A Pope for our time?

[Coleman]

Maybe someone here can tell me the "practical difference" between an annulment and a divorce. I realize they are not the same thing, but don't they accomplish exactly the same thing?

I was raised in a pretty strict protestant home and always wanted to be a catholic as a kid. I had to follow all these rules about what I could and couldn't do (fun things always lined up on the "couldn't side) and they got to do whatever they wanted and then just go to confession and everything was reset.

The Catholic Church (as of now, this may be changing as we speak) does not allow for divorce. Annulments, in their truest sense (the marriage was never valid, and never happened) have historically been allowed for very specific reasons: marriage was never consummated, inability to procreate, marriage was conducted under duress or influence, etc. There was very specific criteria that had to be met for the marriage to be declared as never happening. However, more recently annulments have become a de facto Catholic divorce, and now the Church just allows divorce by another name. Since the cat is already out of the bag, the Church should just stop pretending and accept that divorces happen and keep those people as part of the Church, if they want to be.

[Coleman]

Hopefully this doesn't take us into the locked thread alley, but as a non-catholic (lutheran...so catholic lite, twice the salvation, half the guilt) I've always been confused by how "strict" the church is and how blatantly the believers ignore the churches rules.

My wife is catholic and before we got married we had a serious discussion about what faith we wanted to follow.  She didn't have to become lutheran, but I told her in no uncertain terms I would not become catholic.  I just can't get up before god and pledge to faithfully adhere to his rules per the catholic church when I know I'm going to ignore/fight against 75% of them.

Apologizes for my callousness but why is it that folks of the catholic faith hold it to be such a part of their identity and speak so highly of it but than choose to ignore it when it comes to the vast majority of their life decisions/politics?

The most liberal people I know are catholic....clearly I'm missing something.  

I'm not judging in any way just trying to understand it.  My wife couldn't explain it and she went to a catholic school for everything but high school and college.

The Catholic legal system (aka Canon Law) is very different from the civil legal system we are used to. For example, in secular society we have relatively lax laws when it comes to morality (do basically whatever you want, as long as it doesn't trample on others' rights or harm the common good). But if you break the laws, there will be consequences and you will have to suffer the punishment. The Church runs in the opposite way: very strict moral code, but a more forgiving attitude if they are broken: we are all sinners, right? So confess, do your penance, and life is good. Its just a different way of approaching morality. And its very strange for people used to secular law.

[Coleman]

To OP of the thread, I also hold great hope for Pope Francis. He is sorely needed. If the Church continues to cling to medieval conceptions of sexual morality, it will be irrelevant by the end of my lifetime. It has a very short window to adjust its teachings before enough people leave that it is an afterthought in society.

I think Francis knows this, and is beginning the process of dragging the rest of the hierarchy, kicking and screaming, up to modern times.

[GGGG]

The Catholic legal system (aka Canon Law) is very different from the civil legal system we are used to. For example, in secular society we have relatively lax laws when it comes to morality (do basically whatever you want, as long as it doesn't trample on others' rights or harm the common good). But if you break the laws, there will be consequences and you will have to suffer the punishment. The Church runs in the opposite way: very strict moral code, but a more forgiving attitude if they are broken: we are all sinners, right? So confess, do your penance, and life is good. Its just a different way of approaching morality. And its very strange for people used to secular law.

Yeah but I think he is touching on something more than that.  For instance, many Catholics use birth control.  They do so knowing that it is against Catholic teaching and my guess is that they don't view it as a sin and don't confess about its use.  I had a good friend at Marquette that simply called its prohibition by the church "silly."

And that's just one issue.  Homosexuality is another.  How many Catholics actively campaign for the death penalty?  For pro-choice?  Against universal health coverage?

[Coleman]

Yeah but I think he is touching on something more than that.  For instance, many Catholics use birth control.  They do so knowing that it is against Catholic teaching and my guess is that they don't view it as a sin and don't confess about its use.  I had a good friend at Marquette that simply called its prohibition by the church "silly."

And that's just one issue.  Homosexuality is another.  How many Catholics actively campaign for the death penalty?  For pro-choice?  Against universal health coverage?

You're right. It is more than what I said, I was just trying to provide some deeper context.

But yes, so many of the teachings are outdated/irrelevant that people are beginning to ignore them.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Hopefully this doesn't take us into the locked thread alley, but as a non-catholic (lutheran...so catholic lite, twice the salvation, half the guilt) I've always been confused by how "strict" the church is and how blatantly the believers ignore the churches rules.

