What's going through Buzz and Crean's minds right now?

[The Equalizer]

Here's the thing. You wrote that Marquette had not recruited a guy ranked as high as Henry since Majerus recruited Joe Wolf. That's patently false. Long after we recruited Joe Wolf (whose Dad and brother didn't go to MU) we recruited Brian Butch (whose Dad and brother didn't go to MU). So you were 100% wrong in your assertion.

Henry is currently ranked 4th in ESPN.  Butch was tied for 7th in the RSCI.

Technically, that makes Chicos correct--just barely--in his assertion. 

The other stuff, was this a unique situation, etc., sure. I never addressed that, I was correcting your mistake about our recruiting history. I don't know whether Henry's Dad enrolling in, becoming disenchanted with and eventually transferring from Marquette helped us or hurt us. Neither do you. But whether it did or not can't make joeWolf's recruitment come AFTER Brian Butch's. It would be like saying in 1980 that we hadn't been in a world war since World War I. Wrong.

Well maybe you SHOULD consider the other stuff--that might make for a more interesting discussion than you trying to nitpick on something that you were techically incorrect on.

The original post said Crean nor Buzz landed a player like Henry.  Chico's point is arguably correct--neither had the chance at a player like Henry.  Chico's opines that Butch isn't on par with Henry or Wolf.  I happen to agree with him.  What do you think? 

[The Lens]

Henry is currently ranked 4th in ESPN.  Butch was tied for 7th in the RSCI.

Technically, that makes Chicos correct--just barely--in his assertion. 

Henry may be 4th in ESPN but his composite on 247 is 10th and his Top247 is 19th.  So as it stands now, Butch with a RSCI of 7 is higher that Henry's.  I think I'm going to have to award this point to The Tap.

[Lennys Tap]

Henry is currently ranked 4th in ESPN.  Butch was tied for 7th in the RSCI.

Technically, that makes Chicos correct--just barely--in his assertion. 

You're comparing apples (one ranking service - ESPN) to oranges (the composite rankings - RSCI). Apples to apples, using composites and not one cherry picked service? Butch 7, Ellenson 10. So that makes Chico wrong. You, too. Thanks for stopping by.

[The Lens]

You're comparing apples (one ranking service - ESPN) to oranges (the composite rankings - RSCI). Apples to apples, using composites and not one cherry picked service? Butch 7, Ellenson 10. So that makes Chico wrong. You, too. Thanks for stopping by.

Mr. Tap...DOIN' Work!

[Lennys Tap]

The original post said Crean nor Buzz landed a player like Henry.  Chico's point is arguably correct--neither had the chance at a player like Henry.  Chico's opines that Butch isn't on par with Henry or Wolf.  I happen to agree with him.  What do you think?  

That part of the post I agree with. Hell, Butch (IMO) didn't TURN OUT to be on a par with a lot of guys (Wade, Diener, Novak, McNeal, DJ, Matthews, Hayward, DJO, JFB, Crowder and Vander, to name a few) who came to MU.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that Chico was technically, demonstrably, factually and unequivocally wrong about what I said he was wrong about. You can say that 2+2=5 in one part of a post and that 3+3 =6 in another part. The fact that 3+3=6 is correct doesn't make 2+2=5 also right.

[keefe]

doesn't make 2+2=5 also right.

well, what about Johnson measuring?

[dgies9156]

Hell, Butch (IMO) didn't TURN OUT to be on a par with a lot of guys (Wade, Diener, Novak, McNeal, DJ, Matthews, Hayward, DJO, JFB, Crowder and Vander, to name a few) who came to MU.

Had Brian Butch gone to Marquette instead of the roadkill to the west, we might have been a legitimate contender for a national championship. As I recall, most of the other pieces were in place at the time.

