Vander Blue versus Davante Gardner

[ATL MU Warrior]

Excellent point. Missed shots and turnovers no longer matter, right?

Sure, just like giving up easy baskets to the other team all night long no longer matters, right?

[Dr. Blackheart]

From Ken Pom in their last year for perspective as comparing stats between a guard and center are often not apples to apples.

Similar to Vander Blue: '09 Dwight Lewis (942), '11 Darius Johnson-Odom (919), '11 Ramone Moore (917), '12 Michael Snaer (911), '12 Mark Lyons (911)

Similar to Davante Gardner: '13 Romero Osby (904), '10 Quincy Pondexter (887), '10 Robin Smeulders (877), '12 Steven Idlet (875), '09 Anthony Vereen (870)

Who would you rather have?  Very close...obviously all of us would rather have both...but I like Blue's comps better.

[Henry Sugar]

Sure, just like giving up easy baskets to the other team all night long no longer matters, right?

You can do better

Frankly, I blame Buzz's crappy defensive scheme more than anything for Gardner's defense. Paint Touches are bullcrap.

[Henry Sugar]

From Ken Pom in their last year for perspective as comparing stats between a guard and center are often not apples to apples.

Similar to Vander Blue: '09 Dwight Lewis (942), '11 Darius Johnson-Odom (919), '11 Ramone Moore (917), '12 Michael Snaer (911), '12 Mark Lyons (911)

Similar to Davante Gardner: '13 Romero Osby (904), '10 Quincy Pondexter (887), '10 Robin Smeulders (877), '12 Steven Idlet (875), '09 Anthony Vereen (870)

Who would you rather have?  Very close...obviously all of us would rather have both...but I like Blue's comps better.

Doc, do you really take Vander's one season over four seasons from Gardner? If so, based on what objective criteria?

Also, I note that Gardner as a junior compares to    '14 JayVaughn Pinkston (861) and '10 Matt Howard (858)

[Dr. Blackheart]

Doc, do you really take Vander's one season over four seasons from Gardner? If so, based on what objective criteria?

Also, I note that Gardner as a junior compares to    '14 JayVaughn Pinkston (861) and '10 Matt Howard (858)

Together, the trio hit  S16, S16 and E8.  Apart, DG's senior year, nada.  That is the part I cannot get by. The fact is, Vander's ability to crease the seam was something DG missed last year.  Vander made everyone around him better...sometimes with heart, or times with ability, other times with both.  He was a gamer...I will never that blow out in Florida...only guy on the team to show up, including the head coach.

Vander could stand alone on both ends of the floor, Gardner couldn't.  Love them both, though as players.

[GGGG]

You can do better

Frankly, I blame Buzz's crappy defensive scheme more than anything for Gardner's defense. Paint Touches are bullcrap.

Frankly, *you* can do better.

Gardner had a ton of trouble guarding either true centers or athletic power forwards.  Most of this was because he is undersized, but there was a legitimate reason why Buzz subbed him out in defensive situations.  He simply wasn't that good a defender.

[WarriorFan]

In a game of HORSE I'd take Davante.

[Golden Avalanche]

Together, the trio hit  S16, S16 and E8.  Apart, DG's senior year, nada.  That is the part I cannot get by. The fact is, Vander's ability to crease the seam was something DG missed last year.  Vander made everyone around him better...sometimes with heart, or times with ability, other times with both.  He was a gamer...I will never that blow out in Florida...only guy on the team to show up, including the head coach.

Vander could stand alone on both ends of the floor, Gardner couldn't.  Love them both, though as players.

The revolution of the stat nerd over the last decade has never found an appropriate way to account for the bolded. They've tried, and there are "metrics" I'm sure will be produced, but it will never stand the test that eyeballs have for decades previously.

[Henry Sugar]

Together, the trio hit  S16, S16 and E8.  Apart, DG's senior year, nada.  That is the part I cannot get by. The fact is, Vander's ability to crease the seam was something DG missed last year.  Vander made everyone around him better...sometimes with heart, or times with ability, other times with both.  He was a gamer...I will never that blow out in Florida...only guy on the team to show up, including the head coach.

Vander could stand alone on both ends of the floor, Gardner couldn't.  Love them both, though as players.

Fair enough, but I have a few points too. The first S16 team had DJO, Crowder, and JFB. The second S16 had Crowder and DJO too. The E8 run was fueled as much by Jamil's late season surge as it was Vander's late season surge. Gardner was a contributor on all those teams too. Let's not overstate Vander's or Gardner's impact on any of those.

