Jajuan J breakout

[MU82]

Agree with everything here except the conclusion that Dawson was a band aid SOLUTION. Much more often than not he was anything but.

He was a solution the one game he was given more than a few trips down the court and then yanked.

And remember - I'm not a Buzz hater and not one of the folks who is sure that Dawson can play.

I do some coaching, too, and if I have a situation that simply isn't working, I try something else. It might not succeed, either, but at least I can say I tried.

It doesn't seem to be an outrageous notion. Coaches adapt all the time, at least the good ones.

[GGGG]

The problem is with this line of thinking is that we only see the games...what...10-15% of what actually goes on in a basketball program?

I think Buzz knew, given what he saw at practice and limited game time, that both Dawson and JJJ would struggle with more playing time.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

He was a solution the one game he was given more than a few trips down the court and then yanked.

And remember - I'm not a Buzz hater and not one of the folks who is sure that Dawson can play.

I do some coaching, too, and if I have a situation that simply isn't working, I try something else. It might not succeed, either, but at least I can say I tried.

It doesn't seem to be an outrageous notion. Coaches adapt all the time, at least the good ones.

Again, you're not wrong, but we're sitting here with hindsight.

I'm sure Buzz thought he could stick with his guys and get it to work.

At various points in Buzz's career, fans have wanted to replace Junior, Vander and Lockett. Buzz stuck with those players, and Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty. Shouldn't he have replaced Trent before? What about playing Junior when Junior had a stretch of terrible games (could barely get it across 1/2 court).

Hell, even after Todd Mayo was awful as a frosh, Buzz gave him a chance in March and it paid off.

So, while I agree that smart coaches adapt, smart coaches all do what they think is best. In the past, Buzz had stuck with his guys and it worked. Remember all of the "us vs the world" press conferences? "They don't think JUCO guys deserve to be here." "Nobody thinks we can shoot." etc. etc.

It had worked in the past. It didn't work this time. That's on Buzz... BUT, that doesn't mean that at the time the alternate option was a better solution. Different doesn't always mean "better". It just means "different".

[NersEllenson]

Again, you're not wrong, but we're sitting here with hindsight.

I'm sure Buzz thought he could stick with his guys and get it to work.

At various points in Buzz's career, fans have wanted to replace Junior, Vander and Lockett. Buzz stuck with those players, and Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty. Shouldn't he have replaced Trent before? What about playing Junior when Junior had a stretch of terrible games (could barely get it across 1/2 court).

Hell, even after Todd Mayo was awful as a frosh, Buzz gave him a chance in March and it paid off.

So, while I agree that smart coaches adapt, smart coaches all do what they think is best. In the past, Buzz had stuck with his guys and it worked. Remember all of the "us vs the world" press conferences? "They don't think JUCO guys deserve to be here." "Nobody thinks we can shoot." etc. etc.

It had worked in the past. It didn't work this time. That's on Buzz... BUT, that doesn't mean that at the time the alternate option was a better solution. Different doesn't always mean "better". It just means "different".

All in all a good post.  Yet, Lockett had skins on the wall as a D-1 player, and he was a transfer senior - hard to sit a guy like that, as he at least has shown he can do it at this level.

Mayo should good potential early in his freshman year, to where Buzz should have played him through the rut of his freshman season.

Vander?  Vander had to ask Buzz to stop playing him so much as a freshman as his confidence was eroding in himself after futile drive and futile drive and failed FG attempt.  I suspect Derrick's confidence eroded as the season wore on last year as well, given the lack of progress in his game.

Junior?  Think he might be the most valid parallel in that he was frustrating offensively, hadn't shown a whole lot at the D-1 level...yet his alternative was Derrick Wilson...a guy who had shown to be a good defender but absolutely nothing else beyond that.

Buzz simply didn't give Dawson, JJJ or Burton a fair shot at showing what they could do - which is fine, so long as the vets in front of them were producing - yet it is hard to argue that the production of Derrick, Jake and Juan was so incredible that we ran a great risk of ruining our season if Buzz tried the freshman for a few games...just to get a baseline as to how things would go.  At least get the diagnostic (when it is clear after 15-20 games your vets aren't going to win you any games over Top 50 teams.)

[79Warrior]

He was not shown the door.  Multiple people in this thread have stated as such.  Other people I know have pretty much backed up what Ners said.  He wore out his welcome and leadership didn't go out of its way to keep him happy.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Sultan is absolutely correct.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

All in all a good post.  Yet, Lockett had skins on the wall as a D-1 player, and he was a transfer senior - hard to sit a guy like that, as he at least has shown he can do it at this level.