[River rat]

This thread has now achieved Wade's World Corollary #2:

2) Chicos has taken a thread completely off topic and started telling everyone who will listen how intelligent he is, how many famous people he knows, how it's not what was said here but it's who said something here, how he's a victim and people personally attack him (after he has called out their names on here), and how great of a coach Tom Crean is, especially for taking Dwyane Wade from unwanted by mid-majors to NBA Hall of Famer.

Exactly, and as I have stated before if chicos did not claim to be an MU fan and instead was a wisconsin fan he would have been banned long ago.  However, due to his claim of being an MU fan, despite any real evidence, the moderators continue to allow him to make a mockery of the board.  he is worse than any troll from another school, a wolf in sheep's clothing and it is allowed.   he is a huge black eye for the entire board.  Truly a great shame and I simply done understand why it is allowed.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Exactly, and as I have stated before if chicos did not claim to be an MU fan and instead was a wisconsin fan he would have been banned long ago.  However, due to his claim of being an MU fan, despite any real evidence, the moderators continue to allow him to make a mockery of the board.  he is worse than any troll from another school, a wolf in sheep's clothing and it is allowed.   he is a huge black eye for the entire board.  Truly a great shame and I simply done understand why it is allowed.

I found it ironic how you responded by essentially trolling. ..

[wadesworld]

This thread has now achieved Wade's World Corollary #2:

2) Chicos has taken a thread completely off topic and started telling everyone who will listen how intelligent he is, how many famous people he knows, how it's not what was said here but it's who said something here, how he's a victim and people personally attack him (after he has called out their names on here), and how great of a coach Tom Crean is, especially for taking Dwyane Wade from unwanted by mid-majors to NBA Hall of Famer.

Yes; however, this thread had no chance of going anywhere but there.  Chicos just sped the process up a little bit by posting quite a bit in a short amount of time.  That post was aimed more at threads that were meant to be about a legitimate topic that were then taken off topic by Chicos or Ners.  But you are correct.

[River rat]

I found it ironic how you responded by essentially trolling. ..

actually it was an appeal to the mods

[The Equalizer]

You're comparing apples (one ranking service - ESPN) to oranges (the composite rankings - RSCI). Apples to apples, using composites and not one cherry picked service? Butch 7, Ellenson 10. So that makes Chico wrong. You, too. Thanks for stopping by.

So is it okay for you to compare apples (Ellenson - pre-senior year ranking) to oranges (Butch - post senior ranking)?  Is that what you're saying?  

Of course that doesn't change the fact that Chico was technically, demonstrably, factually and unequivocally wrong about what I said he was wrong about. You can say that 2+2=5 in one part of a post and that 3+3 =6 in another part. The fact that 3+3=6 is correct doesn't make 2+2=5 also right.

And on what are you basing this particular conclusion?  One of those apples to oranges comparison you're quick to call others out on?

For my view, I haven't seen anyone that would disagree with the argument (which is essentially what Chicos is making) that Ellenson is the best player from the state of Wisconsin since Joe Wolf.

The real question is that if Chicos hadn't weighed in here, would you be trying to make the argument that Butch was every bit the player that Wolf was (and Henry is)?  Or are you only making it (based on your own apples-to-oranges comparison, BTW), because you want to make statments like "Chico was technically, demonstrably, factually and unequivocally wrong.

Put aside your historic animius toward chicos and answer this for me:  What do you really think on the comparison?  Do you agree with the sentimement of what Chicos posted that Ellenson is best player out of Wisconsin since Wolf?  Or do you think Butch is the best player since Wolf?

That's a basketball discussion, not off topic, not focused on any one poster, and would be an interesting discussion.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Henry may be 4th in ESPN but his composite on 247 is 10th and his Top247 is 19th.  So as it stands now, Butch with a RSCI of 7 is higher that Henry's.  I think I'm going to have to award this point to The Tap.

And again, it means nothing.

#2 pick in the NFL draft Ryan Leaf

#2 pick in the NFL draft Calvin Johnson

Both are #2 picks....so they must be the same as they were the "second best player taken".   It's absurd, which is what I've been telling Lenny for years.

