.
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On the first issue, Derrick had a 2.5 steal percentage. Pretty decent. Deonte was over 5.
On the second, you are 100% right. I am not writing him off in the least, but I don't think he was misused last year. He was a non-entity for the most part. Hopefully the new staff and a summer of hard work will do it for him.
IMO, he was misused. What did playing Jake over him do for us? He could have learned a lot by getting playing time and sure he would have been a liability at times, but he also would have gained valuable experience.
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IMO, he was misused. What did playing Jake over him do for us? He could have learned a lot by getting playing time and sure he would have been a liability at times, but he also would have gained valuable experience.
Not this again. There is no evidence to suggest that he would have been better this year with more playing time last year. Thomas was the better player last year and that's all that matters.
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Not this again. There is no evidence to suggest that he would have been better this year with more playing time last year. Thomas was the better player last year and that's all that matters.
Here it is, almost a year later and the Sultan of Slurpiness is still stealth shilling Buzz's handling of players last year. Like a book!!
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Not this again. There is no evidence to suggest that he would have been better this year with more playing time last year. Thomas was the better player last year and that's all that matters.
You're right, young players usually get worse with more playing time the previous year ::) Thomas was a better player in your opinion last year, I disagree that JJJ wouldn't have been better with equal playing time. Just because it's what you think, doesn't make it a fact.
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You're right, young players usually get worse with more playing time the previous year ::) Thomas was a better player in your opinion last year, I disagree that JJJ wouldn't have been better with equal playing time.
Reading. Is. Fundamental. I didn't say they get worse. I said there was no evidence that they get better.
And really, what was it about JJJ that gave you the impression that he would have been just as good as Thomas? He didn't really do much of anything.
Here it is, almost a year later and the Sultan of Slurpiness is still stealth shilling Buzz's handling of players last year. Like a book!!
Here it is, almost seven years on this board and the willie witless is still a back bencher without an original thought. Like a book!! (One with a lot of pictures and real big letters.)
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We're going to see why RSCI rankings had JJJ as our highest ranked recruit in a long time.
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I'm not hearing much about Jajuan Johnson. Here's a guy that was ranked by Scouthoops as the 7th best shooting guard coming out of HS in 2013. 32nd overall. Seems like expectations are low. Not sure why that's the case. Shouldn't we be looking for a breakout season from him?
Mr. or Mrs. Johnson I presume? ;D
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Reading. Is. Fundamental. I didn't say they get worse. I said there was no evidence that they get better.
And really, what was it about JJJ that gave you the impression that he would have been just as good as Thomas? He didn't really do much of anything.
Here it is, almost seven years on this board and the willie witless is still a back bencher without an original thought. Like a book!! (One with a lot of pictures and real big letters.)
So they just stay the same as they gain more experience? Maybe the magical basketball fairy decides to sprinkle players with improvement as they see fit. Just by walking on the court JJJ would have been just as good as Jake...he really didn't do a whole lot either, save a couple games where he was hot from downtown.
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So they just stay the same as they gain more experience? Maybe the magical basketball fairy decides to sprinkle players with improvement as they see fit. Just by walking on the court JJJ would have been just as good as Jake...he really didn't do a whole lot either, save a couple games where he was hot from downtown.
Yeah I know. Just like the PG position. Recruiting mistakes left a dearth of quality options available. The choices were either a freshman that seemed overwhelmed, a senior who was a former walk-on and for good reason, and a knucklehead who shouldn't have been on the team to begin with.
People label me a Buzz apologist, but I was as critical of his personnel mistakes as anything. We were in that position because he wasted resources on players like Jamail Jones, TJ Taylor and Jamal Ferguson.
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On Thomas v. JJJ. JJJ has more talent but Thomas could out shoot him from three. Our team was so challenged from the outside that playing Jake was a necessary evil. Mayo was the one taking away jjjs minutes (deservedly so).
I hope jjj breaks out this season. But that's what it would be, a break out...not a foregone conclusion. II hope he does break out. I was really high on him last summer. Thought he was going to start over Mayo
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On Thomas v. JJJ. JJJ has more talent but Thomas could out shoot him from three. Our team was so challenged from the outside that playing Jake was a necessary evil. Mayo was the one taking away jjjs minutes (deservedly so).
I hope jjj breaks out this season. But that's what it would be, a break out...not a foregone conclusion. II hope he does break out. I was really high on him last summer. Thought he was going to start over Mayo
Agree on all counts.
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Jake's 3 pt shooting was an asset last year. He just shouldn't have started and played 30 minutes almost every game.
That should have been Mayo(foolish human being or not).
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Here it is, almost a year later and the Sultan of Slurpiness is still stealth shilling Buzz's handling of players last year. Like a book!!
Just when I was beginning to believe willie could add value.
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I am not writing him off in the least, but I don't think he was misused last year. He was a non-entity for the most part. Hopefully the new staff and a summer of hard work will do it for him.
I don't know if I'd say he was "misused," but I would say that Buzz never really gave him a chance once we got into the meat of the season. Even when he did play JJJ, he'd yank him after one bad play.
More than that, I'm a big believer in the "if it's broke try to fix it" philosophy. We obviously were a poor offensive team last season and our defense wasn't the greatest, either. I'd have applauded a little change for the sake of change -- coaches, including many excellent ones, do this quite often. Heck, even Buzz did it with Dawson once, Taylor a couple times and finally Burton near season's end.
Now, maybe JJJ was so bad in practice that he didn't merit even that much run. I wasn't there, so I don't know. I do know what I saw in games, however, and what I saw was the worst backcourt in my 35+ years watching Marquette hoops -- and, as a result, a season without either an NCAA or NIT bid.
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Absolutely agree.
I Think the Most important element to the defense are the communications between the players. As the SI article explained, Wojo is trying to instill the “Get on the Line” (communicating) to All the players. One weak link and it doesn’t work.
It might be a good MU Cheer (Get on the Line) to keep the players constant aware of communicating. Wojo might like all the help he can get..
Actually, "get on the line", (in order to run sprints) is the punishment Wojo serves up when the players forget to communicate in practice. So, a get on the line cheer would probably be taken by the players as criticism by the crowd rather than a rallying cry.
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Actually, "get on the line", (in order to run sprints) is the punishment Wojo serves up when the players forget to communicate in practice. So, a get on the line cheer would probably be taken by the players as criticism by the crowd rather than a rallying cry.
For those who don't like booing the home team, it seems like a nice alternative.
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Actually, "get on the line", (in order to run sprints) is the punishment Wojo serves up when the players forget to communicate in practice. So, a get on the line cheer would probably be taken by the players as criticism by the crowd rather than a rallying cry.
My mistake. I thought it was/is a great reminder to the players to communicate...
Being a negative connotation I certainly hear your point. Thanks
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You're right, young players usually get worse with more playing time the previous year ::) Thomas was a better player in your opinion last year, I disagree that JJJ wouldn't have been better with equal playing time. Just because it's what you think, doesn't make it a fact.
Let's say players practice about 6 days per week, 2 hours per day. It's probably a little more in season, and maybe a little less in the offseason. I'm including weights, film, everything. (somebody with more knowledge feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
That's 12 hours per week, 624 hours per year. A total of 37,440min per year.
If JJJ played an extra 10mpg, that would be about an extra 300min of court time.
So, while we all buy into the cliche that "gametime experience" helps, it's likely that a player's OVERALL experience is likely driving their improvement. Gametime minutes are a component of their improvement, but I'm not sure that it's as valuable as fans assume.
Give me 37,000min. of practice time for a player, and I'll show you a guy who improves.
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Let's say players practice about 6 days per week, 2 hours per day. It's probably a little more in season, and maybe a little less in the offseason. I'm including weights, film, everything. (somebody with more knowledge feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
That's 12 hours per week, 624 hours per year. A total of 37,440min per year.
If JJJ played an extra 10mpg, that would be about an extra 300min of court time.
So, while we all buy into the cliche that "gametime experience" helps, it's likely that a player's OVERALL experience is likely driving their improvement. Gametime minutes are a component of their improvement, but I'm not sure that it's as valuable as fans assume.
Give me 37,000min. of practice time for a player, and I'll show you a guy who improves.
Know nothing fans always want the back up. To them the unseen is always better than the status quo. Even when we were winning people clamored for more Erik Williams, Jamail Jones, etc.. During a difficult year it gets even worse. Either they know more than the guy who watches all 37,440 minutes of practice or the coach really sees it the same way they do but is trying to lose on purpose. Crazy.
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Of all the returning players from last season, I'm most interested to see what JJJ did with an off-season's worth of strength and conditioning. When I first saw him at the beginning of last season my instant impression was his physique simply wasn't ready for the rigors of a college basketball season. Hoping he's taken this time to add on a few pounds.
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Know nothing fans always want the back up. To them the unseen is always better than the status quo. Even when we were winning people clamored for more Erik Williams, Jamail Jones, etc.. During a difficult year it gets even worse. Either they know more than the guy who watches all 37,440 minutes of practice or the coach really sees it the same way they do but is trying to lose on purpose. Crazy.
I don't know which of us you classify as "know nothing." I wasn't clamoring for Williams and Jones, and I wouldn't have been clamoring for changes last season if we had been winning.
But we weren't winning. Change was warranted. So talking about know-nothing fans' silliness during good times has nothing to do with last season.
A good coach is capable of making changes on the fly. Hell, Buzz made a change to Dawson vs. GT and was richly rewarded for it. So Buzz, himself, proved this thesis -- which isn't exactly some secret formula. Good coaches do it all the time.
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I think it's worthwhile criticizing Buzz's approach to playing freshmen most years, and in particular, last year.
There are almost no coaches that play freshmen less than Buzz. Most years, it worked. Last year, it didn't.
I don't know if any of us have an idea of what to expect from JJJ this year.
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I think it's worthwhile criticizing Buzz's approach to playing freshmen most years, and in particular, last year.
There are almost no coaches that play freshmen less than Buzz. Most years, it worked. Last year, it didn't.
I don't know if any of us have an idea of what to expect from JJJ this year.
People ready for the season so we can actually answer these questions and not have academic debates on the board:
(https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/28/5a/d9/285ad967f942c602de91ac0c1d572f37.jpg)
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People ready for the season so we can actually answer these questions and not have academic debates on the board.
There's nothing academic about these debates!
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I think it's worthwhile criticizing Buzz's approach to playing freshmen most years, and in particular, last year.
There are almost no coaches that play freshmen less than Buzz. Most years, it worked. Last year, it didn't.
I don't know if any of us have an idea of what to expect from JJJ this year.
I think this statement should really be applied to just about everyone on the team.
Luke Fischer has played 4.1 minutes on average over 11 games in which he scored 2.1 points per game, with a long of 19 minutes.....we are treating him as if he is the savior when he is eligible.
I think he will be, but we have almost no evidence that anyone will be any good other than Burton.
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I don't know which of us you classify as "know nothing." I wasn't clamoring for Williams and Jones, and I wouldn't have been clamoring for changes last season if we had been winning.
But we weren't winning. Change was warranted. So talking about know-nothing fans' silliness during good times has nothing to do with last season.
A good coach is capable of making changes on the fly. Hell, Buzz made a change to Dawson vs. GT and was richly rewarded for it. So Buzz, himself, proved this thesis -- which isn't exactly some secret formula. Good coaches do it all the time.
The problem is you are equating change = better.
So, while I agree that (insert line up) or (insert player) struggled, that doesn't mean the guy sitting on the bench is better.
I know we can all sit and say "What do they have to lose?!", but I don't think D1 coaches ever think like that. They are control freaks (for the most part) and rarely try something just to try something. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare.
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I don't know which of us you classify as "know nothing." I wasn't clamoring for Williams and Jones, and I wouldn't have been clamoring for changes last season if we had been winning.
But we weren't winning. Change was warranted. So talking about know-nothing fans' silliness during good times has nothing to do with last season.
A good coach is capable of making changes on the fly. Hell, Buzz made a change to Dawson vs. GT and was richly rewarded for it. So Buzz, himself, proved this thesis -- which isn't exactly some secret formula. Good coaches do it all the time.
Good point...yet not in Buzz's world. Buzz was the definition of insanity last season. As I've said, either his ego had gotten so big that he felt he was a good enough basketball coach to win, when playing 4 on 5 -or he simply didn't care a whole lot about winning basketball games last year.
JJJ should have been given a lot more time than he was. Period. If you are Buzz, you have to know Jake Thomas was not the future of your program - then again when you know you are gone - do you really care about developing the future of your program through playing them? Probably not.
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The problem is you are equating change = better.
So, while I agree that (insert line up) or (insert player) struggled, that doesn't mean the guy sitting on the bench is better.
I know we can all sit and say "What do they have to lose?!", but I don't think D1 coaches ever think like that. They are control freaks (for the most part) and rarely try something just to try something. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare.
If you weren't able to watch last year's team and come to the conclusion very early that if change was NOT made in the backcourt - it was going to be a disaster of a season - well, you simply aren't a very astute observer.
You make changes after you have a good deal of data that shows this isn't working....Buzz had plenty of that data...yet refused to change.
It is NOT that difficult to see that if one of your guys isn't guarded within 6 feet on the perimeter and it is clogging the lane for your best players to operate - you've got a major problem.
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I think it's worthwhile criticizing Buzz's approach to playing freshmen most years, and in particular, last year.
There are almost no coaches that play freshmen less than Buzz. Most years, it worked. Last year, it didn't.
I don't know if any of us have an idea of what to expect from JJJ this year.
Now this is a fair critique.
Big picture:
Buzz seemed to land good recruits, but they were rarely productive as underclassman.
In some cases, a specific player might not have had the talent, but it happened enough times that it's a legit critique on WHY the younger players weren't able to develop useful roles.
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If you weren't able to watch last year's team and come to the conclusion very early that if change was NOT made in the backcourt - it was going to be a disaster of a season - well, you simply aren't a very astute observer.
You make changes after you have a good deal of data that shows this isn't working....Buzz had plenty of that data...yet refused to change.
It is NOT that difficult to see that if one of your guys isn't guarded within 6 feet on the perimeter and it is clogging the lane for your best players to operate - you've got a major problem.
We've had this discussion already. I know where you stand. You know where I stand. We don't need to relive it.
My initial post in this thread was simply about the idea that "game minutes" automatically increase improvement. I don't believe that is the case.
Sugar makes an interesting critique about Buzz's track record, but I think that's a big picture perspective, not a direct critique of (insert player) should play instead of (insert player).
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Let's say players practice about 6 days per week, 2 hours per day. It's probably a little more in season, and maybe a little less in the offseason. I'm including weights, film, everything. (somebody with more knowledge feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
That's 12 hours per week, 624 hours per year. A total of 37,440min per year.