My wife is catholic and before we got married we had a serious discussion about what faith we wanted to follow.  She didn't have to become lutheran, but I told her in no uncertain terms I would not become catholic.  I just can't get up before god and pledge to faithfully adhere to his rules per the catholic church when I know I'm going to ignore/fight against 75% of them.

Apologizes for my callousness but why is it that folks of the catholic faith hold it to be such a part of their identity and speak so highly of it but than choose to ignore it when it comes to the vast majority of their life decisions/politics?

The most liberal people I know are catholic....clearly I'm missing something.   

I'm not judging in any way just trying to understand it.  My wife couldn't explain it and she went to a catholic school for everything but high school and college.

The modern Catholic Church (post Vatican II) is far closer to Lutheran than ever before. If you actually look at Martin Luther's thesis, he was right. I'm a Catholic, and I can admit that.

The Catholic Church is just REALLY slow to change. Eventually, the Catholic Church evolved and looks more similar to Luther's original vision, but the Church is never going to openly admit that.

As far as Francis, I LOVE everything about him. He's an inspiration.

The power of humbleness, charity, love and forgiveness are the foundations for Christianity. If we actually read and follow the spirit of the text, we know what is right/wrong. It's when people get caught up in church dogma/politics/specifics that things get twisted into agendas.

People (including me) call Francis a radical, but the truth is, the dude is more traditional than we have ever seen. He's stripped down his Papacy to Catholicism's true values, and it's been amazing to watch.

[source?]

Pretty sure you are correct with these impressions.

Then this thread is more confusing than I initially thought...

[Spotcheck Billy]

The Catholic Church (as of now, this may be changing as we speak) does not allow for divorce. Annulments, in their truest sense (the marriage was never valid, and never happened) have historically been allowed for very specific reasons: marriage was never consummated, inability to procreate, marriage was conducted under duress or influence, etc. There was very specific criteria that had to be met for the marriage to be declared as never happening. However, more recently annulments have become a de facto Catholic divorce, and now the Church just allows divorce by another name. Since the cat is already out of the bag, the Church should just stop pretending and accept that divorces happen and keep those people as part of the Church, if they want to be.

not so sure about those reasons for anullments, I work with a guy that after 5 years of marriage and 2 kids was granted an annulment after a $10,000 contribution, that was over 20 years ago

[Lennys Tap]

Hopefully this doesn't take us into the locked thread alley, but as a non-catholic (lutheran...so catholic lite, twice the salvation, half the guilt) I've always been confused by how "strict" the church is and how blatantly the believers ignore the churches rules.

My wife is catholic and before we got married we had a serious discussion about what faith we wanted to follow.  She didn't have to become lutheran, but I told her in no uncertain terms I would not become catholic.  I just can't get up before god and pledge to faithfully adhere to his rules per the catholic church when I know I'm going to ignore/fight against 75% of them.

Apologizes for my callousness but why is it that folks of the catholic faith hold it to be such a part of their identity and speak so highly of it but than choose to ignore it when it comes to the vast majority of their life decisions/politics?

The most liberal people I know are catholic....clearly I'm missing something.  

I'm not judging in any way just trying to understand it.  My wife couldn't explain it and she went to a catholic school for everything but high school and college.

What exactly (specifically) do you mean by ignoring the church rules when it comes to the "vast majority" of their life decisions? Artificial birth control, yes. Premarital sex, yes. What else?

There are some ultra conservative Catholics who agree with you. They refer to self identifying Catholics who don't accept everything that comes out of Rome as "cafeteria Catholics" who pick and choose which parts of the faith to observe. Most Catholics I know don't buy that, though. They know that in the Catholic faith the individual conscience is sacrosanct and that very few of the "rules" have come from ex cathedra pronouncements. Their rituals are Catholic, their community is Catholic and their small community within the larger one is Catholic, too. Most of their families go back through personal histories of persecution for their faith. Disagreement with a man made rule here or there isn't enough for most to leave. It's been too much of who/what we are for too long to abandon it. That said, I think (with my children's generation), the Church is at a tipping point. They love what they've seen from Pope Francis (as do I) but unless the church officially becomes more accepting of all God's children (especially those from the gay community) I'm afraid the Catholic Church in America is in big trouble.

[mu03eng]

Yeah but I think he is touching on something more than that.  For instance, many Catholics use birth control.  They do so knowing that it is against Catholic teaching and my guess is that they don't view it as a sin and don't confess about its use.  I had a good friend at Marquette that simply called its prohibition by the church "silly."

