MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: slack00 on August 26, 2014, 10:57:43 AM
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http://recruiting.scout.com/2/1438223.html#/2/1438223.html (http://recruiting.scout.com/2/1438223.html#/2/1438223.html)
Marquette in at #13 with Heldt (#56 overall - #15 C) and Noskowiak (#89 overall - #14 PG). Needless to say, adding H. Ellenson (#6 - #2 PF) and Cheatham (#80 overall - #25 SG) would be a home run of a class, not to mention the availability of W. Ellenson and G. Levin next year.
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http://recruiting.scout.com/2/1438223.html#/2/1438223.html (http://recruiting.scout.com/2/1438223.html#/2/1438223.html)
Marquette in at #13 with Heldt (#56 overall - #15 C) and Noskowiak (#89 overall - #14 PG). Needless to say, adding H. Ellenson (#6 - #2 PF) and Cheatham (#80 overall - #25 SG) would be a home run of a class, not to mention the availability of W. Ellenson and G. Levin next year.
Heldt was a value stock for us.
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http://recruiting.scout.com/2/1438223.html#/2/1438223.html (http://recruiting.scout.com/2/1438223.html#/2/1438223.html)
not to mention the availability of W. Ellenson and G. Levin next year.
If Wally ever plays significant minutes for us we are in deep trouble.
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If Wally ever plays significant minutes for us we are in deep trouble.
Have you seen Wally play a lot the last few years, dating back to when he was in high school? If so, please share some impressions of his game based on your extended observations of his abilities.
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If Wally ever plays significant minutes for us we are in deep trouble.
yeah, yeah...the same thing was said about jake thomas...oh, wait.
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If Wally ever plays significant minutes for us we are in deep trouble.
Really? This is the opposite of what I have been hearing.
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yeah, yeah...the same thing was said about jake thomas...oh, wait.
Are you saying take Thomas played a lot and actually was productive or jake Thomas played a lot and we actually were in trouble(we were). Jake Thomas could do nothing but hit an occasional 3 pt
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Are you saying take Thomas played a lot and actually was productive or jake Thomas played a lot and we actually were in trouble(we were). Jake Thomas could do nothing but hit an occasional 3 pt
we knew we were in trouble when we needed jake thomas to get the minutes he did.
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Really? This is the opposite of what I have been hearing.
I see him as a high energy guy off the bench - maybe 12-15 minutes a game. Just based on the couple times I have seen him play.
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we knew we were in trouble when we needed jake thomas to get the minutes he did.
Fact.
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we knew we were in trouble when we needed jake thomas to get the minutes he did.
We didn't need him to get the minutes he did, that was Buzz's decision. There were other options.
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We didn't need him to get the minutes he did, that was Buzz's decision. There were other options.
Precisely
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We didn't need him to get the minutes he did, that was Buzz's decision. There were other options.
I've accepted that for other players but not for Jake. Our three point shooting was so terrible last season that we had no choice but to play Jake.
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I find it funny that we blame buzz for playing Thomas over mayo when it became very clear quickly that wojo had no place on this team for Mayo.
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Are you saying take Thomas played a lot and actually was productive or jake Thomas played a lot and we actually were in trouble(we were). Jake Thomas could do nothing but hit an occasional 3 pt
You really needed to ask?
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I find it funny that we blame buzz for playing Thomas over mayo when it became very clear quickly that wojo had no place on this team for Mayo.
I find it funny that we didn't have other, better, options. Oh wait….
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I find it funny that we blame buzz for playing Thomas over mayo when it became very clear quickly that wojo had no place on this team for Mayo.
You miss the point of the Mayo narrative. There is a LOT more to that saga.
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If so, please share some impressions of his game based on your extended observations of his abilities.
Didn't say anything about "extended" observations, Mr. Ellenson. Simply my opinion, an eye test of the few times I've seen him play plus input from my media friend who has seen him play extensively. Great athlete, awesome vertical - no mid-range, mediocre handle and no right hand. My opinion would be that Cohen would see those kind of 10-15 minutes next year instead of Ellensen.