If JJJ played an extra 10mpg, that would be about an extra 300min of court time.
So, while we all buy into the cliche that "gametime experience" helps, it's likely that a player's OVERALL experience is likely driving their improvement. Gametime minutes are a component of their improvement, but I'm not sure that it's as valuable as fans assume.
Give me 37,000min. of practice time for a player, and I'll show you a guy who improves.
What you don't acknowledge is how that playing time can affect a player's confidence thus he may not get better skill wise in those 300 minutes but he will get out of his head able to do things freely without fear of getting benched.
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What you don't acknowledge is how that playing time can affect a player's confidence thus he may not get better skill wise in those 300 minutes but he will get out of his head able to do things freely without fear of getting benched.
How much is that worth?
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How much is that worth?
I'd say a considerable amount in a sport like basketball. I mean I don't pretend to have played at a high level or anything but it would seem that confidence (like in any sport) is huge and if you lose that when you're playing then you won't perform to your abilities. Personally that's my theory why a lot of the highly ranked players never did great in games despite their practice praise.
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I'd say a considerable amount in a sport like basketball. I mean I don't pretend to have played at a high level or anything but it would seem that confidence (like in any sport) is huge and if you lose that when you're playing then you won't perform to your abilities. Personally that's my theory why a lot of the highly ranked players never did great in games despite their practice praise.
So can the opposite work as well? If you put someone out there that isn't ready for gametime, can it work to take away their confidence?
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I think it's worthwhile criticizing Buzz's approach to playing freshmen most years, and in particular, last year.
There are almost no coaches that play freshmen less than Buzz. Most years, it worked. Last year, it didn't.
I don't know if any of us have an idea of what to expect from JJJ this year.
I think you are dead on. Buzz wasn't quick to trust freshmen, and the wisdom of that can certainly be debated, especially in a down year.
And we don't know what to expect this year from JJJ. Or Dawson. Or most of the others. Couple of things for sure, though. If JJJ isn't a star it won't be because he was overrated it will be because Buzz ruined him. And if Wojo relegates Dawson to the end of the bench as the least played guard on the roster some people here will still insist he could have saved our season as a freshman last year.
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So can the opposite work as well? If you put someone out there that isn't ready for gametime, can it work to take away their confidence?
Yeah, remember Brandon Bell?
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And we don't know what to expect this year from JJJ. Or Dawson. Or most of the others. Couple of things for sure, though. If JJJ isn't a star it won't be because he was overrated it will be because Buzz ruined him. And if Wojo relegates Dawson to the end of the bench as the least played guard on the roster some people here will still insist he could have saved our season as a freshman last year.
Oh I have already thoroughly expected that with both JJJ and Dawson.
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So can the opposite work as well? If you put someone out there that isn't ready for gametime, can it work to take away their confidence?
Like putting a solid defender/role player as the starting point guard playing insane minutes? Yes Id say so.
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Like putting a solid defender/role player as the starting point guard playing insane minutes? Yes Id say so.
I guess this means you are on record now saying Derrick Wilson is a skilled basketball player who was simply lacking in confidence.
I'll note for the record.
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We've had this discussion already. I know where you stand. You know where I stand. We don't need to relive it.
My initial post in this thread was simply about the idea that "game minutes" automatically increase improvement. I don't believe that is the case.
Sugar makes an interesting critique about Buzz's track record, but I think that's a big picture perspective, not a direct critique of (insert player) should play instead of (insert player).
True....and Jake and Derrick were perfect examples of that last season. Most of us just would have liked to have seen what the freshman could have done if given a fair opportunity - 25+ minutes a game of largely uninterrupted playing time. Only Derrick and Jake last season were given the luxury of getting into a flow of consistent minutes. You cannot make judgments on a player based on 2-3 minute segments of playing time.
Lastly, as I've said before, there was a sequence last season where both Derrick and Dawson played with 9 or 10 different guys within a 3 minute span of game time - that is totally disjointed and ludicrous to think a team could function with any efficiency or effectiveness being coached in such a manic way.
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Reading. Is. Fundamental. I didn't say they get worse. I said there was no evidence that they get better.
And really, what was it about JJJ that gave you the impression that he would have been just as good as Thomas? He didn't really do much of anything.
I'm no willie supporter, but Buzz deserves considerable blame for why a former walk-on performed better than his top-ranked freshman and junior SG - playing a significant amount of minutes more than one should ever have to rely on a former walk-on.
Buzz, for me, gets a lot of blame for the lack of progress of our underclassman the final few years (whether that be lack of developing them in practice or not giving them enough live playing time), and honestly was never that impressive developing them outside of Blue.
EDIT: I'm not forgetting Gardner, but I just think he was the most natural ready freshman we've had in a while and I'm not sure I saw too much "improvement" after his sophomore year.
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I guess this means you are on record now saying Derrick Wilson is a skilled basketball player who was simply lacking in confidence.
I'll note for the record.
Not at all what I said grow up and don't try twisting my words of saying a solid defender/role player somehow means that he's a skilled basketball player. He was a solid role player for a sweet 16 and elite 8, he's still a solid defender. nowhere did I use the words skilled basketball player. Anyone could see the guy lacks the confidence to even shoot the ball or drive the ball though thus yes he lacks confidence and not having confidence isnt gonna do him any favors with improving.
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Lastly, as I've said before, there was a sequence last season where both Derrick and Dawson played with 9 or 10 different guys within a 3 minute span of game time - that is totally disjointed and ludicrous to think a team could function with any efficiency or effectiveness being coached in such a manic way.
I don't necessarily disagree, but that's not new coaching style. Buzz always coached like that, and it worked before, and we all loved him for it.
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Just when I was beginning to believe willie could add value.
Unlike Sultan, right?
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Not at all what I said grow up and don't try twisting my words of saying a solid defender/role player somehow means that he's a skilled basketball player. He was a solid role player for a sweet 16 and elite 8, he's still a solid defender. nowhere did I use the words skilled basketball player. Anyone could see the guy lacks the confidence to even shoot the ball or drive the ball though thus yes he lacks confidence and not having confidence isnt gonna do him any favors with improving.
Dude please.
You used a thread where we were talking about a highly ranked basketball player and your idea that playing time would give him confidence. And then you decided to bring Derrick into it for no real reason that I could tell.
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I'd say a considerable amount in a sport like basketball. I mean I don't pretend to have played at a high level or anything but it would seem that confidence (like in any sport) is huge and if you lose that when you're playing then you won't perform to your abilities. Personally that's my theory why a lot of the highly ranked players never did great in games despite their practice praise.
I don't think you're wrong, but I guess it's hard for me to believe that 300min. of "confidence building" has a huge impact compared to a kid's 30,000+ min. of practice and development.
Confidence is important. But, we're talking about 1% of a players yearly basketball development.
To put it into context: Wade sat out as a frosh, and was fantastic as a soph. and a junior. Could Wade have been even better if he played as a frosh? I guess he could have, but I'm not sure how much better it would have made him.
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Dude please.
You used a thread where we were talking about a highly ranked basketball player and your idea that playing time would give him confidence. And then you decided to bring Derrick into it for no real reason that I could tell.
I saw a comment talking about putting in someone who wasn't ready for showtime and I used derrick as an example as to why I think that was true does that help explain why I brought him up? Doesn't change that you did in fact attempt to childishly twist my words to some extremely different meaning than what I did say.
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I don't think you're wrong, but I guess it's hard for me to believe that 300min. of "confidence building" has a huge impact compared to a kid's 30,000+ min. of practice and development.
Confidence is important. But, we're talking about 1% of a players yearly basketball development.
To put it into context: Wade sat out as a frosh, and was fantastic as a soph. and a junior. Could Wade have been even better if he played as a frosh? I guess he could have, but I'm not sure how much better it would have made him.
True about Wade I guess for me it comes down to if we had made odarty B our guy instead would wades confidence have been shot down a bit and hampered his development? I mean it's a different situation because he was ineligible in my opinion. Overall I was just throwing out my theory I respect yours about practice because practice does make perfect but it just doesn't add up to me when Buzz was raving about JJJ in practice but it didn't translate to anything.
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I don't necessarily disagree, but that's not new coaching style. Buzz always coached like that, and it worked before, and we all loved him for it.
This simply is not true. Buzz never was a maniacal with his subbing patterns in any of his previous 5 years as he was last year. Buzz also never "lost" any of his previous teams, yet it is well known there were plenty of locker room issues with last year's team - and I don't think for one second those issues weren't the result of the players being beyond frustrated with their erratic roles.
Buzz did do some offense/defense subbing with Otule and Gardner historically - but that was very situational specific and player specific. Buzz also would do "line changes" in non conference play, but never once conference play started would be sub 9 different guys into a game in a 3 minute stretch...at least not that I recall...and if he did historically...it was quite rare..and it didn't happen with near the frequency of what we saw last year. Never in 30 years of playing/watching basketball closely had I ever seen coaching as bizarre as what we saw last year.
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Buzz also never "lost" any of his previous teams, yet it is well known there were plenty of locker room issues with last year's team - and I don't think for one second those issues weren't the result of the players being beyond frustrated with their erratic roles.
Even giving you an unproven statement (that Buzz "lost" last year's team), wouldn't the most logical reason for that be our much worse record last year than in previous seasons? Why make up stuff ("erratic roles") and ignore the obvious? Do you always choose conspiracy or speculation over common sense?
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This simply is not true. Buzz never was a maniacal with his subbing patterns in any of his previous 5 years as he was last year. Buzz also never "lost" any of his previous teams, yet it is well known there were plenty of locker room issues with last year's team - and I don't think for one second those issues weren't the result of the players being beyond frustrated with their erratic roles.
Buzz did do some offense/defense subbing with Otule and Gardner historically - but that was very situational specific and player specific. Buzz also would do "line changes" in non conference play, but never once conference play started would be sub 9 different guys into a game in a 3 minute stretch...at least not that I recall...and if he did historically...it was quite rare..and it didn't happen with near the frequency of what we saw last year. Never in 30 years of playing/watching basketball closely had I ever seen coaching as bizarre as what we saw last year.
I'm not saying he did EVERYTHING EXACTLY the same way last season, I'm just saying that in the grand scheme, it seemed like the "same ol Buzz" to me. When MU was winning, we were all applauding him for being "different". When they had a losing season, suddenly we think every move he made was terrible?
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JJJ looked like a freshman. He did well against OOC cupcakes, had a couple of bright spots, but never showed anything even when he did see the floor during the conference games. His decision making, shot selection, and defense during those stretches did not merit more play. The best case scenario is that he makes the leap that many do when they go from freshman to sophomores. If he has gotten stronger, hustles and plays defense to Wojo's standards, and hits the occasional 3, he will see the floor. And MU is certainly going to need him.
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Even giving you an unproven statement (that Buzz "lost" last year's team), wouldn't the most logical reason for that be our much worse record last year than in previous seasons? Why make up stuff ("erratic roles") and ignore the obvious? Do you always choose conspiracy or speculation over common sense?
I'm not even certain it's proven that his substitution patterns were all that different. Really you would have to go through the game logs from one year to the next to come up with a substitutions per game stat.
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True about Wade I guess for me it comes down to if we had made odarty B our guy instead would wades confidence have been shot down a bit and hampered his development? I mean it's a different situation because he was ineligible in my opinion. Overall I was just throwing out my theory I respect yours about practice because practice does make perfect but it just doesn't add up to me when Buzz was raving about JJJ in practice but it didn't translate to anything.
I understand your point, and I'm not saying playing time has NO EFFECT on a player. Certainly it does.
My point is just that we (fans) likely over estimate such things. We shake our fist over "(insert player) should get more development time!"
We see about 1% of their improvement journey, and we assume it's worth a TON because fans are stupid.
I'm trying not to be stupid.
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I understand your point, and I'm not saying playing time has NO EFFECT on a player. Certainly it does.
My point is just that we (fans) likely over estimate such things. We shake our fist over "(insert player) should get more development time!"
We see about 1% of their improvement journey, and we assume it's worth a TON because fans are stupid.
I'm trying not to be stupid.
Look at that respecting each other's opinions and agreeing to disagree while saying that both theories could have impact. Not to mention we did this without blind insults, twisting words and only a couple posts it's like the first civilized disagreement in Scoop history!
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Reading. Is. Fundamental. I didn't say they get worse. I said there was no evidence that they get better.
And really, what was it about JJJ that gave you the impression that he would have been just as good as Thomas? He didn't really do much of anything.
Here it is, almost seven years on this board and the willie witless is still a back bencher without an original thought. Like a book!! (One with a lot of pictures and real big letters.)
Quoted by the expert on books with lots of pictures and very big letters, as well as the man with all the original thoughts, because after all, only his thoughts matter, and all others thoughts are unoriginal. Remember, his driving thought of all is that Buzz was a stud coach and knew what he was doing by forcefully ramming the elite PG down everybody's throats. And of course, his all time favorite, that Otule was a better player than DG.
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The problem is you are equating change = better.
So, while I agree that (insert line up) or (insert player) struggled, that doesn't mean the guy sitting on the bench is better.
I know we can all sit and say "What do they have to lose?!", but I don't think D1 coaches ever think like that. They are control freaks (for the most part) and rarely try something just to try something. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare.
Good coaches are problem-solvers.
Jake was a walk-on but Buzz gave him a scholarship and begged him to stay because Buzz saw a problem -- awful shooting -- that needed solving.
During the season, Buzz saw a problem -- the offense was playing 4-on-5 -- and yet did next to nothing.
I agree with you that we've all been down this road before. I simply reject the hypothesis that "Buzz had no choice." He had choices: Kids he recruited. A few of them -- Dawson and Taylor the couple times he gave them a chance, Burton at the end of the season -- even flourished when Buzz made the choice to play them for more than 1-2 minute stretches.
I consider myself one of the more pragmatic posters, one of the folks least likely to get overly excited about something good or panic about something bad. Hell, I was still sticking up for Buzz in January ... until it became obvious something was very wrong with how he was managing the team.
Saying he was "managing the team the way he always did and nobody complained when it worked," as some apologists here like to do, is not a valid defense. A good coach is a problem-solver who is capable of recognizing when the status quo isn't working.
I actually feel bad for Derrick (and, to a lesser extent, Jake) because he was put in a position where he couldn't succeed, a major no-no for any coach.
Ners goes on and on about this stuff -- bringing it up in any comment stream any time -- so it's easy to dismiss him. But IMHO, he happens to be right about most of what he says on this subject.
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Good coaches are problem-solvers.
Jake was a walk-on but Buzz gave him a scholarship and begged him to stay because Buzz saw a problem -- awful shooting -- that needed solving.
During the season, Buzz saw a problem -- the offense was playing 4-on-5 -- and yet did next to nothing.