Just because you have a RSCI rating of 10 in one year, and in another year someone has a RSCI of 8, that doesn't mean the kid with a #8 is better than than the kid with the #10.  It means IN THAT GIVEN YEAR that kid was rated 8th, it has ZERO BEARING on any under year.  NONE.  NADA.  It is a rating of other players of that year only.  Some years the recruiting classes (or the draft classes in my example above) are much stronger than other years.  A kid ranked 5th one year might only be 18th in another year.

Brian Butch has a RSCI at #7....no where on planet earth has he EVER been claimed to be potentially the best high school player in Wisconsin history.  NOWHERE. NADA.  NONE.    Yet the #10 RSCI player THIS YEAR, has been given that attribution....but how is this possible?  Easy, because classes are different year to year to year.

[Galway Eagle]

And again, it means nothing.

#2 pick in the NFL draft Ryan Leaf

#2 pick in the NFL draft Calvin Johnson

Both are #2 picks....so they must be the same as they were the "second best player taken".   It's absurd, which is what I've been telling Lenny for years.

Just because you have a RSCI rating of 10 in one year, and in another year someone has a RSCI of 8, that doesn't mean the kid with a #8 is better than than the kid with the #10.  It means IN THAT GIVEN YEAR that kid was rated 8th, it has ZERO BEARING on any under year.  NONE.  NADA.  It is a rating of other players of that year only.  Some years the recruiting classes (or the draft classes in my example above) are much stronger than other years.  A kid ranked 5th one year might only be 18th in another year.

Brian Butch has a RSCI at #7....no where on planet earth has he EVER been claimed to be potentially the best high school player in Wisconsin history.  NOWHERE. NADA.  NONE.    Yet the #10 RSCI player THIS YEAR, has been given that attribution....but how is this possible?  Easy, because classes are different year to year to year.

Who's annointing him the best WI basketball player ever?

[Lennys Tap]

And again, it means nothing.

#2 pick in the NFL draft Ryan Leaf

#2 pick in the NFL draft Calvin Johnson

Both are #2 picks....so they must be the same as they were the "second best player taken".   It's absurd, which is what I've been telling Lenny for years.

Just because you have a RSCI rating of 10 in one year, and in another year someone has a RSCI of 8, that doesn't mean the kid with a #8 is better than than the kid with the #10.  It means IN THAT GIVEN YEAR that kid was rated 8th, it has ZERO BEARING on any under year.  NONE.  NADA.  It is a rating of other players of that year only.  Some years the recruiting classes (or the draft classes in my example above) are much stronger than other years.  A kid ranked 5th one year might only be 18th in another year.

Brian Butch has a RSCI at #7....no where on planet earth has he EVER been claimed to be potentially the best high school player in Wisconsin history.  NOWHERE. NADA.  NONE.    Yet the #10 RSCI player THIS YEAR, has been given that attribution....but how is this possible?  Easy, because classes are different year to year to year.

Suppose a team is RANKED 10th today. And suppose that team had been RANKED 7th in 2003 and RANKED 8th in 1983. Would it be correct to say that the team today was higher ranked than it had been since 1983? Of course not. It would be wrong on the facts. It might be the BEST team since 1983. Maybe 2003 was a down year. That's certainly an argument one could make. But that's not what you wrote. What you wrote was indisputably wrong on the facts. Period. This has been a rough couple of days for you. Take a breath, admit your mistake. Move on. You'll feel better.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's use an even more appropriate example...RSCI.

RSCI #7 2005.  Richard Hendrix.

vs

RSCI  #7 2001.  Julius Hodge



RSCI # 7 1999.  Brett Nelson

vs.

RSCI # 7  2000.  Chris Duhon



So on and so forth.  All #7 RSCI....are they all of equal talent?  Of course not, but same RSCI rating.  Brian Butch in the same breath as Ellenson is laughable if the recruiting gurus and HS experts in the state of Wisconsin are to be believed.