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When was the last time we had a center raked like Heldt (#56 overall - #15 C)? There have to have been centers ranked this high since Mac, but I don't remember any offhand. Sure will be nice to have 2 legit centers (Fischer and Heldt) next year, but with Heldt able to learn and play without the pressure of having to start right away.
Seems like Wojo is going to have guys at every position that can shoot the ball and draw defenders. Next year we could see a team that won't allow other teams to play zone and clog the lane.
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Didn't say anything about "extended" observations, Mr. Ellenson. Simply my opinion, an eye test of the few times I've seen him play plus input from my media friend who has seen him play extensively. Great athlete, awesome vertical - no mid-range, mediocre handle and no right hand. My opinion would be that Cohen would see those kind of 10-15 minutes next year instead of Ellensen.
Mr. Ellenson. Precious.
Aside from this unnecessary snideness, thanks for explaining your viewpoint instead of just firing off an unexplained opinion, as you did the first time.
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We didn't need him to get the minutes he did, that was Buzz's decision. There were other options.
+1 - As there were at other positions. Even if you people want to say Mayo's attitude was the issue for him not playing - Burton and Dawson - had great attitudes. JJJ did as well, until January when Buzz decided to bury him on the bench.
Nothing quite like being a 5-star recruit as a shooting guard and seeing the guy in front of you being simply unable to make a 2 point FG...okay...a slight exaggeration...but Jake made 9, 2pt FGs all year. That is not getting it done in any way, shape or form as a starting shooting guard at this level.
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So the best point on Wally is that he has room to improve. He will have a year and a half to do that, lets see how the coaches improve his game. If you have athletic ability witch he has, 7
foot high jumper, I am sure if he wants he can be coached up. More importantly, he gets along with his brother and want to hang together at MU.
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I find it funny that we blame buzz for playing Thomas over mayo when it became very clear quickly that wojo had no place on this team for Mayo.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this one, though there are kernels of truth to it. He made his own bed and the former coach helped to put the sheets and comforter on it.
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Nothing quite like being a 5-star recruit as a shooting guard and seeing the guy in front of you being simply unable to make a 2 point FG...okay...a slight exaggeration...but Jake made 9, 2pt FGs all year. That is not getting it done in any way, shape or form as a starting shooting guard at this level.
5-star recruit at shooting guard? Who? Our last 5-star recruit at shooting guard was Butch Lee.
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Our last 5-star recruit at shooting guard was Butch Lee.
http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Vander-Blue-76953
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http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Vander-Blue-76953
I would think he was a tad overrated.
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I would think he was a tad overrated.
That's one service. He was completely unranked by another. He was RSCI #48 (a consensus ranking), which is more meaningful/helpful IMO. So while he was technically a 5* by Rivlas, going by consensus opinion he was probably correctly rated.
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I would think he was a tad overrated.
Do I need to haul out my post again that shows how Vander performed against those who were similarly ranked?
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http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Vander-Blue-76953
When I use 5* I don't mean by one recruiting service, an outlier. I mean consensus. Today that would mean RSCI. Vander's was 48, most definitely not the ranking of a 5*.
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When was the last time we had a center raked like Heldt (#56 overall - #15 C)? There have to have been centers ranked this high since Mac, but I don't remember any offhand. Sure will be nice to have 2 legit centers (Fischer and Heldt) next year, but with Heldt able to learn and play without the pressure of having to start right away.
Seems like Wojo is going to have guys at every position that can shoot the ball and draw defenders. Next year we could see a team that won't allow other teams to play zone and clog the lane.
I mean we haven't had him yet, but Luke Fischer was ranked right around where Heldt is currently. Above him if you look at RCSI
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I'm guessing Ners was referring to JJJ, who was a 5 star according to a couple services. He was a 4-star on most, however.
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I mean we haven't had him yet, but Luke Fischer was ranked right around where Heldt is currently. Above him if you look at RCSI
I was thinking in terms of freshman. But even if we count Fischer, when was the last time before Fischer? Having two guys on the team ranked that high at the center position is impressive. Nice that they are two class years apart as well. I know ranking mean little, but just interesting to me as I can't remember anyone since Mac.