I agree with you that we've all been down this road before. I simply reject the hypothesis that "Buzz had no choice." He had choices: Kids he recruited. A few of them -- Dawson and Taylor the couple times he gave them a chance, Burton at the end of the season -- even flourished when Buzz made the choice to play them for more than 1-2 minute stretches.
I consider myself one of the more pragmatic posters, one of the folks least likely to get overly excited about something good or panic about something bad. Hell, I was still sticking up for Buzz in January ... until it became obvious something was very wrong with how he was managing the team.
Saying he was "managing the team the way he always did and nobody complained when it worked," as some apologists here like to do, is not a valid defense. A good coach is a problem-solver who is capable of recognizing when the status quo isn't working.
I actually feel bad for Derrick (and, to a lesser extent, Jake) because he was put in a position where he couldn't succeed, a major no-no for any coach.
Ners goes on and on about this stuff -- bringing it up in any comment stream any time -- so it's easy to dismiss him. But IMHO, he happens to be right about most of what he says on this subject.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Buzz did a good job last season. He needed to get better performance out of both guard positions. I wanted a mix&match rotation to maximize players strengths (much like Gardner & Otule). Buzz chose a different route.
BUT, I think it's a bit naive to sit here and say that (insert) would've been better than (insert) when fans really see SOOOO LITTLE.
In previous years, fans on this site were BLASTING trent lockett, Vander, Junior, etc. etc. Turns out, Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty, and he knew his team better than the fans.
I think Buzz was doing the same things last year, and it just didn't work. Hard for me to be THAT upset when he was doing the same types of things that worked for him in the past.
If we didn't like quirky rotations, we should have been complaining about quirky rotations for years.
Turns out that maybe we just don't like losing.
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Kids he recruited who weren't ready for big minutes. Freshmen. The only one I thought deserved more minutes was Burton, and I was always nervous when he and Gardner were together on the defensive end.
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Kids he recruited who weren't ready for big minutes. Freshmen. The only one I thought deserved more minutes was Burton, and I was always nervous when he and Gardner were together on the defensive end.
Much the same could be said about being nervous when Derrick and Jake were together on the offensive end. Problem is even the best offensive players only execute successfully 50% of the time against the defense...yet when you have guys so limited offensively...that is with you 100% of the time on the offensive end of the court. I'd take marginal defenders over total offensive liabilities 100% of the time.
Problem with Buzz last year was he rolled out a lineup of Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil and Otule to start games. WTF? How in God's name is that lineup going to be able to score effectively?
Buzz never should have paired Derrick with Jake for 30 minutes. Jake could have been situational, if Buzz was convinced Derrick had to be his 30 minute per game PG. Play Derrick with Todd, Deonte, Jamil and even Otule if you want to have some offense (Gardner) off the bench. At least in that lineup you have 3 very effective scorers...Gardner and Jake could have come in off the bench together and Jake would help Gardner operate as Jake would help space the floor...but you'd have to have another threat out there with Derrick, Jake and Gardner - Mayo/Jamil/Burton.
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Buzz never should have paired Derrick with Jake for 30 minutes.
This is my fundamental complaint with last year. Not one. Not the other. But both all the time.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/01a5ada7-51c7-433d-81c7-ec1bb76e3a20.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/01a5ada7-51c7-433d-81c7-ec1bb76e3a20.png.html)
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This is my fundamental complaint with last year. Not one. Not the other. But both all the time.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/MPGvsNetpoints.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/MPGvsNetpoints.png.html)
Bingo - Buzz did a disservice to actually both Derrick and Jake - in maxing their minutes together. That team could have been effective and much better had different rotations been developed.
Derrick, Todd, Deonte, Jamil Otule would have been a nice lineup
Subs: Gardner, Taylor, Jake (spot minutes for JJJ and Dawson)
That was another beef - was that Buzz did have different options (even if he didn't want to go to Dawson at PG...fine...but at least alter the minutes among your vets and balance deficiencies.)
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He will be fine. He has the skills, just needs to work on confidence and to a degree cockiness.
Confidence is the key to me. Frankly, I wrote him off at Marquette madness. Not because he missed his open looks, but because you could see his body language change when he missed the shots. I just figured a player like that is not going to play for Wojo. Maybe Wojo will toughen him up, but if he continuously gets down on himself he will not play anymore than he did last year.
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Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Buzz did a good job last season. He needed to get better performance out of both guard positions. I wanted a mix&match rotation to maximize players strengths (much like Gardner & Otule). Buzz chose a different route.
BUT, I think it's a bit naive to sit here and say that (insert) would've been better than (insert) when fans really see SOOOO LITTLE.
In previous years, fans on this site were BLASTING trent lockett, Vander, Junior, etc. etc. Turns out, Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty, and he knew his team better than the fans.
I think Buzz was doing the same things last year, and it just didn't work. Hard for me to be THAT upset when he was doing the same types of things that worked for him in the past.
If we didn't like quirky rotations, we should have been complaining about quirky rotations for years.
Turns out that maybe we just don't like losing.
I am NOT complaining about quirky rotations. I don't know as I ever complained about Buzz's rotations. Others might be commenting about them, but I am not. Hell, I wish he had more rotations involving his backcourt rather than sticking so long with what wasn't working.
I am complaining because he had an obvious problem -- so obvious that he, himself, commented about it many times -- but he refused to even try to come up with solutions.
I am not sure that (insert) would have been better than (insert). But I am 100% sure that what we had in the backcourt was worse than that of any other Big East team.
Let's try this ...
You have an owwie on your finger. Every time you have to reach your hand into your pocket, you aggravate the owwie to the point where it's causing quite a bit of pain. You have three choices:
1. Stop reaching into your pocket. Unfortunately, though, you occasionally need stuff in your pocket, so this isn't practical.
2. Put a Band-Aid on the owwie. This might be only temporary. The Band-Aid might fall off or wear away. You'll have to change the Band-Aid and monitor the owwie. You might still occasionally aggravate the owwie but, for the short term anyway, you might get some relief and get by another day without aggravating the owwie.
3. Do nothing and keep aggravating the owwie, despite the knowledge that it will cause pain over and over and over again.
Buzz could have at least tried a Band-Aid on the owwie. In fact, when he did try it a couple of times, he got some temporary relief. Mostly, though, he kept aggravating that owwie and the pain eventually became insufferable.
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I am NOT complaining about quirky rotations. I don't know as I ever complained about Buzz's rotations. Others might be commenting about them, but I am not. Hell, I wish he had more rotations involving his backcourt rather than sticking so long with what wasn't working.
I am complaining because he had an obvious problem -- so obvious that he, himself, commented about it many times -- but he refused to even try to come up with solutions.
I am not sure that (insert) would have been better than (insert). But I am 100% sure that what we had in the backcourt was worse than that of any other Big East team.
Let's try this ...
You have an owwie on your finger. Every time you have to reach your hand into your pocket, you aggravate the owwie to the point where it's causing quite a bit of pain. You have three choices:
1. Stop reaching into your pocket. Unfortunately, though, you occasionally need stuff in your pocket, so this isn't practical.
2. Put a Band-Aid on the owwie. This might be only temporary. The Band-Aid might fall off or wear away. You'll have to change the Band-Aid and monitor the owwie. You might still occasionally aggravate the owwie but, for the short term anyway, you might get some relief and get by another day without aggravating the owwie.
3. Do nothing and keep aggravating the owwie, despite the knowledge that it will cause pain over and over and over again.
Buzz could have at least tried a Band-Aid on the owwie. In fact, when he did try it a couple of times, he got some temporary relief. Mostly, though, he kept aggravating that owwie and the pain eventually became insufferable.
Right, but Buzz did #3 in previous seasons, and it worked out for him... so he opted for #3.
I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I guess it's just a matter of perspective for all of us.
Some people think they are evaluating "coaching", but really, they are just evaluating "winning". When the same coach used the same techniques and won, they LOVED him and made some bold predictions about multiple final 4's. When he lost, they wanted him run out of town.
He's the same coach. The only thing that changed were the wins. Not every move is going to work out, but that doesn't mean the coach suddenly forgot how to coach.
If we're going to evaluate "coaching", then we have to use more criteria than "wins".
(this is directed at you personally, just commentary on some stuff I read around here).
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Let's try this ...
You have an owwie on your finger. Every time you have to reach your hand into your pocket, you aggravate the owwie to the point where it's causing quite a bit of pain. You have three choices:
1. Stop reaching into your pocket. Unfortunately, though, you occasionally need stuff in your pocket, so this isn't practical.
2. Put a Band-Aid on the owwie. This might be only temporary. The Band-Aid might fall off or wear away. You'll have to change the Band-Aid and monitor the owwie. You might still occasionally aggravate the owwie but, for the short term anyway, you might get some relief and get by another day without aggravating the owwie.
3. Do nothing and keep aggravating the owwie, despite the knowledge that it will cause pain over and over and over again.
Buzz could have at least tried a Band-Aid on the owwie. In fact, when he did try it a couple of times, he got some temporary relief. Mostly, though, he kept aggravating that owwie and the pain eventually became insufferable.
Band Aids protect the "owwie" and are, by definition, at least a temporary solution. Where's the evidence that Dawson or JJJ would have been a solution, even a temporary one? Putting a dirty band aid on a cut might make it less painful to put your hand in your pocket but it can also infect the "owwie" and make it much worse. Those blankets we gave the Indians may have temporarily warmed them but they also gave them smallpox. Sometime you have to suck it up and play the hand you were dealt (or in this case the hand Buzz mostly dealt himself). If Buzz would have put a guy like Dawson out there against a team who pressured the ball it would have been a disaster, not a band aid (a year later he had 7 TOs in a brief frackin' scrimmage). Watching JJJ it was clear he wasn't "getting it" either. Dawson and JJJ have a whole year under their belt now. They should be more ready physically, mentally and emotionally. I hope they're both so good that Derrick never sees the floor and Carlino backs up JJJ. We'll see.
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Band Aids protect the "owwie" and are, by definition, at least a temporary solution. Where's the evidence that Dawson or JJJ would have been a solution, even a temporary one? Putting a dirty band aid on a cut might make it less painful to put your hand in your pocket but it can also infect the "owwie" and make it much worse. Those blankets we gave the Indians may have temporarily warmed them but they also gave them smallpox. Sometime you have to suck it up and play the hand you were dealt (or in this case the hand Buzz mostly dealt himself). If Buzz would have put a guy like Dawson out there against a team who pressured the ball it would have been a disaster, not a band aid (a year later he had 7 TOs in a brief frackin' scrimmage). Watching JJJ it was clear he wasn't "getting it" either. Dawson and JJJ have a whole year under their belt now. They should be more ready physically, mentally and emotionally. I hope they're both so good that Derrick never sees the floor and Carlino backs up JJJ. We'll see.
Umm, did you not watch the Georgetown game?
Can Buzz Williams do anything wrong in your opinion?
Did you enjoy watching game after game after game of no on guarding our point guard last season? Watching the most inefficient Marquette team in years? Enjoy the 43% FT shooting and 7% shooting from the PG position? No transition game? Loss after loss mounting up? No wins over quality teams?
And let's get real, Derrick wasn't good at all against stiff ball pressure - yet teams rarely applied it as they knew they could simply play 5 on 4 in the half court set so no need to try to disrupt through applying intense ball pressure. You'll note WOJO has said this year's team is going to HAVE to apply intense ball pressure to be able to compete due to its size limitations. MU had an absolute weapon in the post last season, yet teams were able to sag 6 feet off our PG and clog the lane and make it next to impossible to feed the post...yet if it were done Gardner had zero room to operate.
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Umm, did you not watch the Georgetown game?
One game out of 32 against a team that exclusively played zone.
If you're right that John Dawson was the answer last year as a freshman he'll be a stud as a sophomore and I'll apologize and admit I was wrong. But if he remains behind Derrick on the depth chart there are two possibilities:
1. Our new coach is throwing games
or
2. You were wrong.
Time will tell.
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So they just stay the same as they gain more experience? Maybe the magical basketball fairy decides to sprinkle players with improvement as they see fit. Just by walking on the court JJJ would have been just as good as Jake...he really didn't do a whole lot either, save a couple games where he was hot from downtown.
The way I see it is Jake was mid-major talent with high major toughness. JJJ has high major talent with mid-major toughness. Buzz was all about tipping your bottle over and seeing who was tough enough to get up. Wojo was also a tough player. As the saying goes " When the going gets tough the tough get going" I am not sure JJJ has that mentality. I hope he proves me wrong, but there has to be some reason why Buzz did not play him more. Burton's amount of time increased as the year went on and JJJ's decreased, so saying Buzz does not play freshmen is not the real answer.
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The way I see it is Jake was mid-major talent with high major toughness. JJJ has high major talent with mid-major toughness. Buzz was all about tipping your bottle over and seeing who was tough enough to get up. Wojo was also a tough player. As the saying goes " When the going gets tough the tough get going" I am not sure JJJ has that mentality. I hope he proves me wrong, but there has to be some reason why Buzz did not play him more. Burton's amount of time increased as the year went on and JJJ's decreased, so saying Buzz does not play freshmen is not the real answer.
I think bilsu and I are on the exact same page with regards to JJJ. He strikes me as kind of goof ball.
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Umm, did you not watch the Georgetown game?
Can Buzz Williams do anything wrong in your opinion?
Did you enjoy watching game after game after game of no on guarding our point guard last season? Watching the most inefficient Marquette team in years? Enjoy the 43% FT shooting and 7% shooting from the PG position? No transition game? Loss after loss mounting up? No wins over quality teams?
And let's get real, Derrick wasn't good at all against stiff ball pressure - yet teams rarely applied it as they knew they could simply play 5 on 4 in the half court set so no need to try to disrupt through applying intense ball pressure. You'll note WOJO has said this year's team is going to HAVE to apply intense ball pressure to be able to compete due to its size limitations. MU had an absolute weapon in the post last season, yet teams were able to sag 6 feet off our PG and clog the lane and make it next to impossible to feed the post...yet if it were done Gardner had zero room to operate.
If you were at this year's MU madness it was not even close as to who was better between Derrick and Dawson. The real argument is which Wilson? As the saying goes" every dog has his day". Georgetown was simply Dawson's day just like there was one game as a freshmen when Blue scored around 25 points. You cannot look at a player's best game and say that is how good the player is. I like Dawson and I think he should of played more, but his overall game was not better than Derrick's then or now.
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I think bilsu and I are on the exact same page with regards to JJJ. He strikes me as kind of goof ball.
I really like JJJs spirit and personality and I believe when he gets more minutes it will be infectious on his teammates. JJJ has high major ability and will show it this year .