[swoopem]

What was Looney's final ranking? He was playing ball in Wisco last year and seems like people have already forgotten him already. I'm pretty sure he was top 10 and possibly the best player since Wolf.

[BossplayaOtto]

What was Looney's final ranking? He was playing ball in Wisco last year and seems like people have already forgotten him already. I'm pretty sure he was top 10 and possibly the best player since Wolf.

Good catch, but more importantly, did Looney's Dad play at and have a brother enrolled at Marquette?

I keed, I keed.

Sorry, after reading the whole thread, I couldn't resist. FWIW, I'm with Tap on this one.

[4everwarriors]

What was Looney's final ranking? He was playing ball in Wisco last year and seems like people have already forgotten him already. I'm pretty sure he was top 10 and possibly the best player since Wolf.

Y'all will remember him when his name is called in June, hey?

[Lennys Tap]

Let's use an even more appropriate example...RSCI.

RSCI #7 2005.  Richard Hendrix.

vs

RSCI  #7 2001.  Julius Hodge



RSCI # 7 1999.  Brett Nelson

vs.

RSCI # 7  2000.  Chris Duhon



So on and so forth.  All #7 RSCI....are they all of equal talent?  Of course not, but same RSCI rating.  Brian Butch in the same breath as Ellenson is laughable if the recruiting gurus and HS experts in the state of Wisconsin are to be believed.

This has nothing to do with it and you know it. Dwyane Wade wasn't in the top 100 in 2000 and was better than every one of the guys ahead of him. But being better than them didn't mean he was RANKED ahead of them. You were wrong, you are wrong, everyone who understands 7 is a lower number than 10 knows you're wrong. I'm not going to let this become another 30+ page shrine to your stubbornness. Over and out.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This thread has now achieved Wade's World Corollary #2:

2) Chicos has taken a thread completely off topic and started telling everyone who will listen how intelligent he is, how many famous people he knows, how it's not what was said here but it's who said something here, how he's a victim and people personally attack him (after he has called out their names on here), and how great of a coach Tom Crean is, especially for taking Dwyane Wade from unwanted by mid-majors to NBA Hall of Famer.

I didn't take it off thread at all.  The opening post was about what was going on through their minds and could they have gotten this kid.  The reality is, opportunity was never there, circumstances not there, etc, etc.  Never in the history of those two coaches being at MU was a kid like Ellenson available where his dad went to MU, his brother transferred to MU, etc. 

I'm sorry you can't connect the dots, but that's your problem.  The rest of your stuff is just hyperbole....your basically calling Dwyane Wade a liar, which I don't care to do.  If you wish to, knock your socks off.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This has nothing to do with it and you know it. Dwyane Wade wasn't in the top 100 in 2000 and was better than every one of the guys ahead of him. But being better than them didn't mean he was RANKED ahead of them. You were wrong, you are wrong, everyone who understands 7 is a lower number than 10 knows you're wrong. I'm not going to let this become another 30+ page shrine to your stubbornness. Over and out.

YOU WERE the one that used the RSCI rankings and continue to try to make one year's ranking the equivalency of a ranking in a completely different year.  You are absolutely, 100% wrong in that ascertion.  There is zero basis for your thinking.  None.  You've been given many examples, all of which prove how wrong your are, yet it is YOU who is stubborn and refuses to acknowledge it.   I've shown you other #7's in the RSCI that don't compare at all year over year.....using YOUR data source....yet you still won't admit you are wrong.   Hell, I can show you #1's in the RSCI in one year that aren't good as #10's in another year, proves exactly my point again.  Everyone does understand 7 is lower than 10....yet in the irony of all ironies, you use Dwyane Wade in this very thread and say he wasn't even ranked in the RSCI yet better than all the cats ahead of him.  But wait, if everyone understands 7 is lower than 10 and thus, "better", then certainly "everyone understands 1 is better than outside the top 100, 2 is better than outside the top 100, 3 is better than outside the top 100, 4 is better than outside the top 100, 5, 6, 7, 8, 15, 27, 42, 66, 89 are all better than outside the top 100."  BUT WAIT, now we have to throw that all away in your logic train for the Dwyane Wade example and say not only ignore your examples 7 is better than 10, but ignore numbers 1 through 100 because none of them are better than Wade and was ranked outside the top 100.  AWESOME.  Truly.  Awesome. 

