Scout 2015 Class Rankings updated today

[BCHoopster]

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Vander-Blue-76953

I would think he was a tad overrated.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I would think he was a tad overrated.

That's one service. He was completely unranked by another. He was RSCI #48 (a consensus ranking), which is more meaningful/helpful IMO. So while he was technically a 5* by Rivlas, going by consensus opinion he was probably correctly rated.

[GGGG]

I would think he was a tad overrated.

Do I need to haul out my post again that shows how Vander performed against those who were similarly ranked? 

[Lennys Tap]

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Vander-Blue-76953

When I use 5* I don't mean by one recruiting service, an outlier. I mean consensus. Today that would mean RSCI. Vander's was 48, most definitely not the ranking of a 5*.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

When was the last time we had a center raked like Heldt (#56 overall - #15 C)?  There have to have been centers ranked this high since Mac, but I don't remember any offhand.   Sure will be nice to have 2 legit centers (Fischer and Heldt) next year, but with Heldt able to learn and play without the pressure of having to start right away.

Seems like Wojo is going to have guys at every position that can shoot the ball and draw defenders.  Next year we could see a team that won't allow other teams to play zone and clog the lane.

I mean we haven't had him yet, but Luke Fischer was ranked right around where Heldt is currently. Above him if you look at RCSI

[BM1090]

I'm guessing Ners was referring to JJJ, who was a 5 star according to a couple services. He was a 4-star on most, however.

[GOO]

I mean we haven't had him yet, but Luke Fischer was ranked right around where Heldt is currently. Above him if you look at RCSI

I was thinking in terms of freshman.  But even if we count Fischer, when was the last time before Fischer?  Having two guys on the team ranked that high at the center position is impressive.  Nice that they are two class years apart as well.   I know ranking mean little, but just interesting to me as I can't remember anyone since Mac.

[wadesworld]

I was thinking in terms of freshman.  But even if we count Fischer, when was the last time before Fischer?  Having two guys on the team ranked that high at the center position is impressive.  Nice that they are two class years apart as well.   I know ranking mean little, but just interesting to me as I can't remember anyone since Mac.

Robert Jackson but we only had him for 1 year.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When I use 5* I don't mean by one recruiting service, an outlier. I mean consensus. Today that would mean RSCI. Vander's was 48, most definitely not the ranking of a 5*.

Agree....we also have to be careful that just because someone is rated a certain level one year, doesn't mean they would have that same rating in another year.  Some years are weaker or stronger than others...I'm speaking of number rating (i.e. 48th), not star rating.

Blue

ESPN 4 stars
Rivals 5 stars
247 sports  4 stars
Scout  4 stars

[BM1090]

JaJuan Johnson was RSCI #30 which is just outside 5* range

[Lennys Tap]

I mean we haven't had him yet, but Luke Fischer was ranked right around where Heldt is currently. Above him if you look at RCSI

Luke finished at #71 in the RSCI. It will be interesting to see where Matt ends up.

[NersEllenson]

I'm guessing Ners was referring to JJJ, who was a 5 star according to a couple services. He was a 4-star on most, however.

Correct.  JJJ was MU highest rated recruit in a long time.  Decidedly higher than Blue.  And Blue smoked him as far as minutes played as a freshman...and no one here disputes Blue was pretty awful as a freshman...yet Buzz kept playing him tons of minutes.  19 minutes per game (37 games played) as a freshman....AND Blue had guys like DJO and Bucyks in front of him...a far cry from Jake Thomas.   

JJJ?  13.5 minutes per game and only got into 21 games!  Highly doubt JJJ would have been worse than Vander as a freshman....and our team was losing last season at a much higher rate than was Vander's freshman team - yet Buzz still couldn't seem to find time for JJJ.  Very odd.

[MU82]

Luke finished at #71 in the RSCI. It will be interesting to see where Matt ends up.

I am far more interested in seeing where each of them ends up on the all-time list of outstanding Marquette big men.