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I was thinking in terms of freshman. But even if we count Fischer, when was the last time before Fischer? Having two guys on the team ranked that high at the center position is impressive. Nice that they are two class years apart as well. I know ranking mean little, but just interesting to me as I can't remember anyone since Mac.
Robert Jackson but we only had him for 1 year.
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When I use 5* I don't mean by one recruiting service, an outlier. I mean consensus. Today that would mean RSCI. Vander's was 48, most definitely not the ranking of a 5*.
Agree....we also have to be careful that just because someone is rated a certain level one year, doesn't mean they would have that same rating in another year. Some years are weaker or stronger than others...I'm speaking of number rating (i.e. 48th), not star rating.
Blue
ESPN 4 stars
Rivals 5 stars
247 sports 4 stars
Scout 4 stars
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JaJuan Johnson was RSCI #30 which is just outside 5* range
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I mean we haven't had him yet, but Luke Fischer was ranked right around where Heldt is currently. Above him if you look at RCSI
Luke finished at #71 in the RSCI. It will be interesting to see where Matt ends up.
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I'm guessing Ners was referring to JJJ, who was a 5 star according to a couple services. He was a 4-star on most, however.
Correct. JJJ was MU highest rated recruit in a long time. Decidedly higher than Blue. And Blue smoked him as far as minutes played as a freshman...and no one here disputes Blue was pretty awful as a freshman...yet Buzz kept playing him tons of minutes. 19 minutes per game (37 games played) as a freshman....AND Blue had guys like DJO and Bucyks in front of him...a far cry from Jake Thomas. ::)
JJJ? 13.5 minutes per game and only got into 21 games! Highly doubt JJJ would have been worse than Vander as a freshman....and our team was losing last season at a much higher rate than was Vander's freshman team - yet Buzz still couldn't seem to find time for JJJ. Very odd.
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Luke finished at #71 in the RSCI. It will be interesting to see where Matt ends up.
I am far more interested in seeing where each of them ends up on the all-time list of outstanding Marquette big men.
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Correct. JJJ was MU highest rated recruit in a long time. Decidedly higher than Blue. And Blue smoked him as far as minutes played as a freshman...and no one here disputes Blue was pretty awful as a freshman...yet Buzz kept playing him tons of minutes. 19 minutes per game (37 games played) as a freshman....AND Blue had guys like DJO and Bucyks in front of him...a far cry from Jake Thomas. ::)
JJJ? 13.5 minutes per game and only got into 21 games! Highly doubt JJJ would have been worse than Vander as a freshman....and our team was losing last season at a much higher rate than was Vander's freshman team - yet Buzz still couldn't seem to find time for JJJ. Very odd.
JJJ also had some strong games and moments. Just boggles my mind why Buzz refused to play him.
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Correct. JJJ was MU highest rated recruit in a long time. Decidedly higher than Blue. And Blue smoked him as far as minutes played as a freshman...and no one here disputes Blue was pretty awful as a freshman...yet Buzz kept playing him tons of minutes. 19 minutes per game (37 games played) as a freshman....AND Blue had guys like DJO and Bucyks in front of him...a far cry from Jake Thomas. ::)
JJJ? 13.5 minutes per game and only got into 21 games! Highly doubt JJJ would have been worse than Vander as a freshman....and our team was losing last season at a much higher rate than was Vander's freshman team - yet Buzz still couldn't seem to find time for JJJ. Very odd.
Have had you on ignore and it has been refreshing, but saw Johnny Basketball's (hah) quote and thought I'd reply. See, you see 1 side of the basketball court. That's all you see, that's all you know, that's all you care about. Unfortunately for you, there are 2 sides to the basketball court. Vander Blue played as a freshman because he was an outstanding defender, which is the same reason JuJuan didn't play as a freshman, because he didn't get Bert's defensive scheme's. Vander started on the same Team USA team (you know, the very best of the best high school basketball players) that Stone and Ellenson are playing for this summer because of his defensive abilities. Sure Vander wasn't good offensively his freshman year. He couldn't shoot, he couldn't make a contested layup, etc. But he sure as heck could defend. And if you can do that, Bert has proven that you will find the court. Which is why he played. And why JuJuan didn't play.
http://archive.usab.com/bios/blue_vander.html
Started all 5 games for Team USA U-18 team in their run to the FIBA U19 World Championship/gold medal. Other backcourt players included LeBryan Nash, Austin Rivers, and Kyrie Irving.