As for the senior year, is that really Gardner's fault? I attribute it more to the complete lack of a viable back court.

[GGGG]

The revolution of the stat nerd over the last decade has never found an appropriate way to account for the bolded. They've tried, and there are "metrics" I'm sure will be produced, but it will never stand the test that eyeballs have for decades previously.

Not just that, but you simply can't create a stat that adequately accounts for defense, a problem especially for those who guard on the perimeter.  

[NersEllenson]

Fair enough, but I have a few points too. The first S16 team had DJO, Crowder, and JFB. The second S16 had Crowder and DJO too. The E8 run was fueled as much by Jamil's late season surge as it was Vander's late season surge. Gardner was a contributor on all those teams too. Let's not overstate Vander's or Gardner's impact on any of those.

As for the senior year, is that really Gardner's fault? I attribute it more to the complete lack of a viable back court.

How dare you?  Gardner and Jamil simply failed to step up and be "leaders."  True leaders can overcome playing with guards who cannot shoot the ball from outside 2 feet (in once case) and inside 21 feet (in the other case.) 

I'm still waiting for someone to make the case for how Blue was such an incredible defender?  He doesn't take charges, doesn't block shots, doesn't have a steal percentage in the Top 1000 players of college basketball in his best year (junior), yet he's this elite, lockdown type of defender?

But hey, let's just ignore that 1 guy finished in the Top 100 of 9 offenseive categories, while the other player didn't finish in the Top 100 in ONE category...offensively or defensively.

Uh okay.  Vander Blue was a better college player than Gardner.  LOL. 

[Henry Sugar]

Frankly, *you* can do better.

Gardner had a ton of trouble guarding either true centers or athletic power forwards.  Most of this was because he is undersized, but there was a legitimate reason why Buzz subbed him out in defensive situations.  He simply wasn't that good a defender.

Look, I agree that he wasn't that good defensively. I was annoyed with "easy" baskets "all night long". That's a gross exaggeration.

Buzz also subbed Gardner out in defensive situations because there was a better defensive option available to him.

Gardner was clearly so much better offensively, so the counter is "Vander played at both ends of the court".

So let's look at the defensive stats*:
Either there are no stats to show the defensive impact, or
Any stats that show defensive impact can be discredited.

So it becomes subjective. Or worse, people say, "don't show me stats. heart! toughness!"

They were both decent (not great) players that contributed to a great run in MU tournament history. Both players had flaws. I believe Gardner's consistently above average performances over four years make him the better college player.

*Nevermind that MU wasn't good defensively under Buzz and the one year they were was luck

[NersEllenson]

Not just that, but you simply can't create a stat that adequately accounts for defense, a problem especially for those who guard on the perimeter.  

LOL - NIce reach Sultan.  How about we start with steals?  Maybe charges taken?  Perhaps blocked shots?  I mean all players are playing the same game...if a guy is a really good defender, he should show up in these categories, right?

Yet I know you and some of the others dismissed Burton's defense last year, and suggested he should be on the bench due to his lack of "defense," yet they guy is a disruptive defender.  It's like you'd choose AJ Hawk as your linebacker of choice over a Ray Lewis.  One guy may be "assignment sure," the other guy is a force/disruptive and a playmaker.  Blue was NOT a playmaker on defense.  He was a solid on ball defender.  That's it.  Not great instincts.  Nothing more.

Why did Buzz flip the hell out the one time Vander took a charge in his college career?  Most "tough" guys are never afraid to take a charge, and most great defenders become very adept at it.  Blue was never tough, nor a great defender.  He was soft, yet tried* to act hard.

[ATL MU Warrior]

How dare you?  Gardner and Jamil simply failed to step up and be "leaders."  True leaders can overcome playing with guards who cannot shoot the ball from outside 2 feet (in once case) and inside 21 feet (in the other case.) 

I'm still waiting for someone to make the case for how Blue was such an incredible defender?  He doesn't take charges, doesn't block shots, doesn't have a steal percentage in the Top 1000 players of college basketball in his best year (junior), yet he's this elite, lockdown type of defender?

But hey, let's just ignore that 1 guy finished in the Top 100 of 9 offenseive categories, while the other player didn't finish in the Top 100 in ONE category...offensively or defensively.

Uh okay.  Vander Blue was a better college player than Gardner.  LOL. 

Remove the word "college" from the original question.  Who is better at the game of basketball?  Simple question, obvious answer.  That's all I am saying.

[ATL MU Warrior]

You can do better

Frankly, I blame Buzz's crappy defensive scheme more than anything for Gardner's defense. Paint Touches are bullcrap.