[Johnny B]

Correct.  JJJ was MU highest rated recruit in a long time.  Decidedly higher than Blue.  And Blue smoked him as far as minutes played as a freshman...and no one here disputes Blue was pretty awful as a freshman...yet Buzz kept playing him tons of minutes.  19 minutes per game (37 games played) as a freshman....AND Blue had guys like DJO and Bucyks in front of him...a far cry from Jake Thomas.   

JJJ?  13.5 minutes per game and only got into 21 games!  Highly doubt JJJ would have been worse than Vander as a freshman....and our team was losing last season at a much higher rate than was Vander's freshman team - yet Buzz still couldn't seem to find time for JJJ.  Very odd.

JJJ also had some strong games and moments. Just boggles my mind why Buzz refused to play him.

[wadesworld]

Correct.  JJJ was MU highest rated recruit in a long time.  Decidedly higher than Blue.  And Blue smoked him as far as minutes played as a freshman...and no one here disputes Blue was pretty awful as a freshman...yet Buzz kept playing him tons of minutes.  19 minutes per game (37 games played) as a freshman....AND Blue had guys like DJO and Bucyks in front of him...a far cry from Jake Thomas.  

JJJ?  13.5 minutes per game and only got into 21 games!  Highly doubt JJJ would have been worse than Vander as a freshman....and our team was losing last season at a much higher rate than was Vander's freshman team - yet Buzz still couldn't seem to find time for JJJ.  Very odd.

Have had you on ignore and it has been refreshing, but saw Johnny Basketball's (hah) quote and thought I'd reply.  See, you see 1 side of the basketball court.  That's all you see, that's all you know, that's all you care about.  Unfortunately for you, there are 2 sides to the basketball court.  Vander Blue played as a freshman because he was an outstanding defender, which is the same reason JuJuan didn't play as a freshman, because he didn't get Bert's defensive scheme's.  Vander started on the same Team USA team (you know, the very best of the best high school basketball players) that Stone and Ellenson are playing for this summer because of his defensive abilities.  Sure Vander wasn't good offensively his freshman year.  He couldn't shoot, he couldn't make a contested layup, etc.  But he sure as heck could defend.  And if you can do that, Bert has proven that you will find the court.  Which is why he played.  And why JuJuan didn't play.

http://archive.usab.com/bios/blue_vander.html

Started all 5 games for Team USA U-18 team in their run to the FIBA U19 World Championship/gold medal.  Other backcourt players included LeBryan Nash, Austin Rivers, and Kyrie Irving.

But hey, none of that fits your narrative, so I'll put you back on ignore and let you carry on with spewing your random BS.

[NersEllenson]

Have had you on ignore and it has been refreshing, but saw Johnny Basketball's (hah) quote and thought I'd reply.  See, you see 1 side of the basketball court.  That's all you see, that's all you know, that's all you care about.  Unfortunately for you, there are 2 sides to the basketball court.  Vander Blue played as a freshman because he was an outstanding defender, which is the same reason JuJuan didn't play as a freshman, because he didn't get Bert's defensive scheme's.  Vander started on the same Team USA team that Stone and Ellenson are playing for this summer because of his defensive abilities.  Sure Vander wasn't good offensively his freshman year.  He couldn't shoot, he couldn't make a contested layup, etc.  But he sure as heck could defend.  And if you can do that, Bert has proven that you will find the court.  Which is why he played.  And why JuJuan didn't play.

I appreciate good defense if it actually is good defense.  Sadly our lockdown defenders last year weren't very lockdown.  And for how much they lockdown our offense - it wasn't worth it in any way, shape or form.  That was the most offensively inept starting lineup I'd seen in a long time for what was a consensus Top 20 team going into the year.

If the defensive lineup was getting the job done and it was leading to wins...I'd gladly acknowledge it - albeit it would be boring Dick Bennett type of basketball to watch. Yet, since we weren't winning games, and it was OBVIOUS to anyone with a clue we weren't going to win if Buzz didn't make major changes and play guys with more offensive talent - that's my beef with the defensive approach Buzz chose last season.