As to Derrick and Jake , I think we would stars at low level D-1, meaningful contributors at mid major and role players at High D-1. That was obvious by there performance . I would like to see Derick at 12-15 minutes of very intense play. I am ok if he starts and plays 3-4 hard minutes of tough defense at the start. Takes a breather and repeats the process. He should not be in the game at crunch time though.
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I agree he should not be in the game at crunch time.
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One game out of 32 against a team that exclusively played zone.
If you're right that John Dawson was the answer last year as a freshman he'll be a stud as a sophomore and I'll apologize and admit I was wrong. But if he remains behind Derrick on the depth chart there are two possibilities:
1. Our new coach is throwing games
or
2. You were wrong.
Time will tell.
Zone or man, you are still playing basketball....and have to make shots. Dawson made some big ones in that game. Shoots the ball MUCH better than Derrick. There is no debating that. Seems to me Dawson would have "earned" at least a little more than 8 minutes the next game against Villanova. If Derrick were showing improvement over the course of the season, fine..but he wasn't, and may have even regressed. His last 5 games were AWFUL.
And no, if Derrick plays more than Dawson this season, it doesn't mean Wojo is throwing games..it means that Derrick has improved and he'll be surrounded by a hell of alot better supporting cast than what Buzz insisted on rolling out last season. Derrick may have been serviceable last year if Buzz played him with guys who could score...yet Buzz didn't..and played the most challenged starting lineup I've seen in recent memory at MU.
I HIGHLY doubt if we once again see teams sagging 6 feet off of Derrick game after game and the team continues to lose, Wojo won't hesitate to bench him. Hopefully Derrick's hard work this summer pays off and he can be a threat to shoot and score from the perimeter.
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One game out of 32 against a team that exclusively played zone.
If you're right that John Dawson was the answer last year as a freshman he'll be a stud as a sophomore and I'll apologize and admit I was wrong. But if he remains behind Derrick on the depth chart there are two possibilities:
1. Our new coach is throwing games
or
2. You were wrong.
Time will tell.
I know you and Ners have been having fun on this issue for months and months, so I'll try not to interrupt too much ...
I don't know about others, but I never once floated the "throwing games" theory. It's silly. So whether or not Dawson remains behind Derrick, I won't be warbling that familiar tune, just as I didn't warble it about Buzz.
I never advocated Dawson moving ahead of Derrick on the depth chart last season and I don't advocate it this season. I merely opined that when Derrick was lousy, Dawson should have played a little more; and when Dawson did play, he should have gotten a bit longer leash than a few trips down the court.
The fact is, Dawson WAS a Band-Aid solution and he did cover up that owwie temporarily. Taylor was, too. Burton also was before he earned the right to be more than that late in the season. So it's not some outlandish conjecture to say maybe Buzz should have tried applying Band-Aids a few more times than he did.
I am not sure Dawson is a high-major player. I actually lean toward thinking he isn't -- although the sample size so far is too small. But the sample size isn't too small on Derrick, and I am 100% sure he is not a starting high-major PG.
Derrick should be exactly what he was his first two seasons in the program. And unless he miraculously has improved, I'll be disappointed if Wojo pulls a Buzz and tries to make Derrick something he isn't.
Of course, I'm sure Wojo is really worried about disappointing me ... or any of the rest of us yutzes!!
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Zone or man, you are still playing basketball....and have to make shots. Dawson made some big ones in that game. Shoots the ball MUCH better than Derrick. There is no debating that. Seems to me Dawson would have "earned" at least a little more than 8 minutes the next game against Villanova. If Derrick were showing improvement over the course of the season, fine..but he wasn't, and may have even regressed. His last 5 games were AWFUL.
And no, if Derrick plays more than Dawson this season, it doesn't mean Wojo is throwing games..it means that Derrick has improved and he'll be surrounded by a hell of alot better supporting cast than what Buzz insisted on rolling out last season. Derrick may have been serviceable last year if Buzz played him with guys who could score...yet Buzz didn't..and played the most challenged starting lineup I've seen in recent memory at MU.
I HIGHLY doubt if we once again see teams sagging 6 feet off of Derrick game after game and the team continues to lose, Wojo won't hesitate to bench him. Hopefully Derrick's hard work this summer pays off and he can be a threat to shoot and score from the perimeter.
Last year it was almost all about Derrick/Dawson. Now that Wojo has named Derrick a captain and Dawson has struggled in a couple of scrimmages the back peddling has begun. Derrick will be greatly improved (won't Dawson?) and it wasn't just Derrick (it was for you for months last year), it was the lineups he played with, etc.
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I know you and Ners have been having fun on this issue for months and months, so I'll try not to interrupt too much ...
I don't know about others, but I never once floated the "throwing games" theory. It's silly. So whether or not Dawson remains behind Derrick, I won't be warbling that familiar tune, just as I didn't warble it about Buzz.
I never advocated Dawson moving ahead of Derrick on the depth chart last season and I don't advocate it this season. I merely opined that when Derrick was lousy, Dawson should have played a little more; and when Dawson did play, he should have gotten a bit longer leash than a few trips down the court.
The fact is, Dawson WAS a Band-Aid solution and he did cover up that owwie temporarily. Taylor was, too. Burton also was before he earned the right to be more than that late in the season. So it's not some outlandish conjecture to say maybe Buzz should have tried applying Band-Aids a few more times than he did.
I am not sure Dawson is a high-major player. I actually lean toward thinking he isn't -- although the sample size so far is too small. But the sample size isn't too small on Derrick, and I am 100% sure he is not a starting high-major PG.
Derrick should be exactly what he was his first two seasons in the program. And unless he miraculously has improved, I'll be disappointed if Wojo pulls a Buzz and tries to make Derrick something he isn't.
Of course, I'm sure Wojo is really worried about disappointing me ... or any of the rest of us yutzes!!
Agree with everything here except the conclusion that Dawson was a band aid SOLUTION. Much more often than not he was anything but.
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Last year it was almost all about Derrick/Dawson. Now that Wojo has named Derrick a captain and Dawson has struggled in a couple of scrimmages the back peddling has begun. Derrick will be greatly improved (won't Dawson?) and it wasn't just Derrick (it was for you for months last year), it was the lineups he played with, etc.
Wow. A high character kid that played more minutes than anyone else on the team last season was named a captain as a senior? Shocker.
I'm not confident Derrick will be "greatly improved" (where did I say that?) - I hope he is - and the truth of the matter is it won't take much at all to improve over last season.
And yes, I will stand by my feeling of last season that Derrick was THEE achilles heel on that team. The level to which he was an achilles heel could have been mitigated if Buzz chose to play him with a better supporting cast - but rolling him out there with a guy who can't make a 2 point FG to save his life, Juan Anderson and Chris Otule wasn't going to get it done - nor did it make any sense when you have guys like Todd Mayo and Deonte Burton on the bench.
But I know...in your twisted view and love for Buzz Williams...you cannot concede he was an awful coach last season, lost the team, and made a bizarre choice for school to move onto from Marquette...and his since revealed he basically was a fraud - had no toughness - and left MU due to feeling he couldn't live up to the expectations of our fanbase due to his previous success. Wow! Nice Buzz.
Your defense of Buzz is every bit as passionate and cheesy as has been Chico's of Tom Crean the last 6 years - yet you constantly battle Chico's and belittle Crean's accomplishments. Why can't you do the same with Buzz? Call a spade a spade.
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Agree with everything here except the conclusion that Dawson was a band aid SOLUTION. Much more often than not he was anything but.
As opposed to the guy in front of him who was given max minutes, consistent playing time, and gave us 1 of 14 from the 3 point line and 43% from the FT line. For as many close games as we lost...just think if Derrick could have scored the ball a little more...not to mention what it would have done for the other guys on the team if they didn't have to play 4 on 5. LOL.
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Wow. A high character kid that played more minutes than anyone else on the team last season was named a captain as a senior? Shocker.
I'm not confident Derrick will be "greatly improved" (where did I say that?) - I hope he is - and the truth of the matter is it won't take much at all to improve over last season.
And yes, I will stand by my feeling of last season that Derrick was THEE achilles heel on that team. The level to which he was an achilles heel could have been mitigated if Buzz chose to play him with a better supporting cast - but rolling him out there with a guy who can't make a 2 point FG to save his life, Juan Anderson and Chris Otule wasn't going to get it done - nor did it make any sense when you have guys like Todd Mayo and Deonte Burton on the bench.
But I know...in your twisted view and love for Buzz Williams...you cannot concede he was an awful coach last season, lost the team, and made a bizarre choice for school to move onto from Marquette...and his since revealed he basically was a fraud - had no toughness - and left MU due to feeling he couldn't live up to the expectations of our fanbase due to his previous success. Wow! Nice Buzz.
Your defense of Buzz is every bit as passionate and cheesy as has been Chico's of Tom Crean the last 6 years - yet you constantly battle Chico's and belittle Crean's accomplishments. Why can't you do the same with Buzz? Call a spade a spade.
Very nice, Ners. One thing you shaded the wrong way--Buzz left because he was shown the door.
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Very nice, Ners. One thing you shaded the wrong way--Buzz left because he was shown the door.
Keep saying it. That doesn't make it true. (It isn't.)
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Problem with Buzz last year was he rolled out a lineup of Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil and Otule to start games. WTF? How in God's name is that lineup going to be able to score effectively?
This is where you hit the jackpot. NO REASONABLE COACH could ever expect to beat a decent team with this type of lineup. 4 non-scorers and a guy who get about 12-13 a game. Really?
Everyone wants a great defense, but even if all 5 of those guys were GREAT defenders, you cannot beat a good team. If you have a great defense that holds a good team to 60 points - you still have to SCORE 61 to win.
No, JJJ and Deonte weren't ready to play at a high level, but whose job is it to get them ready? And while there defense wasn't good, at least they could have put the ball in the basket occasionally.
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The way I see it is Jake was mid-major talent with high major toughness. JJJ has high major talent with mid-major toughness. Buzz was all about tipping your bottle over and seeing who was tough enough to get up. Wojo was also a tough player. As the saying goes " When the going gets tough the tough get going" I am not sure JJJ has that mentality. I hope he proves me wrong, but there has to be some reason why Buzz did not play him more. Burton's amount of time increased as the year went on and JJJ's decreased, so saying Buzz does not play freshmen is not the real answer.
The reason is that no coaches play freshmen less than Buzz.
Burton averaged:
Year 12.6
NC 14.5
C 11.3
1st half Conference 11.1
2nd half Conference 11.4
Burton played less at the end of the year than he did at the beginning of the year, and there was virtually no difference between how much Burton played the first 9 games of conference play and the last 10 games of conference play.
Also, for the "Buzz was goofy with his patterns" crowd, Burton's PT was really inconsistent. Lots of games with 6 min or less. Lots of games with 17+ min.
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This is where you hit the jackpot. NO REASONABLE COACH could ever expect to beat a decent team with this type of lineup. 4 non-scorers and a guy who get about 12-13 a game. Really?
Everyone wants a great defense, but even if all 5 of those guys were GREAT defenders, you cannot beat a good team. If you have a great defense that holds a good team to 60 points - you still have to SCORE 61 to win.
No, JJJ and Deonte weren't ready to play at a high level, but whose job is it to get them ready? And while there defense wasn't good, at least they could have put the ball in the basket occasionally.
You can't on one hand claim that Buzz shouldn't have been playing the line up he did, and then on the other acknowledging that JJJ and Deonte weren't ready.
And no, the head coach isn't the sole reason why a player may not be ready.
That being said, Deonte should have played more. JJJ? I'm sorry but no. He was very much ineffective.
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Very nice, Ners. One thing you shaded the wrong way--Buzz left because he was shown the door.
He wasn't shown the door. He found his own door, even opened it. The university merely didn't bend over backwards (or even really bend at all) to keep him from walking through the door. On to the next one!
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He wasn't shown the door. He found his own door, even opened it. The university merely didn't bend over backwards (or even really bend at all) to keep him from walking through the door. On to the next one!
That coincides with everything I've heard. Essentially Buzz wore out his welcome...and was true to his word in the sense that "I'll stay as long as they'll have me." (Yet to be tacked onto that statement needed to be a qualifier of - "so long as I get everything I want and ask for.")
Buzz was never the country bumpkin he played himself up to be...and from Day 1 was very intelligent...the aww shucks thing was schtick. However, the degree of his ego is what changed and evolved over his time at MU and with his success. He became a full fledged prima donna.
I stopped having his back when even after winning the power struggle with Larry Williams, and Pilarz being removed - he still couldn't get along (meet halfway) with Wild and Cords who had proven to be very Men's basketball friendly historically, and very supportive of the head coach at MU.
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One game out of 32 against a team that exclusively played zone.
If you're right that John Dawson was the answer last year as a freshman he'll be a stud as a sophomore and I'll apologize and admit I was wrong. But if he remains behind Derrick on the depth chart there are two possibilities:
1. Our new coach is throwing games
or
2. You were wrong.
Time will tell.
Not necessarily. Option 3 is that the roster makeup of this year's team is completely different and the need to apply full-court pressure and play 4-guard lineups at times might play better to Derrick's strengths.
An argument can certainly be made that while Derrick may have been a better overall player (in practice, one on one, "playing to the scouting report", wherever) than Dawson last year, but his presence negatively affected others (like Davante) and overall team production offensively. Therefore, he was not necessarily the best choice for as many minutes as he played based on the goal of maximizing the team output with the roster as constructed in 2013-14. In that instance, both sides would be "right".
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Not necessarily. Option 3 is that the roster makeup of this year's team is completely different and the need to apply full-court pressure and play 4-guard lineups at times might play better to Derrick's strengths.
An argument can certainly be made that while Derrick may have been a better overall player (in practice, one on one, "playing to the scouting report", wherever) than Dawson last year, but his presence negatively affected others (like Davante) and overall team production offensively. Therefore, he was not necessarily the best choice for as many minutes as he played based on the goal of maximizing the team output with the roster as constructed in 2013-14. In that instance, both sides would be "right".
A few things I know for sure:
Wojo will give Derrick every chance to be the starter (due to senior status, high character) and the similarities between Derrick and Wojo (as a player) - good character, good defenders, challenged offensively - and Wojo was challenged by Coach K in the offseason of his Junior year - that very likely a change was going to get made at the starting PG position...and Wojo worked his ass off that summer to prove he was worthy of a starting role....and he rewarded Coach K with an improved game.
Wojo will not play Derrick 30+ minutes game after game if we are losing, and teams aren't guarding him within 5 feet on the perimeter...and our offense flounders game after game after game as a result.
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A few things I know for sure:
Wojo will give Derrick every chance to be the starter (due to senior status, high character) and the similarities between Derrick and Wojo (as a player) - good character, good defenders, challenged offensively - and Wojo was challenged by Coach K in the offseason of his Junior year - that very likely a change was going to get made at the starting PG position...and Wojo worked his ass off that summer to prove he was worthy of a starting role....and he rewarded Coach K with an improved game.