Mayo should good potential early in his freshman year, to where Buzz should have played him through the rut of his freshman season.

Vander?  Vander had to ask Buzz to stop playing him so much as a freshman as his confidence was eroding in himself after futile drive and futile drive and failed FG attempt.  I suspect Derrick's confidence eroded as the season wore on last year as well, given the lack of progress in his game.

Junior?  Think he might be the most valid parallel in that he was frustrating offensively, hadn't shown a whole lot at the D-1 level...yet his alternative was Derrick Wilson...a guy who had shown to be a good defender but absolutely nothing else beyond that.

Buzz simply didn't give Dawson, JJJ or Burton a fair shot at showing what they could do - which is fine, so long as the vets in front of them were producing - yet it is hard to argue that the production of Derrick, Jake and Juan was so incredible that we ran a great risk of ruining our season if Buzz tried the freshman for a few games...just to get a baseline as to how things would go.  At least get the diagnostic (when it is clear after 15-20 games your vets aren't going to win you any games over Top 50 teams.)

I'm not trying to draw exact parallels, just showing that the thought process was similar to previous seasons. We all cheered when it worked. Hard to be SUPER MAD when it didn't.

Also, if Lockett has "skins on the wall", doesn't Buzz get the same benefit? We've seen him make the right moves in the past.

[willie warrior]

He was not shown the door.  Multiple people in this thread have stated as such.  Other people I know have pretty much backed up what Ners said.  He wore out his welcome and leadership didn't go out of its way to keep him happy.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Simply---he wore out his welcome, was told so (shown the door). Your own statement make my case. And simply, rarely do you know what you are talking about--simply.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Simply---he wore out his welcome, was told so (shown the door). Your own statement make my case. And simply, rarely do you know what you are talking about--simply.

Again, he could have stayed if he wanted to. He didn't want to. MU didn't try to placate him.

[NersEllenson]

I'm not trying to draw exact parallels, just showing that the thought process was similar to previous seasons. We all cheered when it worked. Hard to be SUPER MAD when it didn't.

Also, if Lockett has "skins on the wall", doesn't Buzz get the same benefit? We've seen him make the right moves in the past.

That's fair.  Yet, for me, and lets not forget I was a HUGE Buzz fan and supporter - it was so incredibly clear that the team wasn't going to be able to win with the lineup he chose to play - it just blew my mind that he felt he could make that work.  Even more mind blowing when he had guys on the bench who were very talented and weren't getting max minutes:  Mayo and Burton (at minimum)..Dawson and JJJ to a lesser extent.

[MU82]

Again, you're not wrong, but we're sitting here with hindsight.

I'm sure Buzz thought he could stick with his guys and get it to work.

At various points in Buzz's career, fans have wanted to replace Junior, Vander and Lockett. Buzz stuck with those players, and Buzz was rewarded for his loyalty. Shouldn't he have replaced Trent before? What about playing Junior when Junior had a stretch of terrible games (could barely get it across 1/2 court).

Hell, even after Todd Mayo was awful as a frosh, Buzz gave him a chance in March and it paid off.

So, while I agree that smart coaches adapt, smart coaches all do what they think is best. In the past, Buzz had stuck with his guys and it worked. Remember all of the "us vs the world" press conferences? "They don't think JUCO guys deserve to be here." "Nobody thinks we can shoot." etc. etc.

It had worked in the past. It didn't work this time. That's on Buzz... BUT, that doesn't mean that at the time the alternate option was a better solution. Different doesn't always mean "better". It just means "different".

OK, we are mostly in agreement.

But do remember that Buzz himself repeatedly said it wasn't working. He repeatedly said it was like playing 4-on-5. He had the benefit of his own hindsight yet he usually chose not to even think about doing something that might change the future.

Oh well ... I'm exhausted by this discussion. I was glad we had Buzz as a coach though I don't think he did a good job last season.

If you or anybody else wants the last word on this, that's fine by me. I'm done on this topic for now. I'll wait until there's a topic about the Ellenson brothers and Ners turns it into a Derrick-vs-Dawson diatribe!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

OK, we are mostly in agreement.

But do remember that Buzz himself repeatedly said it wasn't working. He repeatedly said it was like playing 4-on-5. He had the benefit of his own hindsight yet he usually chose not to even think about doing something that might change the future.

Oh well ... I'm exhausted by this discussion. I was glad we had Buzz as a coach though I don't think he did a good job last season.

If you or anybody else wants the last word on this, that's fine by me. I'm done on this topic for now. I'll wait until there's a topic about the Ellenson brothers and Ners turns it into a Derrick-vs-Dawson diatribe!

Buzz needed to do a better job last season. I think it's fair to say that.