Plus none of his guys really seemed to get his wacky defensive concepts...as he had to resort to colored construction paper to try to get guys to understand what the hell he was asking/wanting.  Contrast that to a Bo Ryan or Jim Boheim.  LOL 

[tower912]

Plus none of his guys really seemed to get his wacky defensive concepts...as he had to resort to colored construction paper to try to get guys to understand what the hell he was asking/wanting. 

That is one of those perception things.   You view it as proof that Buzz was doing a lousy job of coaching.   I wonder why, with such a upperclassmen heavy rotation, after running the same schemes for the previous 5 successful seasons, did the guys on the floor, who had been doing the same thing for several years, need them?   Why did they need the help?     

   
Not an attack, just a different perception.   

[NersEllenson]

That is one of those perception things.   You view it as proof that Buzz was doing a lousy job of coaching.   I wonder why, with such a upperclassmen heavy rotation, after running the same schemes for the previous 5 successful seasons, did the guys on the floor, who had been doing the same thing for several years, need them?   Why did they need the help?     
   
Not an attack, just a different perception.   

My take?  Buzz lost that team so incredibly that it was total and complete chaos...and some of that was due to the hyper manic substitutions.  It is really hard to stay on top of who has who when you are rapid fire substituting - and for all the guys to even know what defensive concepts you may be emphasizing in that particular game.

Many of the guys weren't bought in/dialed in.  Also, Buzz's teams never were really good defensive teams - Buzz's excellence was on the Offensive End - other than last season his teams had always excelled from an offensive efficiency perspective.  Our defense under Buzz was always just middle of the road.

I may be wrong on the above take as well - but, to your point:  Given it was Buzz's most veteran team, it certainly should have been his most knowledgeable and aware of what his execution goals were defensively...and offensively for that matter.

[GGGG]

Buzz's defensive philosophy was to cause disruption on the defensive side...create turnovers.  It wasn't a "stop" defense.  There isn't anything terribly wrong about it.  High risk...high reward.  It worked wonders in 2011-12 and 2012-13.  Not so much last year.

[tower912]

Buzz's defensive philosophy, and the player's buy in, got Jimmy Butler to the NBA.    Remember the story Buzz told about Butler's understanding of all of the different ways to guard the pick and roll being a linchpin of the Bull's questions about Butler.    Butler understood them all.   It showed in the Xavier NCAA tourney game.   But Buzz had buy-in defensively from his senior leaders (and Blue) his previous season.   It appeared less so last year.    Which way did the causality go?    Was it Buzz doing something different, or was it a different bunch of seniors?

[tower912]

JJJ also had some strong games and moments. Just boggles my mind why Buzz refused to play him.

JJJ's season essentially ended when he came into a conference game with the opponent making a big run to come back from a large deficit.   He jacked up a 3 on his first touch.    No ball rotation, no reversal, no paint touch.   Dawson passed him the ball 5 seconds into the possession, he shot a no-conscience 3, and his season basically ended.   Personally, I understood why Buzz immediately yanked him from that game.  I WAS surprised his time in the coach's doghouse lasted the rest of the season.  I expected he would work his way back into Buzz's good graces.   Twas not to be.   

[hoyasincebirth]

Rivals updated their rankings yesterday:

#94 – Nick Noskowiak – 6'2 PG – Sun Prairie HS/Sun Prairie, WI - Marquette
#149 – Matt Heldt – 6'10 C – Neenah HS/Neenah, WI - Marquette

[LAZER]

Ellenson #17
Cheatham #68

[LAZER]

Rivals updated their rankings yesterday:

#94 – Nick Noskowiak – 6'2 PG – Sun Prairie HS/Sun Prairie, WI - Marquette
#149 – Matt Heldt – 6'10 C – Neenah HS/Neenah, WI - Marquette

Not often you see a player ranked almost 100 spots differently between Scout and Rivals.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Not often you see a player ranked almost 100 spots differently between Scout and Rivals.

That's why RSCI is the best indicator in my mind. It helps smooth outliers from both ends. For example, Blue was rated 24 by Rivals, but unranked by another and rated ~90 by another. That led to an RSCI rating of #48. IMO, he played at the level you would expect out of a guy rated #48 overall. People took his one 5* rating and used it to bash him his first two years, which was totally unfair to him.