Wojo will not play Derrick 30+ minutes game after game if we are losing, and teams aren't guarding him within 5 feet on the perimeter...and our offense flounders game after game after game as a result.
Agree completely.
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A few things I know for sure:
Wojo will give Derrick every chance to be the starter (due to senior status, high character) and the similarities between Derrick and Wojo (as a player) - good character, good defenders, challenged offensively - and Wojo was challenged by Coach K in the offseason of his Junior year - that very likely a change was going to get made at the starting PG position...and Wojo worked his ass off that summer to prove he was worthy of a starting role....and he rewarded Coach K with an improved game.
Wojo will not play Derrick 30+ minutes game after game if we are losing, and teams aren't guarding him within 5 feet on the perimeter...and our offense flounders game after game after game as a result.
Forgive me if my memory is off, but weren't you touting the Carlino signing earlier as a clear indicator that Wojo wasn't confident in Derrick?
Anyways, if it was you, has something changed your opinion?
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He wasn't shown the door. He found his own door, even opened it. The university merely didn't bend over backwards (or even really bend at all) to keep him from walking through the door. On to the next one!
Oh yeah--he was shown the door--that is why he is gone. It is elementary, Watson.
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A few things I know for sure:
Wojo will give Derrick every chance to be the starter (due to senior status, high character) and the similarities between Derrick and Wojo (as a player) - good character, good defenders, challenged offensively - and Wojo was challenged by Coach K in the offseason of his Junior year - that very likely a change was going to get made at the starting PG position...and Wojo worked his ass off that summer to prove he was worthy of a starting role....and he rewarded Coach K with an improved game.
Wojo will not play Derrick 30+ minutes game after game if we are losing, and teams aren't guarding him within 5 feet on the perimeter...and our offense flounders game after game after game as a result.
Yup. derrick is Wojo II, or is it Wojo's Mini Me?
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Oh yeah--he was shown the door--that is why he is gone. It is elementary, Watson.
By that logic, Al was "shown the door" after 1977.
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Not necessarily. Option 3 is that the roster makeup of this year's team is completely different and the need to apply full-court pressure and play 4-guard lineups at times might play better to Derrick's strengths.
An argument can certainly be made that while Derrick may have been a better overall player (in practice, one on one, "playing to the scouting report", wherever) than Dawson last year, but his presence negatively affected others (like Davante) and overall team production offensively. Therefore, he was not necessarily the best choice for as many minutes as he played based on the goal of maximizing the team output with the roster as constructed in 2013-14. In that instance, both sides would be "right".
I don't disagree, but to say that your argument is more reasonable and nuanced than what Ners was claiming last year would be one very large understatement.
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I don't disagree, but to say that your argument is more reasonable and nuanced than what Ners was claiming last year would be one very large understatement.
Pretty sure I stated MULTIPLE times that the domino effect of Derrick's limitations could not be quantified easily, but no doubt were hurting the team as a whole - in addition to what the quantifiable stats reflected. That was a huge point I made all last season...playing 4 on 5 is next to impossible to win..and the season proved that out. And, it was an absolute true statement Buzz did make - That MU was playing 4 on 5 - why not at least see how the whole team performs if it had a PG that needed to be defended everywhere on the court?? Yet he refused for all but one game last season.
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Forgive me if my memory is off, but weren't you touting the Carlino signing earlier as a clear indicator that Wojo wasn't confident in Derrick?
Anyways, if it was you, has something changed your opinion?
Yes...I did say that...and I don't think it is false at all. If Derrick shows no improvement whatsoever over last year, we won't be handcuffed in that we will have a veteran guard who's shown he can play at the high D-1 level. Of course had Buzz played Dawson more last season, we would have gotten a better handle on what he could/couldn't do.
Question for you: If you were Wojo and watched tape of MU last season, would you have been confident in Derrick??
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Wojo will not play Derrick 30+ minutes game after game if we are losing
If we had Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available last year Buzz wouldn't have either.
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If we had Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available last year Buzz wouldn't have either.
Fixed.
Burton could only get 12 a game...and he was a hell of a lot more advanced than Duane...and it was noted by Buzz and others that Duane wasn't exactly lighting it up prior to his injury.
Can Buzz do anything wrong in your world Lenny?! Do you not feel Buzz should have played Mayo and Burton A LOT more than he did last season? Did Juan Anderson EVER produce anything close to what Burton did in his limited minutes? On a team with Derrick and Jake playing 30+ minutes and both being incredibly challenged offensively, does it not make sense to at least surround them with more offensively talented players such as Mayo and Burton as opposed to Juan and Otule??
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Yes...I did say that...and I don't think it is false at all. If Derrick shows no improvement whatsoever over last year, we won't be handcuffed in that we will have a veteran guard who's shown he can play at the high D-1 level. Of course had Buzz played Dawson more last season, we would have gotten a better handle on what he could/couldn't do.
Question for you: If you were Wojo and watched tape of MU last season, would you have been confident in Derrick??
Well, I would've taken Carlino because it's essentially a "free" player. MU had a scholly, so I would use it on a guy that could help immediately. Smart play by Wojo.
But, I also didn't see it as some sort of indictment on Derrick.
Am I confident in Derrick? Well, I like Derrick more than most. I think he's a solid 20mpg player, but he has some limitations the prevent him from being a really good 30mpg PG.
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Well, I would've taken Carlino because it's essentially a "free" player. MU had a scholly, so I would use it on a guy that could help immediately. Smart play by Wojo.
But, I also didn't see it as some sort of indictment on Derrick.
Am I confident in Derrick? Well, I like Derrick more than most. I think he's a solid 20mpg player, but he has some limitations the prevent him from being a really good 30mpg PG.
Okay. Agree to disagree.
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By that logic, Al was "shown the door" after 1977.
Sultan--no other way to say it---you are clueless. Al opened the door. If you believe that Buzz was not shown the door, that is your logic. He was given the word, and flew the coop. Al was not. Your logic, as Spock would say "is illogical" But keep up with the battle Sultan. I mean why bother? You are the original thinker and the rest of us are country bumpkins looking for the turnip truck, cannot compute.
Keep up supporting Buzz--that is how you roll.
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Sultan--no other way to say it---you are clueless. Al opened the door. If you believe that Buzz was not shown the door, that is your logic. He was given the word, and flew the coop. Al was not. Your logic, as Spock would say "is illogical" But keep up with the battle Sultan. I mean why bother? You are the original thinker and the rest of us are country bumpkins looking for the turnip truck, cannot compute.
He was not shown the door. Multiple people in this thread have stated as such. Other people I know have pretty much backed up what Ners said. He wore out his welcome and leadership didn't go out of its way to keep him happy.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
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A few things I know for sure:
Wojo will give Derrick every chance to be the starter (due to senior status, high character) and the similarities between Derrick and Wojo (as a player) - good character, good defenders, challenged offensively - and Wojo was challenged by Coach K in the offseason of his Junior year - that very likely a change was going to get made at the starting PG position...and Wojo worked his ass off that summer to prove he was worthy of a starting role....and he rewarded Coach K with an improved game.
Wojo will not play Derrick 30+ minutes game after game if we are losing, and teams aren't guarding him within 5 feet on the perimeter...and our offense flounders game after game after game as a result.
Has it been confirmed that Derrick is starting this year?
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Has it been confirmed that Derrick is starting this year?
Not been publicly stated, yet all signs point toward it - which isn't incredibly surprising - given he's a senior, a captain, the incumbent, and a high character kid. I will be surprised if Derrick is playing more than 15-20 minutes come conference play - and if that is the case it will be the result of Derrick showing he's a threat on the offensive end..and is playing such incredible defense and turning the opposition over frequently to where he earns 20+. I have no doubt if its more of the same as we saw last season, he will not be playing 15+
From everything I've heard - Wojo sees both Duane and Dawson as combo guards, with Dawson being more of a 2/3 candidate and Duane a 1/2 candidate. Dawson is one of the stronger players physically (after Derrick and Burton) on the team to where the 3 could be an option.
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I think all of the guards seem to be viewed as combo guards. We will see how this system works, but I think we will see up to as many as four guards bring the ball up at different times.
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Sultan--no other way to say it---you are clueless. Al opened the door. If you believe that Buzz was not shown the door, that is your logic. He was given the word, and flew the coop. Al was not. Your logic, as Spock would say "is illogical" But keep up with the battle Sultan. I mean why bother? You are the original thinker and the rest of us are country bumpkins looking for the turnip truck, cannot compute.
Keep up supporting Buzz--that is how you roll.
If Buzz wanted to stay (without giving any additional demands to the administration) he would have been back. He said "give me more." The university said "no." Buzz said "Virginia Tech will give me what I want." University responded "okay go."
If your spouse threatens to cheat on you multiple times, eventually you will tell them to go ahead and do it. It's then up to them if they go through with it.
If that matches you definition of "was shown the door" than yes that's correct. But if you were implying that he was given a "quit or be fired" ultimatum, you are mistaken.
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Agree with everything here except the conclusion that Dawson was a band aid SOLUTION. Much more often than not he was anything but.
He was a solution the one game he was given more than a few trips down the court and then yanked.
And remember - I'm not a Buzz hater and not one of the folks who is sure that Dawson can play.
I do some coaching, too, and if I have a situation that simply isn't working, I try something else. It might not succeed, either, but at least I can say I tried.
It doesn't seem to be an outrageous notion. Coaches adapt all the time, at least the good ones.
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The problem is with this line of thinking is that we only see the games...what...10-15% of what actually goes on in a basketball program?
I think Buzz knew, given what he saw at practice and limited game time, that both Dawson and JJJ would struggle with more playing time.
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He was a solution the one game he was given more than a few trips down the court and then yanked.
And remember - I'm not a Buzz hater and not one of the folks who is sure that Dawson can play.
I do some coaching, too, and if I have a situation that simply isn't working, I try something else. It might not succeed, either, but at least I can say I tried.
It doesn't seem to be an outrageous notion. Coaches adapt all the time, at least the good ones.
Again, you're not wrong, but we're sitting here with hindsight.
I'm sure Buzz thought he could stick with his guys and get it to work.
At various points in Buzz's career, fans have wanted to replace Junior, Vander and Lockett. Buzz stuck with those players, and Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty. Shouldn't he have replaced Trent before? What about playing Junior when Junior had a stretch of terrible games (could barely get it across 1/2 court).
Hell, even after Todd Mayo was awful as a frosh, Buzz gave him a chance in March and it paid off.
So, while I agree that smart coaches adapt, smart coaches all do what they think is best. In the past, Buzz had stuck with his guys and it worked. Remember all of the "us vs the world" press conferences? "They don't think JUCO guys deserve to be here." "Nobody thinks we can shoot." etc. etc.
It had worked in the past. It didn't work this time. That's on Buzz... BUT, that doesn't mean that at the time the alternate option was a better solution. Different doesn't always mean "better". It just means "different".
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Again, you're not wrong, but we're sitting here with hindsight.
I'm sure Buzz thought he could stick with his guys and get it to work.
At various points in Buzz's career, fans have wanted to replace Junior, Vander and Lockett. Buzz stuck with those players, and Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty. Shouldn't he have replaced Trent before? What about playing Junior when Junior had a stretch of terrible games (could barely get it across 1/2 court).
Hell, even after Todd Mayo was awful as a frosh, Buzz gave him a chance in March and it paid off.
So, while I agree that smart coaches adapt, smart coaches all do what they think is best. In the past, Buzz had stuck with his guys and it worked. Remember all of the "us vs the world" press conferences? "They don't think JUCO guys deserve to be here." "Nobody thinks we can shoot." etc. etc.
It had worked in the past. It didn't work this time. That's on Buzz... BUT, that doesn't mean that at the time the alternate option was a better solution. Different doesn't always mean "better". It just means "different".
All in all a good post. Yet, Lockett had skins on the wall as a D-1 player, and he was a transfer senior - hard to sit a guy like that, as he at least has shown he can do it at this level.
Mayo should good potential early in his freshman year, to where Buzz should have played him through the rut of his freshman season.
Vander? Vander had to ask Buzz to stop playing him so much as a freshman as his confidence was eroding in himself after futile drive and futile drive and failed FG attempt. I suspect Derrick's confidence eroded as the season wore on last year as well, given the lack of progress in his game.
Junior? Think he might be the most valid parallel in that he was frustrating offensively, hadn't shown a whole lot at the D-1 level...yet his alternative was Derrick Wilson...a guy who had shown to be a good defender but absolutely nothing else beyond that.
Buzz simply didn't give Dawson, JJJ or Burton a fair shot at showing what they could do - which is fine, so long as the vets in front of them were producing - yet it is hard to argue that the production of Derrick, Jake and Juan was so incredible that we ran a great risk of ruining our season if Buzz tried the freshman for a few games...just to get a baseline as to how things would go. At least get the diagnostic (when it is clear after 15-20 games your vets aren't going to win you any games over Top 50 teams.)
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He was not shown the door. Multiple people in this thread have stated as such. Other people I know have pretty much backed up what Ners said. He wore out his welcome and leadership didn't go out of its way to keep him happy.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
Sultan is absolutely correct.
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All in all a good post. Yet, Lockett had skins on the wall as a D-1 player, and he was a transfer senior - hard to sit a guy like that, as he at least has shown he can do it at this level.
Mayo should good potential early in his freshman year, to where Buzz should have played him through the rut of his freshman season.
Vander? Vander had to ask Buzz to stop playing him so much as a freshman as his confidence was eroding in himself after futile drive and futile drive and failed FG attempt. I suspect Derrick's confidence eroded as the season wore on last year as well, given the lack of progress in his game.
Junior? Think he might be the most valid parallel in that he was frustrating offensively, hadn't shown a whole lot at the D-1 level...yet his alternative was Derrick Wilson...a guy who had shown to be a good defender but absolutely nothing else beyond that.
Buzz simply didn't give Dawson, JJJ or Burton a fair shot at showing what they could do - which is fine, so long as the vets in front of them were producing - yet it is hard to argue that the production of Derrick, Jake and Juan was so incredible that we ran a great risk of ruining our season if Buzz tried the freshman for a few games...just to get a baseline as to how things would go. At least get the diagnostic (when it is clear after 15-20 games your vets aren't going to win you any games over Top 50 teams.)
I'm not trying to draw exact parallels, just showing that the thought process was similar to previous seasons. We all cheered when it worked. Hard to be SUPER MAD when it didn't.
Also, if Lockett has "skins on the wall", doesn't Buzz get the same benefit? We've seen him make the right moves in the past.