So to summarize, we're supposed to believe your precious RSCI ratings that Brian Butch at #7, despite NEVER by ANY expert in the state being mentioned as one of the greatest high school basketball players in Wisconsin history is as good or BETTER than Ellenson because Ellenson is RSCI 10 in a totally different year, in a stronger class, etc, and believed to be the best player in the state since Joe Wolf.....the same Butch that was so great he had to redshirt....at the same time you want to flip that logic completely upside down and also say Dwyane Wade was better than EVERYONE ranked ahead of him, which means he should have been ranked #1.   Awesome.

Let me know when you want to step on the logic train, because you are so dead and buried on this one it is funny.  Keep digging that hole.   Oh, and in the greatest irony of all, you are slamming a certain coach for not getting a great recruit like Butch yet you just told us that Wade was ranked ahead of everyone on the list...so that would mean he got a #1 recruit.  Incredible.

Game.  Set.  Match.    Drive safely home tonight.

[Galway Eagle]

I didn't take it off thread at all.  The opening post was about what was going on through their minds and could they have gotten this kid.  The reality is, opportunity was never there, circumstances not there, etc, etc.  Never in the history of those two coaches being at MU was a kid like Ellenson available where his dad went to MU, his brother transferred to MU, etc. 

I'm sorry you can't connect the dots, but that's your problem.  The rest of your stuff is just hyperbole....your basically calling Dwyane Wade a liar, which I don't care to do.  If you wish to, knock your socks off.

In all fairness Wojo created the transfer circumstance and Its not like Henry's dad hadn't gone to MU when Buzz was here. I mean you can argue on the crean side all you want I didn't even know I was going to MU when he was here but the bottom line is this is the same henry ellenson that Buzz failed at recruiting with the same circumstances etc.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Butch was #7 RSCI.

Nice to see Chico's still doing his best to play down the accomplishments of any Marquette coach not named Tom.

If you bothered to pay attention, I'm actually showing how this recruit is one of the best players ever in the history of the state of Wisconsin, so I don't know what you're talking about.  How is saying Wojo got arguably the best player in state history since Joe Wolf a slam against a MU coach....please, I'd like to hear this.

All I said was the opportunity to land a kid in the same situation was not there for Buzz and TC, because never had either of those coaches had a player who's dad went to MU, who's brother is at MU, and also a kid that was this good (way better than Butch).  But hey, let me now how I'm slamming Wojo....should be good.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This all makes sense but why explain it in a way that diminishes the accomplishment?  Wojo got Wally, he quickly made a great connection with HE and the family that just wasn't there 9 months or a year ago.  From what we know he wasnt lining up to come to MU for those reasons prior to those actions.  Dude wants to be in the NBA and picked MU to get him there -- time to party and hope like hell he can make it happen as soon as possible so we get another one like him.

I didn't.   It doesn't diminish it all, it just brings more clarity.  I was answering the OP and some of the other posts.  Timing is everything.  Should we have started a thread that said "what's going on through KO and Mike Deane's minds right now" when we landed Wade or DJ, or Wes?   Or what's going on through TC and MD's head when we landed Junior Cadougan?  Opportunity, luck, relationship, scenario, great recruiting, timing....so many things go into it.  Comparing one to another...silly.  No different than the Shaka slams.  If Shaka was the MU coach, could he have recruited Ellenson?  Who knows...maybe no but we get Stone.  Nobody knows, nobody.