Now that I can wholeheartedly agree with, and I said as much during this past season.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Honestly, they were about equal IMHO. One was great on one side of the ball and terrible on the other. The other was above average on both. Some prefer offensive specialists, some prefer well rounded players.

I also didn't take the four vs. three years argument into account. I looked at it from who was the better basketball player period. College is a guard's game, I would take Blue every time. But I'd rather have both

[ATL MU Warrior]

Honestly, they were about equal IMHO. One was great on one side of the ball and terrible on the other. The other was above average on both. Some prefer offensive specialists, some prefer well rounded players.

I also didn't take the four vs. three years argument into account. I looked at it from who was the better basketball player period. College is a guard's game, I would take Blue every time. But I'd rather have both

Same here...better stated by you.

[Henry Sugar]

Not just that, but you simply can't create a stat that adequately accounts for defense, a problem especially for those who guard on the perimeter.  

/wonkish

Defensive rating is done by taking the overall team performance and then adjusting the credit for that to various players based on the defensive stats in the box score (fouls, DRs, steals, blocks).

There are views out there that another metric is the "shot guarded". In other words, when you guard a player, do their shots go in or not? Obviously, this defensive metric is not available in the box score.

There is nothing of which I am familiar that looks at denying a player the ball or proper rotations. This is the Dominic James senior year approach to defense and where we criticize Gardner's defense. I'm sure something exists.

I believe defensive contributions can be broken down to box score stats (available) + shots guarded (not available) + ball denial/rotations (not available)

====

The one approach that is available via the box score over-emphasizes on-ball defenders and post players. Unless a perimeter player gets steals or blocks, they are under-emphasized. However, the available approach also fairly gives credit to a player like Gardner for doing things like getting defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks. As maligned as his defense may be, he did still do those things on the court.

For his career, Vander's Offensive Rating was below average (96) and his box score defensive stats are marginal. Considering he may be under-emphasized with defensive stats, Vander still would have to have been exceptional at either guarding shots or denying touches to account for being sub-par offensively.

On the counter, Gardner was above average offensively (120) for his career. Considering his box score defense was more properly accounted for, his off-ball defense would have to have been awful to outweigh his offensive contributions and box score defense.

In summary, I find it implausible that the unavailable defensive stats would show both Blue exceptional enough to overcome his offensive limitations/box score defense and Gardner deficient enough to outweigh his offensive contributions/box score defense.

[GGGG]

LOL - NIce reach Sultan.  How about we start with steals?  Maybe charges taken?  Perhaps blocked shots?  I mean all players are playing the same game...if a guy is a really good defender, he should show up in these categories, right?

Yet I know you and some of the others dismissed Burton's defense last year, and suggested he should be on the bench due to his lack of "defense," yet they guy is a disruptive defender.  It's like you'd choose AJ Hawk as your linebacker of choice over a Ray Lewis.  One guy may be "assignment sure," the other guy is a force/disruptive and a playmaker.  Blue was NOT a playmaker on defense.  He was a solid on ball defender.  That's it.  Not great instincts.  Nothing more.

Why did Buzz flip the hell out the one time Vander took a charge in his college career?  Most "tough" guys are never afraid to take a charge, and most great defenders become very adept at it.  Blue was never tough, nor a great defender.  He was soft, yet tried* to act hard.

There are a few things to parse out of this...

First, steals and blocks are inadequate to judge someone's defense.  Hollinger even admits in his PER ratings that steals and blocks are not a great way to judge defense because it gives a greater weight to those who take chances on the perimeter and rim protecting defenders.  There are all sorts of basketball people who don't put any weight at all in steals and blocks to determine someone's defensive abilities.  Gregg Popovich, who knows a thing or two about defense, doesn't care much for either.  Bruce Bowen, who everyone acknowledges was a great defender, didn't put up gaudy stats at all on the defensive end.  

Second, no one uses "charges taken" to judge a players defense.  We all know what you did here.  You knew that Blue didn't take a lot of them so you threw it in there to bolster your argument.

And finally, your eye test is a complete failure if you think that Blue wasn't tough, didn't have great instincts and wasn't a playmaker.  He was actually all those things, and that's what made him a very good defender.  

(And your MLB comparison is silly.  No one would chose Hawk over Lewis.)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

(And your MLB NFL comparison is silly.  No one would chose Hawk over Lewis.)

FIFY

And actually I would. But that's because of the whole off the field stabbing thing.

[GGGG]

/wonkish

Defensive rating is done by taking the overall team performance and then adjusting the credit for that to various players based on the defensive stats in the box score (fouls, DRs, steals, blocks).