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He was not shown the door. Multiple people in this thread have stated as such. Other people I know have pretty much backed up what Ners said. He wore out his welcome and leadership didn't go out of its way to keep him happy.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
Simply---he wore out his welcome, was told so (shown the door). Your own statement make my case. And simply, rarely do you know what you are talking about--simply.
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Simply---he wore out his welcome, was told so (shown the door). Your own statement make my case. And simply, rarely do you know what you are talking about--simply.
Again, he could have stayed if he wanted to. He didn't want to. MU didn't try to placate him.
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I'm not trying to draw exact parallels, just showing that the thought process was similar to previous seasons. We all cheered when it worked. Hard to be SUPER MAD when it didn't.
Also, if Lockett has "skins on the wall", doesn't Buzz get the same benefit? We've seen him make the right moves in the past.
That's fair. Yet, for me, and lets not forget I was a HUGE Buzz fan and supporter - it was so incredibly clear that the team wasn't going to be able to win with the lineup he chose to play - it just blew my mind that he felt he could make that work. Even more mind blowing when he had guys on the bench who were very talented and weren't getting max minutes: Mayo and Burton (at minimum)..Dawson and JJJ to a lesser extent.
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Again, you're not wrong, but we're sitting here with hindsight.
I'm sure Buzz thought he could stick with his guys and get it to work.
At various points in Buzz's career, fans have wanted to replace Junior, Vander and Lockett. Buzz stuck with those players, and Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty. Shouldn't he have replaced Trent before? What about playing Junior when Junior had a stretch of terrible games (could barely get it across 1/2 court).
Hell, even after Todd Mayo was awful as a frosh, Buzz gave him a chance in March and it paid off.
So, while I agree that smart coaches adapt, smart coaches all do what they think is best. In the past, Buzz had stuck with his guys and it worked. Remember all of the "us vs the world" press conferences? "They don't think JUCO guys deserve to be here." "Nobody thinks we can shoot." etc. etc.
It had worked in the past. It didn't work this time. That's on Buzz... BUT, that doesn't mean that at the time the alternate option was a better solution. Different doesn't always mean "better". It just means "different".
OK, we are mostly in agreement.
But do remember that Buzz himself repeatedly said it wasn't working. He repeatedly said it was like playing 4-on-5. He had the benefit of his own hindsight yet he usually chose not to even think about doing something that might change the future.
Oh well ... I'm exhausted by this discussion. I was glad we had Buzz as a coach though I don't think he did a good job last season.
If you or anybody else wants the last word on this, that's fine by me. I'm done on this topic for now. I'll wait until there's a topic about the Ellenson brothers and Ners turns it into a Derrick-vs-Dawson diatribe!
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OK, we are mostly in agreement.
But do remember that Buzz himself repeatedly said it wasn't working. He repeatedly said it was like playing 4-on-5. He had the benefit of his own hindsight yet he usually chose not to even think about doing something that might change the future.
Oh well ... I'm exhausted by this discussion. I was glad we had Buzz as a coach though I don't think he did a good job last season.
If you or anybody else wants the last word on this, that's fine by me. I'm done on this topic for now. I'll wait until there's a topic about the Ellenson brothers and Ners turns it into a Derrick-vs-Dawson diatribe!
Buzz needed to do a better job last season. I think it's fair to say that.
But, I also don't think it's as simple as some people are making it out to be.
"He should've played (insert)!"
We screamed that same thing in other seasons, and it turns out that Buzz was right. Last season, he wasn't.
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The problem is with this line of thinking is that we only see the games...what...10-15% of what actually goes on in a basketball program?
I think Buzz knew, given what he saw at practice and limited game time, that both Dawson and JJJ would struggle with more playing time.
Sounds reasonable..... Until you consider that Derrick and Jake struggled with more playing time.
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The problem is with this line of thinking is that we only see the games...what...10-15% of what actually goes on in a basketball program?
I think Buzz knew, given what he saw at practice and limited game time, that both Dawson and JJJ would struggle with more playing time.
Al use to say that "You did not know how good a player was until he plays under the big tent". Some players are practice players, some players are game players, some players are neither and some are both. I wonder if Dawson is the rare type of player that is actually better in a game than he is in practice. I thought of this when I was watching him at this year's MU Madness and he did virtually nothing, which surprised me.
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Buzz needed to do a better job last season. I think it's fair to say that.
But, I also don't think it's as simple as some people are making it out to be.
"He should've played (insert)!"
We screamed that same thing in other seasons, and it turns out that Buzz was right. Last season, he wasn't.
We'll never know if Buzz was right last season or not. 17-15 could have been 12-20, close losses could have been blowouts. We'll never know, but I'm a percentage guy. If the armchair quarterbacks and second guessed were consistently wrong and the coach was consistently right for several years I think chances are last year was no different.
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We'll never know if Buzz was right last season or not. 17-15 could have been 12-20, close losses could have been blowouts. We'll never know, but I'm a percentage guy. If the armchair quarterbacks and second guessed were consistently wrong and the coach was consistently right for several years I think chances are last year was no different.
Really? You don't think 7% from the 3 point line, with two makes in an entire career through the end of one's junior year and a 45% career FT shooting percentage, along with not needing to be guarded within 5 feet on the perimeter don't decrease your "percentages" of winning? LOL
As for my second guessing of Buzz in past years, there was virtually zero - other than Vander shouldn't have been starting or playing much at all as a freshman...while Gardner/Mayo was deserving of a few more minutes Beyond that? Never second guessed him on Lockett, Cadougan, or others.
Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan. (And I believe Buzz is too intelligent and good of coach to genuinely believe he could win with that lineup, and given his departure at the immediate end of last season, is why I don't think it is a "conspiracy" that he was giving MU admin a Big F You on his way out the door...and playing the high character kids/traditional path to MU kids)
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Really? You don't think 7% from the 3 point line, with two makes in an entire career through the end of one's junior year and a 45% career FT shooting percentage, along with not needing to be guarded within 5 feet on the perimeter don't decrease your "percentages" of winning? LOL
As for my second guessing of Buzz in past years, there was virtually zero - other than Vander shouldn't have been starting or playing much at all as a freshman...while Gardner/Mayo was deserving of a few more minutes Beyond that? Never second guessed him on Lockett, Cadougan, or others.
Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan. (And I believe Buzz is too intelligent and good of coach to genuinely believe he could win with that lineup, and given his departure at the immediate end of last season, is why I don't think it is a "conspiracy" that he was giving MU admin a Big F You on his way out the door...and playing the high character kids/traditional path to MU kids)
Yes, really. And not percentages that are cherry picked. I watched Derrick and John's OVERALL play last year and concluded that Derrick deserved to play more than John. Your conclusion was that only an idiot or a guy who was intentionally throwing games could say or do that. I thought that when Wojo watched the tape and saw them in practice he would agree with me. You laughed, mocked me and said no way. Buzz was the worst coach ever, Wojo wouldn't/couldn't be that stupid. Fast forward 6 months - Wojo names Derrick captain and will (barring injury) play him solid minutes, even with newbies Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available. John looks like the last guard off the bench and may be moved to the 2/3 because HE CAN'T PLAY THE POINT. But Buzz is an idiot, Wojo's an idiot and I'm an idiot. Because you say so. Fine, this percentage guy (or idiot, take your pick) will let you out of our wager for, say, 475. Interested?
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Al use to say that "You did not know how good a player was until he plays under the big tent". Some players are practice players, some players are game players, some players are neither and some are both. I wonder if Dawson is the rare type of player that is actually better in a game than he is in practice. I thought of this when I was watching him at this year's MU Madness and he did virtually nothing, which surprised me.
Why? Outside of Georgetown he didn't do anything last year.
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Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan.
I'm sorry but this is really the height of hyperbolic stupidity. The worst coaching performance in 30 years? Because he wouldn't play John Dawson or JJJ?
Cmon. You are smarter than this. You can disagree with Buzz but it isn't completely unheard of for a coach to go with experience over highly rated, but seemingly over matched talent.
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I'm sorry but this is really the height of hyperbolic stupidity. The worst coaching performance in 30 years? Because he wouldn't play John Dawson or JJJ?
Cmon. You are smarter than this. You can disagree with Buzz but it isn't completely unheard of for a coach to go with experience over highly rated, but seemingly over matched talent.
Hell, Dawson wasn't even highly rated.
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The reason is that no coaches play freshmen less than Buzz.
Burton averaged:
Year 12.6
NC 14.5
C 11.3
1st half Conference 11.1
2nd half Conference 11.4
Burton played less at the end of the year than he did at the beginning of the year, and there was virtually no difference between how much Burton played the first 9 games of conference play and the last 10 games of conference play.
Also, for the "Buzz was goofy with his patterns" crowd, Burton's PT was really inconsistent. Lots of games with 6 min or less. Lots of games with 17+ min.
Burton averaged 6.5 less MPG than the next lowest player selected to the All-Rookie team. 12.6 MPG, with 19.1 MPG being the next lowest (52% more minutes), and the rest 21.4 MPG or more. Possibly a greater disparity in conference play. At least nine other coaches could identify an impact player, despite seeing him play so little.
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Yes, really. And not percentages that are cherry picked. I watched Derrick and John's OVERALL play last year and concluded that Derrick deserved to play more than John. Your conclusion was that only an idiot or a guy who was intentionally throwing games could say or do that. I thought that when Wojo watched the tape and saw them in practice he would agree with me. You laughed, mocked me and said no way. Buzz was the worst coach ever, Wojo wouldn't/couldn't be that stupid. Fast forward 6 months - Wojo names Derrick captain and will (barring injury) play him solid minutes, even with newbies Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available. John looks like the last guard off the bench and may be moved to the 2/3 because HE CAN'T PLAY THE POINT. But Buzz is an idiot, Wojo's an idiot and I'm an idiot. Because you say so. Fine, this percentage guy (or idiot, take your pick) will let you out of our wager for, say, 475. Interested?
Who cares if he was named captain? That to me says he's a respected leader, doesn't mean he can play at the high D1 level. Lots of players who aren't very good get named captain for a variety of reasons. Derrick had all last year to prove what he could do and he was a complete disaster. If he plays solid minutes again this year, I am going to have a meltdown and I would expect another terrible year. He is not capable of playing meaningful minutes for a team hoping to make the tournament. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would want to relive the nightmare from last year all over again.
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Again, he could have stayed if he wanted to. He didn't want to. MU didn't try to placate him.
MU knew before he left that he was leaving. It's like having a girlfriend you don't like anymore but you haven't broken up with her. She finally says she may want to see other people and you pull out a phone book with a list of numbers to get her started on her way.
#2 coach in MU history wasn't worth keeping around, and when you have such strong suitors like Va Tech, why even bother.
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Al use to say that "You did not know how good a player was until he plays under the big tent". Some players are practice players, some players are game players, some players are neither and some are both. I wonder if Dawson is the rare type of player that is actually better in a game than he is in practice. I thought of this when I was watching him at this year's MU Madness and he did virtually nothing, which surprised me.
When asked to assess prospects, Lou Piniella used to say, "We'll see how he does when the lights come on."
More often than not -- especially when he was talking about a young Cub -- the prospect couldn't handle the pressure.
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Who cares if he was named captain? That to me says he's a respected leader, doesn't mean he can play at the high D1 level. Lots of players who aren't very good get named captain for a variety of reasons. Derrick had all last year to prove what he could do and he was a complete disaster. If he plays solid minutes again this year, I am going to have a meltdown and I would expect another terrible year. He is not capable of playing meaningful minutes for a team hoping to make the tournament. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would want to relive the nightmare from last year all over again.
What do you define as solid minutes? Say 13.1mpg?
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MU knew before he left that he was leaving. It's like having a girlfriend you don't like anymore but you haven't broken up with her. She finally says she may want to see other people and you pull out a phone book with a list of numbers to get her started on her way.
#2 coach in MU history wasn't worth keeping around, and when you have such strong suitors like Va Tech, why even bother.
I believe his name has been associated with considerably stronger suitors and we managed to keep him. It's not like he said no to say SMU without us desperately trying to keep him and yes to VT in the same situation.
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Yes, really. And not percentages that are cherry picked. I watched Derrick and John's OVERALL play last year and concluded that Derrick deserved to play more than John. Your conclusion was that only an idiot or a guy who was intentionally throwing games could say or do that. I thought that when Wojo watched the tape and saw them in practice he would agree with me. You laughed, mocked me and said no way. Buzz was the worst coach ever, Wojo wouldn't/couldn't be that stupid. Fast forward 6 months - Wojo names Derrick captain and will (barring injury) play him solid minutes, even with newbies Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available. John looks like the last guard off the bench and may be moved to the 2/3 because HE CAN'T PLAY THE POINT. But Buzz is an idiot, Wojo's an idiot and I'm an idiot. Because you say so. Fine, this percentage guy (or idiot, take your pick) will let you out of our wager for, say, 475. Interested?
LOL - Cherry picked stats?? Those aren't cherry picked. They are reality. As was the reality that your boy, Buzz, said the team was playing 4 on 5 as a result. As for Dawson, he may be moved to the 2 or 3..because he CAN SHOOT THE BALL. Derrick? There's only 1 spot for him, and that sure as hell isn't at a shooting guard position. Hell PG is a HUGE stretch for Derrick...he's not a playmaker, can't break a defender down off the dribble, and actually isn't very strong with the ball against tight ball pressure. He'll get his chance, but if he plays anything like last year...I guaran-god-damn tee you he won't be getting 30 minutes a game.
And if I were you, I wouldn't make judgments on a basketball player who is getting radically inconsistent minutes, yet with the minutes he does get, most of them are in 2 to 3 minute segments. I can form plenty of judgments on a guy who got 30 minutes a game night in, night out...and the proof is in the "production." It was AWFUL. It won't take much at all for Derrick to improve on last year's campaign...hopefully his hard work pays off for him. To improve on the 3 point shooting percentage and FT percentage shouldn't take much...the key will be if he can stick wide open perimeter jump shots, is willing to take them, and make at least 35% of them to prove he needs to be defended by the opposition.
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I'm sorry but this is really the height of hyperbolic stupidity. The worst coaching performance in 30 years? Because he wouldn't play John Dawson or JJJ?
Cmon. You are smarter than this. You can disagree with Buzz but it isn't completely unheard of for a coach to go with experience over highly rated, but seemingly over matched talent.
No..it really isn't hyperbole...and many other guys who have played the game and been close to it felt the exact same. It was the worst, because Buzz refused to even try the alternatives at the two positions that were clearly the achilles heel on the team - yet the ONE game he deviated and tried the alternative - he got good results, and the player played a key role in getting the win. Thereafter? The player got scraps, and meanwhile the vet in front of him continued to flounder, and flounder big time.