But, I also don't think it's as simple as some people are making it out to be.

"He should've played (insert)!"

We screamed that same thing in other seasons, and it turns out that Buzz was right. Last season, he wasn't.

[brandx]

The problem is with this line of thinking is that we only see the games...what...10-15% of what actually goes on in a basketball program?

I think Buzz knew, given what he saw at practice and limited game time, that both Dawson and JJJ would struggle with more playing time.

Sounds reasonable..... Until you consider that Derrick and Jake struggled with more playing time.

[bilsu]

The problem is with this line of thinking is that we only see the games...what...10-15% of what actually goes on in a basketball program?

I think Buzz knew, given what he saw at practice and limited game time, that both Dawson and JJJ would struggle with more playing time.

Al use to say that "You did not know how good a player was until he plays under the big tent". Some players are practice players, some players are game players, some players are neither and some are both. I wonder if Dawson is the rare type of player that is actually better in a game than he is in practice. I thought of this when I was watching him at this year's MU Madness and he did virtually nothing, which surprised me.

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz needed to do a better job last season. I think it's fair to say that.

But, I also don't think it's as simple as some people are making it out to be.

"He should've played (insert)!"

We screamed that same thing in other seasons, and it turns out that Buzz was right. Last season, he wasn't.

We'll never know if Buzz was right last season or not. 17-15 could have been 12-20, close losses could have been blowouts. We'll never know, but I'm a percentage guy. If the armchair quarterbacks and second guessed were consistently wrong and the coach was consistently right for several years I think chances are last year was no different.

[NersEllenson]

We'll never know if Buzz was right last season or not. 17-15 could have been 12-20, close losses could have been blowouts. We'll never know, but I'm a percentage guy. If the armchair quarterbacks and second guessed were consistently wrong and the coach was consistently right for several years I think chances are last year was no different.

Really?  You don't think 7% from the 3 point line, with two makes in an entire career through the end of one's junior year and a 45% career FT shooting percentage, along with not needing to be guarded within 5 feet on the perimeter don't decrease your "percentages" of winning?  LOL

As for my second guessing of Buzz in past years, there was virtually zero - other than Vander shouldn't have been starting or playing much at all as a freshman...while Gardner/Mayo was deserving of a few more minutes  Beyond that?  Never second guessed him on Lockett, Cadougan, or others.

Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan.  (And I believe Buzz is too intelligent and good of coach to genuinely believe he could win with that lineup, and given his departure at the immediate end of last season, is why I don't think it is a "conspiracy" that he was giving MU admin a Big F You on his way out the door...and playing the high character kids/traditional path to MU kids)

[Lennys Tap]

Really?  You don't think 7% from the 3 point line, with two makes in an entire career through the end of one's junior year and a 45% career FT shooting percentage, along with not needing to be guarded within 5 feet on the perimeter don't decrease your "percentages" of winning?  LOL

As for my second guessing of Buzz in past years, there was virtually zero - other than Vander shouldn't have been starting or playing much at all as a freshman...while Gardner/Mayo was deserving of a few more minutes  Beyond that?  Never second guessed him on Lockett, Cadougan, or others.

Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan.  (And I believe Buzz is too intelligent and good of coach to genuinely believe he could win with that lineup, and given his departure at the immediate end of last season, is why I don't think it is a "conspiracy" that he was giving MU admin a Big F You on his way out the door...and playing the high character kids/traditional path to MU kids)

Yes, really. And not percentages that are cherry picked. I watched Derrick and John's OVERALL play last year and concluded that Derrick deserved to play more than John. Your conclusion was that only an idiot or a guy who was intentionally throwing games could say or do that. I thought that when Wojo watched the tape and saw them in practice he would agree with me. You laughed, mocked me and said no way. Buzz was the worst coach ever, Wojo wouldn't/couldn't be that stupid. Fast forward 6 months - Wojo names Derrick captain and will (barring injury) play him solid minutes, even with newbies Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available. John looks like the last guard off the bench and may be moved to the 2/3 because HE CAN'T PLAY THE POINT. But Buzz is an idiot, Wojo's an idiot and I'm an idiot. Because you say so. Fine, this percentage guy (or idiot, take your pick) will let you out of our wager for, say, 475. Interested?

[GGGG]

Al use to say that "You did not know how good a player was until he plays under the big tent". Some players are practice players, some players are game players, some players are neither and some are both. I wonder if Dawson is the rare type of player that is actually better in a game than he is in practice. I thought of this when I was watching him at this year's MU Madness and he did virtually nothing, which surprised me.

Why?  Outside of Georgetown he didn't do anything last year.

[GGGG]

Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan.