There are views out there that another metric is the "shot guarded". In other words, when you guard a player, do their shots go in or not? Obviously, this defensive metric is not available in the box score.

There is nothing of which I am familiar that looks at denying a player the ball or proper rotations. This is the Dominic James senior year approach to defense and where we criticize Gardner's defense. I'm sure something exists.

I believe defensive contributions can be broken down to box score stats (available) + shots guarded (not available) + ball denial/rotations (not available)

====

The one approach that is available via the box score over-emphasizes on-ball defenders and post players. Unless a perimeter player gets steals or blocks, they are under-emphasized. However, the available approach also fairly gives credit to a player like Gardner for doing things like getting defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks. As maligned as his defense may be, he did still do those things on the court.

For his career, Vander's Offensive Rating was below average (96) and his box score defensive stats are marginal. Considering he may be under-emphasized with defensive stats, Vander still would have to have been exceptional at either guarding shots or denying touches to account for being sub-par offensively.

On the counter, Gardner was above average offensively (120) for his career. Considering his box score defense was more properly accounted for, his off-ball defense would have to have been awful to outweigh his offensive contributions and box score defense.

In summary, I find it implausible that the unavailable defensive stats would show both Blue exceptional enough to overcome his offensive limitations/box score defense and Gardner deficient enough to outweigh his offensive contributions/box score defense.

OK now that is a reasonable response.  And I get what you are saying.

I started out in this subject saying that it is very difficult to judge who is better because you are judging two players, who played two different positions, and whose strengths and weaknesses are opposite of one another.  And I think this thread has proven that.

[GGGG]

FIFY

And actually I would. But that's because of the whole off the field stabbing thing.

MLB...middle linebacker.

[ATL MU Warrior]

/wonkish

Defensive rating is done by taking the overall team performance and then adjusting the credit for that to various players based on the defensive stats in the box score (fouls, DRs, steals, blocks).

There are views out there that another metric is the "shot guarded". In other words, when you guard a player, do their shots go in or not? Obviously, this defensive metric is not available in the box score.

There is nothing of which I am familiar that looks at denying a player the ball or proper rotations. This is the Dominic James senior year approach to defense and where we criticize Gardner's defense. I'm sure something exists.

I believe defensive contributions can be broken down to box score stats (available) + shots guarded (not available) + ball denial/rotations (not available)

====

The one approach that is available via the box score over-emphasizes on-ball defenders and post players. Unless a perimeter player gets steals or blocks, they are under-emphasized. However, the available approach also fairly gives credit to a player like Gardner for doing things like getting defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks. As maligned as his defense may be, he did still do those things on the court.

For his career, Vander's Offensive Rating was below average (96) and his box score defensive stats are marginal. Considering he may be under-emphasized with defensive stats, Vander still would have to have been exceptional at either guarding shots or denying touches to account for being sub-par offensively.

On the counter, Gardner was above average offensively (120) for his career. Considering his box score defense was more properly accounted for, his off-ball defense would have to have been awful to outweigh his offensive contributions and box score defense.

In summary, I find it implausible that the unavailable defensive stats would show both Blue exceptional enough to overcome his offensive limitations/box score defense and Gardner deficient enough to outweigh his offensive contributions/box score defense.

So how would one go about comparing the box score defensive stats for the two players in question (sorry I don't get very deep into the stats so I don't know) and what would be the best way to compare the two players apples to apples? 

[Henry Sugar]

So how would one go about comparing the box score defensive stats for the two players in question (sorry I don't get very deep into the stats so I don't know) and what would be the best way to compare the two players apples to apples? 

The defensive rating formula is all kinds of complex. It takes the team defense and then adjusts based on how many box score stats a player collects.

As Juniors
Gardner ORtg 123.0 / DRtg 93.6
Blue ORtg 106.7 / DRtg 98.1

As Sophs
Gardner ORtg 119.5 / DRtg 91.7
Blue ORtg 99.3 / DRtg 93.9

Again, Gardner's defensive impact is probably over-stated and Blue's defensive impact is probably under-stated. Even then, the gap between Gardner's offense and defense is so much larger than the gap between Blue's. I just don't see how unavailable defensive stats would move the advantage towards Blue.

As for the best way to compare apples to apples, well, that's the $10K question. Pudner invented "Value Add" to answer that question. PAWS40 (position adjusted win score / 40 minutes) is another metric that compares relative contribution against similar positions.

[Johnny B]

I'm just curious, who are these high profile coaches who admitted their game plan was to stop Jake?

Nobody