Beyond that, the crazy substitutions, no clearly defined roles, having to resort to construction paper cards to get the guys to know what defense they were in - all kinds of chaos last season. Not to mention he totally, and completely lost the team.
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We'll never know if Buzz was right last season or not. 17-15 could have been 12-20, close losses could have been blowouts. We'll never know, but I'm a percentage guy. If the armchair quarterbacks and second guessed were consistently wrong and the coach was consistently right for several years I think chances are last year was no different.
Big picture: Buzz received bad play from both guard positions.
I actually like Derrick and Jake, but they needed to be mixed and matched to maximize their abilities.
By the time Feb. hit, Buzz did not have options (which you and I agree on)... but I think it's fair to say that Buzz needed to find SOMETHING to help those guys earlier in the year. As soon as Du Wilson went down, Buzz needed to find some way to keep Derrick's minutes down.
Again, I'm not saying "Play (insert guy) instead of (insert guy)", I'm saying from a big picture perspective, trotting Derrick out there for 30+MPG wasn't a good long term plan. Buzz should have known that back in Oct., and figured out a way to help Derrick.
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Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan.
Dude, we were all finding common ground, and then you trot out with this statement?
C'mon.
Don't do that.
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Just curious given the amount of pages in this thread: has JJJ broken out yet?
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LOL - Cherry picked stats?? Those aren't cherry picked. They are reality. As was the reality that your boy, Buzz, said the team was playing 4 on 5 as a result. As for Dawson, he may be moved to the 2 or 3..because he CAN SHOOT THE BALL.
Dawson was a worse offensive player than Derrick was last year.
Dawson OR: 85.2
Derrick OR: 96.0
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No..it really isn't hyperbole...and many other guys who have played the game and been close to it felt the exact same. It was the worst, because Buzz refused to even try the alternatives at the two positions that were clearly the achilles heel on the team - yet the ONE game he deviated and tried the alternative - he got good results, and the player played a key role in getting the win. Thereafter? The player got scraps, and meanwhile the vet in front of him continued to flounder, and flounder big time.
Beyond that, the crazy substitutions, no clearly defined roles, having to resort to construction paper cards to get the guys to know what defense they were in - all kinds of chaos last season. Not to mention he totally, and completely lost the team.
I have no desire to join you in your craziness again this year. "Worst coaching performance in 30 years?" Complete hyperbolic nonsense.
And you are seriously bringing up the crazy substitutions *again* when you were shown to be objectively wrong about his substitution patterns from years prior?
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Dawson was a worse offensive player than Derrick was last year.
Dawson OR: 85.2
Derrick OR: 96.0
And as was pointed out to you and the other 5 Derrick lovers, Pomroy doesn't even calculate an O-Rating for a player who plays less that 10 minutes in a game...in the 24 games Dawson did play he averaged 10.2 minutes....BARELY over the threshold for which Pomroy will assign an O-Rating. Dawson played more than 10 minutes in 11 games last year. And if you look at his O-Rating in games he played more than 12 minutes..his O-Rating was ~98. I did all the math on it last year, and am not going to do it all over again. The point is one guy is flat out a 96 O-Rating with consistent minutes, 30+ every damn night....and that's what he is...the other guy...there is virtually no statistical relevance to his O-rating as his playing time was so minimal - yet the one game he gets a fair chance, 30 minutes...he plays very well..
I have no desire to join you in your craziness again this year. "Worst coaching performance in 30 years?" Complete hyperbolic nonsense.
And you are seriously bringing up the crazy substitutions *again* when you were shown to be objectively wrong about his substitution patterns from years prior?
It is not complete hyperbolic nonsense. For a team that was picked to win its conference...with more returning letterwinners on it, with a few talented freshman - to miss the NIT?? Yea, that was a pretty big bomb we had last year - and Buzz refused to make the 2 obvious adjustments that team needed to improve.
The problem with Buzz's subbing, was he was still subbing a crap ton, as you pointed out - yet he wouldn't sub out the 2 culprits!! Which is what made it even more awful. For the last time...how do you expect to win with a lineup of Derrick and Jake getting max minutes together????????????
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And as was pointed out to you and the other 5 Derrick lovers, Pomroy doesn't even calculate an O-Rating for a player who plays less that 10 minutes in a game...in the 24 games Dawson did play he averaged 10.2 minutes....BARELY over the threshold for which Pomroy will assign an O-Rating. Dawson played more than 10 minutes in 11 games last year. And if you look at his O-Rating in games he played more than 12 minutes..his O-Rating was ~98. I did all the math on it last year, and am not going to do it all over again. The point is one guy is flat out a 96 O-Rating with consistent minutes, 30+ every damn night....and that's what he is...the other guy...there is virtually no statistical relevance to his O-rating as his playing time was so minimal - yet the one game he gets a fair chance, 30 minutes...he plays very well..
In other words, you are cherry picking stats. Using only those to support your argument, and dumping on those that don't.
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It is not complete hyperbolic nonsense. For a team that was picked to win its conference...with more returning letterwinners on it, with a few talented freshman - to miss the NIT?? Yea, that was a pretty big bomb we had last year - and Buzz refused to make the 2 obvious adjustments that team needed to improve.
I'm not arguing he coached well. I never have. I am arguing that it wasn't the "worst coaching performance in 30 years."
THAT is hyperbolic nonsense. Anybody who had to witness some of Bob Dukiet's performances would show that it wasn't even the worst Marquette coaching performance over the past 30 years.
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It is not complete hyperbolic nonsense. For a team that was picked to win its conference...with more returning letterwinners on it, with a few talented freshman - to miss the NIT?? Yea, that was a pretty big bomb we had last year - and Buzz refused to make the 2 obvious adjustments that team needed to improve.
What were the two obvious adjustments again?
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I'm not arguing he coached well. I never have. I am arguing that it wasn't the "worst coaching performance in 30 years."
THAT is hyperbolic nonsense. Anybody who had to witness some of Bob Dukiet's performances would show that it wasn't even the worst Marquette coaching performance over the past 30 years.
So then you should be willing to say "Buzz coached poorly".
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Just curious given the amount of pages in this thread: has JJJ broken out yet?
Sometimes I click on the last page of a multi-page thread that I haven't read any of. That last page is 99% one of two things:
1) Ners arguing with anyone and everyone about Derrick vs Dawson
2) Some kind of pissing match between Chico's and several others
Glad to see this is still on target
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So then you should be willing to say "Buzz coached poorly".
I've said it before. He did a lot of things poorly last year. The biggest problem was the lack of quality depth, and his reliance on a former walk on and a offensively deficient player at point guard. I also think Ners is spot on that Deonte should have gotten much more playing time.
But JJJ and John Dawson were *not* answers IMO. Todd could have been an answer, but he was a complete f*ck up. (Again, Buzz is the one that kept him around.)
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I'm not arguing he coached well. I never have. I am arguing that it wasn't the "worst coaching performance in 30 years."
THAT is hyperbolic nonsense. Anybody who had to witness some of Bob Dukiet's performances would show that it wasn't even the worst Marquette coaching performance over the past 30 years.
Dukiet was awful, no one doubts that - the "talent" level he had was awful as well. Buzz was in his 6th year on the job, had all of his guys, and had established himself. We were Top 20 going into the year, fellow coaches in Big East saw us as being clear favorite to win the conference - not only did we not win it, we weren't even close.
The awful coaching was refusing to even ATTEMPT to make changes at the 1&2 - but instead to max their minutes and play them more than any other guys on the team. NOt to mention starting them with Juan and Otule. How the F was Jamil supposed to play well surrounded with that lineup?
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What were the two obvious adjustments again?
LOL - There were actually three obvious adjustments...
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Guys, we are one week away from the exhibition game. Two weeks away from the first game. Can we bring back the Derrick/Dawson/Jake/Crazy Substitutions/Worst Coaching Performance in 30 Years moratorium? Just for one week? Then we will have plenty of new data to dissect and argue about!
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LOL - There were actually three obvious adjustments...
so what were they?
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so what were they?
Was this supposed to be in teal? Think everyone here knows what my feelings are on the obvious adjustments...
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Guys, we are one week away from the exhibition game. Two weeks away from the first game. Can we bring back the Derrick/Dawson/Jake/Crazy Substitutions/Worst Coaching Performance in 30 Years moratorium? Just for one week? Then we will have plenty of new data to dissect and argue about!
That's fine...yet the board will go pretty dead if we don't debate those topics....once the season starts of course, we'll have more topics for discussion.
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Sometimes I click on the last page of a multi-page thread that I haven't read any of. That last page is 99% one of two things:
1) Ners arguing with anyone and everyone about Derrick vs Dawson
2) Some kind of pissing match between Chico's and several others
Glad to see this is still on target
+100000000
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Sometimes I click on the last page of a multi-page thread that I haven't read any of. That last page is 99% one of two things:
1) Ners arguing with anyone and everyone about Derrick vs Dawson
2) Some kind of pissing match between Chico's and several others
Glad to see this is still on target
I believe this is now referred to as The Wade's World Law.
And, yes, I can't believe people are stilling letting themselves get sucked into the Derrick vs. Dawson "discussion".
On topic: While I'd love to see JJJ make a huge stride forward, I'm not optimistic. Hopefully I'm as wrong about this as I was about thinking Juan was due for a breakout last year moving to more of a perimeter position.
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In other words, you are cherry picking stats. Using only those to support your argument, and dumping on those that don't.
I'm pointing out there is a statistical relevance to stats that are the result of 975 minutes of playing time...and a statistical irrelevance to stats that BARELY meet the threshold to even assign an O-Rating. Dawson only played in 24 games, and of those 24, only 11 of them met the criteria to have an O-Rating assigned (where he played more than 10 minutes.)
You yourself were shocked Dawson didn't get more PT after Georgetown game - as was I believe 90% of the fanbase. Most reasonable people felt that he at least earned more than 8 minutes the next game...again..if the team were winning, improving etc...with Derrick getting 30+...fine...but it wasn't and there were no signs it was going to win if things didn't change.
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That's fine...yet the board will go pretty dead if we don't debate those topics....once the season starts of course, we'll have more topics for discussion.
Maybe you could add your season predictions to that thread
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Guys, we are one week away from the exhibition game. Two weeks away from the first game. Can we bring back the Derrick/Dawson/Jake/Crazy Substitutions/Worst Coaching Performance in 30 Years moratorium? Just for one week? Then we will have plenty of new data to dissect and argue about!
That's fine...yet the board will go pretty dead if we don't debate those topics....once the season starts of course, we'll have more topics for discussion.
9 minutes later...
I'm pointing out there is a statistical relevance to stats that are the result of 975 minutes of playing time...and a statistical irrelevance to stats that BARELY meet the threshold to even assign an O-Rating. Dawson only played in 24 games, and of those 24, only 11 of them met the criteria to have an O-Rating assigned (where he played more than 10 minutes.)
You yourself were shocked Dawson didn't get more PT after Georgetown game - as was I believe 90% of the fanbase. Most reasonable people felt that he at least earned more than 8 minutes the next game...again..if the team were winning, improving etc...with Derrick getting 30+...fine...but it wasn't and there were no signs it was going to win if things didn't change.
Sorry, just poking a little fun ;D
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LOL - Cherry picked stats?? Those aren't cherry picked. They are reality. As was the reality that your boy, Buzz, said the team was playing 4 on 5 as a result. As for Dawson, he may be moved to the 2 or 3..because he CAN SHOOT THE BALL. Derrick? There's only 1 spot for him, and that sure as hell isn't at a shooting guard position. Hell PG is a HUGE stretch for Derrick...he's not a playmaker, can't break a defender down off the dribble, and actually isn't very strong with the ball against tight ball pressure. He'll get his chance, but if he plays anything like last year...I guaran-god-damn tee you he won't be getting 30 minutes a game.
And if I were you, I wouldn't make judgments on a basketball player who is getting radically inconsistent minutes, yet with the minutes he does get, most of them are in 2 to 3 minute segments. I can form plenty of judgments on a guy who got 30 minutes a game night in, night out...and the proof is in the "production." It was AWFUL. It won't take much at all for Derrick to improve on last year's campaign...hopefully his hard work pays off for him. To improve on the 3 point shooting percentage and FT percentage shouldn't take much...the key will be if he can stick wide open perimeter jump shots, is willing to take them, and make at least 35% of them to prove he needs to be defended by the opposition.
So, to sum up your views: Derrick stinks, is a way worse basketball player than Dawson. Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows it. Buzz knew it but played Derrick ahead of Dawson because he was trying to lose. Wojo knows it, but he named Derrick captain and has him ahead of Dawson on the depth chart because - why? Not because of shooting. Derrick stinks at shooting and always will. Law of averages says he'll make a few more this year, but do you honestly think his playing time vs Dawson's hinges on whether he's 3-14 from 3 instead of 1-14? Please. So, again, why? Here's why: Wojo agrees with idiots like Buzz, me and others and disagrees with geniuses like you as to who will give his basketball team a better chance to win. Not automatically win, mind you, just a better chance. But in your world, that can't be right. Nobody who knows anything about basketball could possibly come to that conclusion. So....if he follows through and plays Derrick over Dawson he, like Buzz, is in the tank.
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So, to sum up your views: Derrick stinks, is a way worse basketball player than Dawson. Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows it. Buzz knew it but played Derrick ahead of Dawson because he was trying to lose. Wojo knows it, but he named Derrick captain and has him ahead of Dawson on the depth chart because - why? Not because of shooting. Derrick stinks at shooting and always will. Law of averages says he'll make a few more this year, but do you honestly think his playing time vs Dawson's hinges on whether he's 3-14 from 3 instead of 1-14? Please. So, again, why? Here's why: Wojo agrees with idiots like Buzz, me and others and disagrees with geniuses like you as to who will give his basketball team a better chance to win. Not automatically win, mind you, just a better chance. But in your world, that can't be right. Nobody who knows anything about basketball could possibly come to that conclusion. So....if he follows through and plays Derrick over Dawson he, like Buzz, is in the tank.
Buzz has shown an aversion to playing freshman period. The fact an incredibly talented kid like Burton could only get 12 a game is all that needs to be pointed to, to prove that out - along with Buzz's historical usage of freshman. People can say, Buzz was caught with his pants down due to Duane getting hurt - yet there is virtually NOTHING that would suggest Duane would have been given many minutes last year either - particularly when it was known he was struggling in practice.
Do I think Dawson's best position is PG? No, not necessarily - would like to see an ultra-quick player at that position..and Dawson is not that. Nor is Derrick an ultra quick PG. Yet I know Dawson is a HELL of a lot better shooter of the basketball, and that is a critical skill to have...particularly when the alternative is so devoid of that skill.