And that's just one issue.  Homosexuality is another.  How many Catholics actively campaign for the death penalty?  For pro-choice?  Against universal health coverage?

I was very fascinated when I read this article of Malcolm Gladwell's.  The guy who helped invent the birth control did it so it would be natural and therefore approved by the catholic church.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130219103742/http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_03_10_a_rock.htm

I have the same impression, any of my catholic friends that disagree with the church don't view their stance as a sin, simply as the church being "backwards".  I get that change is slow (sometimes for good reason, you want to make sure it's the right moral direction to go) but it seems to me the reason for it's existence is essentially going away.

I ultimately agree, what the majority of catholics are these days are lutherans with a lot of reverence for saints and Mary.  So that's what the people are...does the church change to reflect that or try and "force" some less lax middle ground?

[mu03eng]

What exactly (specifically) do you mean by ignoring the church rules when it comes to the "vast majority" of their life decisions? Artificial birth control, yes. Premarital sex, yes. What else?

homosexual marriage, not divorcing, no meat on Fridays, regular attendance of confession, not taking the lord's name in vain, etc.  Ya know, your basic venial sins.  I could probably create a whole list of church teachings (as I understand them) that I've seen countless catholics ignore.

[🏀]

Self-gratification.

[mu03eng]

Self-gratification.

That's a big one

[Coleman]

not so sure about those reasons for anullments, I work with a guy that after 5 years of marriage and 2 kids was granted an annulment after a $10,000 contribution, that was over 20 years ago

Which is why I said it has become divorce by another name. I was giving the historical reasons. Like historical as in 200+ years ago.

[🏀]

That's a big one

Not that I would know.

[mu03eng]

Not that I would know.

God blesses some more than others

[Sir Lawrence]

not so sure about those reasons for anullments, I work with a guy that after 5 years of marriage and 2 kids was granted an annulment after a $10,000 contribution, that was over 20 years ago

You could ask the Kennedy clan, John Kerry and Rudolph Giuliani about RC annulments.  

[Lennys Tap]

homosexual marriage, not divorcing, no meat on Fridays, regular attendance of confession, not taking the lord's name in vain, etc.  Ya know, your basic venial sins.  I could probably create a whole list of church teachings (as I understand them) that I've seen countless catholics ignore.

No meat on Friday has been off the list of rules for decades. I don't think of swearing as being a "life decision", merely a bad and lazy habit. I don't agree with the official church stance on gay marriage or divorce, but like the "vast majority" of Catholics neither has been part of any personal "life decision". I'm unaware of the "regular attendance of confession" rule if there is one. I do know, though, that the sacrament hasn't been confession for decades - it's called reconciliation.

[Sir Lawrence]

No meat on Friday has been off the list of rules for decades.

This might surprise you, but technically it hasn't.  It is up to the local Bishop conference.  In some places in the world, giving up meat on Friday would amount to a meaningless requirement.  And in this country how much of a sacrifice is it really?  Shrimp scampi instead of meatloaf?  

What is still Canon law, however, is the requirement on each and every Friday to perform some kind of penance. Sincere, practicing Catholics who honestly do not know of this obligation are of course not culpable for failing to follow it, but the fact remains that it's still on the books.

Canon 1251
Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

[keefe]

That's a big one

That's what a Navy wife said to me...

[keefe]

This might surprise you, but technically it hasn't.  It is up to the local Bishop conference.  In some places in the world, giving up meat on Friday would amount to a meaningless requirement.  And in this country how much of a sacrifice is it really?  Shrimp scampi instead of meatloaf?  

What is still Canon law, however, is the requirement on each and every Friday to perform some kind of penance. Sincere, practicing Catholics who honestly do not know of this obligation are of course not culpable for failing to follow it, but the fact remains that it's still on the books.

Canon 1251
Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Somehow, I  am guessing St. Peter is laughing at the abstruse, pedantic nature of all of this...

[GGGG]

Somehow, I  am guessing St. Peter is laughing at the abstruse, pedantic nature of all of this...

Jesus wept.

[mu03eng]

That's what a Navy wife said to me...

Thank god you were you using the Zoomie personality as a form of birth control.  It is of course a natural form acceptable to the church

[Sir Lawrence]

Jesus wept.

I'd like to think that he saves his weeping for the victims of pedophiles wearing Roman Collars. 

[GGGG]

I'd like to think that he saves his weeping for the victims of pedophiles wearing Roman Collars. 

He probably weeps a lot.