I'm sorry but this is really the height of hyperbolic stupidity. The worst coaching performance in 30 years?  Because he wouldn't play John Dawson or JJJ?  

Cmon. You are smarter than this. You can disagree with Buzz but it isn't completely unheard of for a coach to go with experience over highly rated, but seemingly over matched talent.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm sorry but this is really the height of hyperbolic stupidity. The worst coaching performance in 30 years?  Because he wouldn't play John Dawson or JJJ?  

Cmon. You are smarter than this. You can disagree with Buzz but it isn't completely unheard of for a coach to go with experience over highly rated, but seemingly over matched talent.

Hell, Dawson wasn't even highly rated.

[chapman]

The reason is that no coaches play freshmen less than Buzz.

Burton averaged:
Year   12.6
NC   14.5
C   11.3
1st half Conference   11.1
2nd half Conference   11.4

Burton played less at the end of the year than he did at the beginning of the year, and there was virtually no difference between how much Burton played the first 9 games of conference play and the last 10 games of conference play.

Also, for the "Buzz was goofy with his patterns" crowd, Burton's PT was really inconsistent. Lots of games with 6 min or less. Lots of games with 17+ min.

Burton averaged 6.5 less MPG than the next lowest player selected to the All-Rookie team.  12.6 MPG, with 19.1 MPG being the next lowest (52% more minutes), and the rest 21.4 MPG or more.  Possibly a greater disparity in conference play.  At least nine other coaches could identify an impact player, despite seeing him play so little.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Yes, really. And not percentages that are cherry picked. I watched Derrick and John's OVERALL play last year and concluded that Derrick deserved to play more than John. Your conclusion was that only an idiot or a guy who was intentionally throwing games could say or do that. I thought that when Wojo watched the tape and saw them in practice he would agree with me. You laughed, mocked me and said no way. Buzz was the worst coach ever, Wojo wouldn't/couldn't be that stupid. Fast forward 6 months - Wojo names Derrick captain and will (barring injury) play him solid minutes, even with newbies Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available. John looks like the last guard off the bench and may be moved to the 2/3 because HE CAN'T PLAY THE POINT. But Buzz is an idiot, Wojo's an idiot and I'm an idiot. Because you say so. Fine, this percentage guy (or idiot, take your pick) will let you out of our wager for, say, 475. Interested?

Who cares if he was named captain? That to me says he's a respected leader, doesn't mean he can play at the high D1 level. Lots of players who aren't very good get named captain for a variety of reasons. Derrick had all last year to prove what he could do and he was a complete disaster. If he plays solid minutes again this year, I am going to have a meltdown and I would expect another terrible year. He is not capable of playing meaningful minutes for a team hoping to make the tournament. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would want to relive the nightmare from last year all over again.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Again, he could have stayed if he wanted to. He didn't want to. MU didn't try to placate him.

MU knew before he left that he was leaving.  It's like having a girlfriend you don't like anymore but you haven't broken up with her.  She finally says she may want to see other people and you pull out a phone book with a list of numbers to get her started on her way. 

#2 coach in MU history wasn't worth keeping around, and when you have such strong suitors like Va Tech, why even bother.

[MU82]

Al use to say that "You did not know how good a player was until he plays under the big tent". Some players are practice players, some players are game players, some players are neither and some are both. I wonder if Dawson is the rare type of player that is actually better in a game than he is in practice. I thought of this when I was watching him at this year's MU Madness and he did virtually nothing, which surprised me.

When asked to assess prospects, Lou Piniella used to say, "We'll see how he does when the lights come on."

More often than not -- especially when he was talking about a young Cub -- the prospect couldn't handle the pressure.

[Galway Eagle]

Who cares if he was named captain? That to me says he's a respected leader, doesn't mean he can play at the high D1 level. Lots of players who aren't very good get named captain for a variety of reasons. Derrick had all last year to prove what he could do and he was a complete disaster. If he plays solid minutes again this year, I am going to have a meltdown and I would expect another terrible year. He is not capable of playing meaningful minutes for a team hoping to make the tournament. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would want to relive the nightmare from last year all over again.

What do you define as solid minutes? Say 13.1mpg?

[Galway Eagle]

MU knew before he left that he was leaving.  It's like having a girlfriend you don't like anymore but you haven't broken up with her.  She finally says she may want to see other people and you pull out a phone book with a list of numbers to get her started on her way. 

#2 coach in MU history wasn't worth keeping around, and when you have such strong suitors like Va Tech, why even bother.

I believe his name has been associated with considerably stronger suitors and we managed to keep him. It's not like he said no to say SMU without us desperately trying to keep him and yes to VT in the same situation.