The fact Derrick is a captain is not shocking at all...what will be shocking is if he plays 30 minutes + per game this season, if the team is losing at a high rate, and Derrick is again not defended within 5 feet on the perimeter. I'm betting that the chances are high, that Derrick will not have been able to improve his shot enough, to where he has to be defended straight up and honestly, and once again teams will sag off of him and that will create lots of challenges for us offensively - and Wojo WILL adjust accordingly.
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Maybe you could add your season predictions to that thread
Where is that thread? I'll go ahead and do so - yet it is really hard to predict what will happen - as so much of the season's success/failure will be the result of how much Wojo plays Derrick/the level of improvement Derrick shows. PG is most important position on the floor, and if for some bizarre reason Wojo plays Derrick 30 and he is the same player as last year - we won't win more than 12 games.
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Buzz has shown an aversion to playing freshman period. The fact an incredibly talented kid like Burton could only get 12 a game is all that needs to be pointed to, to prove that out - along with Buzz's historical usage of freshman. People can say, Buzz was caught with his pants down due to Duane getting hurt - yet there is virtually NOTHING that would suggest Duane would have been given many minutes last year either - particularly when it was known he was struggling in practice.
Do I think Dawson's best position is PG? No, not necessarily - would like to see an ultra-quick player at that position..and Dawson is not that. Nor is Derrick an ultra quick PG. Yet I know Dawson is a HELL of a lot better shooter of the basketball, and that is a critical skill to have...particularly when the alternative is so devoid of that skill.
The fact Derrick is a captain is not shocking at all...what will be shocking is if he plays 30 minutes + per game this season, if the team is losing at a high rate, and Derrick is again not defended within 5 feet on the perimeter. I'm betting that the chances are high, that Derrick will not have been able to improve his shot enough, to where he has to be defended straight up and honestly, and once again teams will sag off of him and that will create lots of challenges for us offensively - and Wojo WILL adjust accordingly.
This is all just a bunch of gobbledygook. Of course Derrick won't play 30+ minutes. There are alternatives available this year that weren't last year. Last year, it was Derrick or Dawson. Both were sub par enough that Buzz tried Todd and Jamil, but that proved even worse. Your opinion was that anyone who would choose Derrick over Dawson was basketball stupid or trying to lose. It appears that Wojo has Derrick ahead of Dawson on this year's depth chart. Ergo, you think he's basketball stupid or trying to lose. Which?
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No..it really isn't hyperbole...and many other guys who have played the game and been close to it felt the exact same.
This is always where you lose me, Ners.
I did play the game and I coach it now, so I guess I would pass your "filter," but to cavalierly dismiss the knowledge of high-basketball-IQ people who didn't play the game is close-minded and ignorant.
It serves to refute your arguments before you even make them and paints you as a look-at-me narcissist with a superiority complex.
You didn't play in the NBA. You didn't coach in college. You played H.S. ball. I knew a lot of high-school ballers -- hell, I had several as teammates -- who had trouble spelling basketball. Get over yourself, man!
Just make your case -- one I happen to mostly agree with on the issue of last season's PG situation -- and stop qualifying it with meaningless drivel.
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This is always where you lose me, Ners.
I did play the game and I coach it now, so I guess I would pass your "filter," but to cavalierly dismiss the knowledge of high-basketball-IQ people who didn't play the game is close-minded and ignorant.
It serves to refute your arguments before you even make them and paints you as a look-at-me narcissist with a superiority complex.
You didn't play in the NBA. You didn't coach in college. You played H.S. ball. I knew a lot of high-school ballers -- hell, I had several as teammates -- who had trouble spelling basketball. Get over yourself, man!
Just make your case -- one I happen to mostly agree with on the issue of last season's PG situation -- and stop qualifying it with meaningless drivel.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3rtyerfHZ1qir45xo1_500.gif)
Completely agree. You make a lot of great points Ners. But you hurt your own cause with all the extra crap.
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This is always where you lose me, Ners.
I did play the game and I coach it now, so I guess I would pass your "filter," but to cavalierly dismiss the knowledge of high-basketball-IQ people who didn't play the game is close-minded and ignorant.
It serves to refute your arguments before you even make them and paints you as a look-at-me narcissist with a superiority complex.
You didn't play in the NBA. You didn't coach in college. You played H.S. ball. I knew a lot of high-school ballers -- hell, I had several as teammates -- who had trouble spelling basketball. Get over yourself, man!
Just make your case -- one I happen to mostly agree with on the issue of last season's PG situation -- and stop qualifying it with meaningless drivel.
When someone on multiple occasions says my take on the coaching last season was hyperbole...I'm basically being called out on my position. It wasn't an exaggeration. As for me mentioning my "credentials" I'm giving a basis for what I'm forming my opinion against - personal playing experience as well as lots of time spent around coaches and having done some coaching myself. I sat court side at every Marquette game while at MU, coached at ONeill and Deanes camps, sat 1 seat down from Mike Dunleavy and Chris Ford for 41 home Bucks games per year for 3 years while at MU...so I've seen and been a little closer to the action than many have...and when I said worst coaching performance I'd seen in 30 years I meant it.
No it doesn't take having played the game at a high level or been exposed to it at a high level frequently to allow someone to make a good point on the game - yet my exposure to the game is what it is and has been. Generally when people seek the opinions of a person in any field, they value those slightly more of someone who had a high degree of experience in the field. I've said before I'd never weigh in with any kind of passion or authority on something like band, an instrument, or sport such as wrestling which I have no experience in - and I'd put a little more credibility in with someone who has participated extensively in those endeavors of I were engaged in a discussion on such a field/sport/skill.
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So, to sum up your views: Derrick stinks, is a way worse basketball player than Dawson. Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows it. Buzz knew it but played Derrick ahead of Dawson because he was trying to lose. Wojo knows it, but he named Derrick captain and has him ahead of Dawson on the depth chart because - why? Not because of shooting. Derrick stinks at shooting and always will. Law of averages says he'll make a few more this year, but do you honestly think his playing time vs Dawson's hinges on whether he's 3-14 from 3 instead of 1-14? Please. So, again, why? Here's why: Wojo agrees with idiots like Buzz, me and others and disagrees with geniuses like you as to who will give his basketball team a better chance to win. Not automatically win, mind you, just a better chance. But in your world, that can't be right. Nobody who knows anything about basketball could possibly come to that conclusion. So....if he follows through and plays Derrick over Dawson he, like Buzz, is in the tank.
m
Man, what a rant. Nobody will ever accuse Lenny of being a Buzz butt boy, would they?
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When someone on multiple occasions says my take on the coaching last season was hyperbole...I'm basically being called out on my position. It wasn't an exaggeration. As for me mentioning my "credentials" I'm giving a basis for what I'm forming my opinion against - personal playing experience as well as lots of time spent around coaches and having done some coaching myself. I sat court side at every Marquette game while at MU, coached at ONeill and Deanes camps, sat 1 seat down from Mike Dunleavy and Chris Ford for 41 home Bucks games per year for 3 years while at MU...so I've seen and been a little closer to the action than many have...and when I said worst coaching performance I'd seen in 30 years I meant it.
No it doesn't take having played the game at a high level or been exposed to it at a high level frequently to allow someone to make a good point on the game - yet my exposure to the game is what it is and has been. Generally when people seek the opinions of a person in any field, they value those slightly more of someone who had a high degree of experience in the field. I've said before I'd never weigh in with any kind of passion or authority on something like band, an instrument, or sport such as wrestling which I have no experience in - and I'd put a little more credibility in with someone who has participated extensively in those endeavors of I were engaged in a discussion on such a field/sport/skill.
Nicely explained.
But you still might want to avoid taking every opportunity to use your experience as a hammer. Pretty much everybody with more than a few dozen posts on Scoop knows of your experience -- and also knows of your, um, let's call it "confidence" that your experience makes you more right than the rest of us.
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When someone on multiple occasions says my take on the coaching last season was hyperbole...I'm basically being called out on my position. It wasn't an exaggeration. As for me mentioning my "credentials" I'm giving a basis for what I'm forming my opinion against - personal playing experience as well as lots of time spent around coaches and having done some coaching myself. I sat court side at every Marquette game while at MU, coached at ONeill and Deanes camps, sat 1 seat down from Mike Dunleavy and Chris Ford for 41 home Bucks games per year for 3 years while at MU...so I've seen and been a little closer to the action than many have...and when I said worst coaching performance I'd seen in 30 years I meant it.
No it doesn't take having played the game at a high level or been exposed to it at a high level frequently to allow someone to make a good point on the game - yet my exposure to the game is what it is and has been. Generally when people seek the opinions of a person in any field, they value those slightly more of someone who had a high degree of experience in the field. I've said before I'd never weigh in with any kind of passion or authority on something like band, an instrument, or sport such as wrestling which I have no experience in - and I'd put a little more credibility in with someone who has participated extensively in those endeavors of I were engaged in a discussion on such a field/sport/skill.
I agree with your analysis of last years coaching . Worst I have seen as well .
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When someone on multiple occasions says my take on the coaching last season was hyperbole...I'm basically being called out on my position. It wasn't an exaggeration. As for me mentioning my "credentials" I'm giving a basis for what I'm forming my opinion against - personal playing experience as well as lots of time spent around coaches and having done some coaching myself. I sat court side at every Marquette game while at MU, coached at ONeill and Deanes camps, sat 1 seat down from Mike Dunleavy and Chris Ford for 41 home Bucks games per year for 3 years while at MU...so I've seen and been a little closer to the action than many have...and when I said worst coaching performance I'd seen in 30 years I meant it.
No it doesn't take having played the game at a high level or been exposed to it at a high level frequently to allow someone to make a good point on the game - yet my exposure to the game is what it is and has been. Generally when people seek the opinions of a person in any field, they value those slightly more of someone who had a high degree of experience in the field. I've said before I'd never weigh in with any kind of passion or authority on something like band, an instrument, or sport such as wrestling which I have no experience in - and I'd put a little more credibility in with someone who has participated extensively in those endeavors of I were engaged in a discussion on such a field/sport/skill.
Let your experience speak for itself. Experts in the field don't need to tell everyone they are experts in the field. They simply speak and because they have so much experience, their points are better and more accurate than the novices. Those who try to hammer (I liked MU82's description) others with experience usually just end up hurting their own cause.
Again, you make really good points Ners. But the extra stuff you though in there really turns others off.
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I agree with your analysis of last years coaching . Worst I have seen as well .
Ditto
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When someone on multiple occasions says my take on the coaching last season was hyperbole...I'm basically being called out on my position. It wasn't an exaggeration. As for me mentioning my "credentials" I'm giving a basis for what I'm forming my opinion against - personal playing experience as well as lots of time spent around coaches and having done some coaching myself. I sat court side at every Marquette game while at MU, coached at ONeill and Deanes camps, sat 1 seat down from Mike Dunleavy and Chris Ford for 41 home Bucks games per year for 3 years while at MU...so I've seen and been a little closer to the action than many have...and when I said worst coaching performance I'd seen in 30 years I meant it.
No it doesn't take having played the game at a high level or been exposed to it at a high level frequently to allow someone to make a good point on the game - yet my exposure to the game is what it is and has been. Generally when people seek the opinions of a person in any field, they value those slightly more of someone who had a high degree of experience in the field. I've said before I'd never weigh in with any kind of passion or authority on something like band, an instrument, or sport such as wrestling which I have no experience in - and I'd put a little more credibility in with someone who has participated extensively in those endeavors of I were engaged in a discussion on such a field/sport/skill.
The problem is that you let your passion get in the way of your reason. You disagree with the rotations and who got the most playing time. Fine. That's a topic that reasonable people can differ on and debate. Except if someone doesn't agree with your position (including the coach) you brand them stupid. And after calling everyone else stupid you assert something that's beyond stupid and annihilates your credibility - that Buzz was throwing games. I don't care if you've sat on the bench next to Red Auerbach for your entire life - that's flat out crazy. And people who stick to that kind of stubborn crazy are fun to bet with but aren't reliable analysts. You're a good guy and you know some basketball but you're leading too often with your heart and not your head.
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The problem is that you let your passion get in the way of your reason. You disagree with the rotations and who got the most playing time. Fine. That's a topic that reasonable people can differ on and debate. Except if someone doesn't agree with your position (including the coach) you brand them stupid. And after calling everyone else stupid you assert something that's beyond stupid and annihilates your credibility - that Buzz was throwing games. I don't care if you've sat on the bench next to Red Auerbach for your entire life - that's flat out crazy. And people who stick to that kind of stubborn crazy are fun to bet with but aren't reliable analysts. You're a good guy and you know some basketball but you're leading too often with your heart and not your head.
I'm not sure I've called anyone stupid here...I have said it is idiotic to think that playing Derrick and Jake more minutes than any other guys on the team, and being a maniac in substitutions, other than at the 2 positions that were the glaring weakness on the team - seemed dumb on Buzz's part.
As I posted once before - most any hardcore MU basketball fan knows Buzz is/was a little crazy...and capable of crazy. It wouldn't surprise me again, in the least, given that Buzz left in the immediate aftermath of the season - that he was giving admin a big F'You on his way out - for not letting him get his way with regard to how he wanted to recruit. Buzz didn't need to win games to still land another job, he had enough skins on the wall from his S-16, S-16, E8 run in years prior. And I highly doubt Buzz's complex and brilliant contract that HE negotiated with VaTech was something done in a matter of 1-week. I have no doubt those discussions were taking place for a much longer period of time...and concurrent to our season last year.
On the surface, would it not seem that Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil and Otule were some of the highest character kids on the team? All of them came to MU via 4-years of high school ball (no extra years in prep school such as Mayo/Burton). And not leading with my heart, but my head, does it not seem crazy to start that lineup?? How can Jamil be effective surrounded with 4 guys who are incredibly limited offensively?
Why after Dawson plays a very solid game and helps us win in OT on the road against G'Town, do you then only play him 8 minutes the next game...and no more than 16 the rest of the year thereafter, when prior to that point your existing PG has been struggling mightily? Why do you continue to play 4 on 5 (in your words Buzz)? Is Dawson, a 3-star prospect that YOU recruited and signed SO incredibly bad, that giving him more PT would result in potentially playing 3.5 on 5?? Highly doubtful.
I appreciate YOUR passion for MU hoops Lenny, and know your heart is in the right place as it relates to MU hoops - yet just greatly disagree on how Buzz performed last year and have it on pretty good record his head/heart were elsewhere much of last season.
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I'm not sure I've called anyone stupid here
You HAVE referred to people who disagree with you as idiots and adversaries.
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I'm not arguing he coached well. I never have. I am arguing that it wasn't the "worst coaching performance in 30 years."
THAT is hyperbolic nonsense. Anybody who had to witness some of Bob Dukiet's performances would show that it wasn't even the worst Marquette coaching performance over the past 30 years.
Was no one paying attention to the crean years???!!