But hey, none of that fits your narrative, so I'll put you back on ignore and let you carry on with spewing your random BS.
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Have had you on ignore and it has been refreshing, but saw Johnny Basketball's (hah) quote and thought I'd reply. See, you see 1 side of the basketball court. That's all you see, that's all you know, that's all you care about. Unfortunately for you, there are 2 sides to the basketball court. Vander Blue played as a freshman because he was an outstanding defender, which is the same reason JuJuan didn't play as a freshman, because he didn't get Bert's defensive scheme's. Vander started on the same Team USA team that Stone and Ellenson are playing for this summer because of his defensive abilities. Sure Vander wasn't good offensively his freshman year. He couldn't shoot, he couldn't make a contested layup, etc. But he sure as heck could defend. And if you can do that, Bert has proven that you will find the court. Which is why he played. And why JuJuan didn't play.
I appreciate good defense if it actually is good defense. Sadly our lockdown defenders last year weren't very lockdown. And for how much they lockdown our offense - it wasn't worth it in any way, shape or form. That was the most offensively inept starting lineup I'd seen in a long time for what was a consensus Top 20 team going into the year.
If the defensive lineup was getting the job done and it was leading to wins...I'd gladly acknowledge it - albeit it would be boring Dick Bennett type of basketball to watch. Yet, since we weren't winning games, and it was OBVIOUS to anyone with a clue we weren't going to win if Buzz didn't make major changes and play guys with more offensive talent - that's my beef with the defensive approach Buzz chose last season.
Plus none of his guys really seemed to get his wacky defensive concepts...as he had to resort to colored construction paper to try to get guys to understand what the hell he was asking/wanting. Contrast that to a Bo Ryan or Jim Boheim. LOL
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Plus none of his guys really seemed to get his wacky defensive concepts...as he had to resort to colored construction paper to try to get guys to understand what the hell he was asking/wanting.
That is one of those perception things. You view it as proof that Buzz was doing a lousy job of coaching. I wonder why, with such a upperclassmen heavy rotation, after running the same schemes for the previous 5 successful seasons, did the guys on the floor, who had been doing the same thing for several years, need them? Why did they need the help?
Not an attack, just a different perception.
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That is one of those perception things. You view it as proof that Buzz was doing a lousy job of coaching. I wonder why, with such a upperclassmen heavy rotation, after running the same schemes for the previous 5 successful seasons, did the guys on the floor, who had been doing the same thing for several years, need them? Why did they need the help?
Not an attack, just a different perception.
My take? Buzz lost that team so incredibly that it was total and complete chaos...and some of that was due to the hyper manic substitutions. It is really hard to stay on top of who has who when you are rapid fire substituting - and for all the guys to even know what defensive concepts you may be emphasizing in that particular game.
Many of the guys weren't bought in/dialed in. Also, Buzz's teams never were really good defensive teams - Buzz's excellence was on the Offensive End - other than last season his teams had always excelled from an offensive efficiency perspective. Our defense under Buzz was always just middle of the road.
I may be wrong on the above take as well - but, to your point: Given it was Buzz's most veteran team, it certainly should have been his most knowledgeable and aware of what his execution goals were defensively...and offensively for that matter.
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Buzz's defensive philosophy was to cause disruption on the defensive side...create turnovers. It wasn't a "stop" defense. There isn't anything terribly wrong about it. High risk...high reward. It worked wonders in 2011-12 and 2012-13. Not so much last year.
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Buzz's defensive philosophy, and the player's buy in, got Jimmy Butler to the NBA. Remember the story Buzz told about Butler's understanding of all of the different ways to guard the pick and roll being a linchpin of the Bull's questions about Butler. Butler understood them all. It showed in the Xavier NCAA tourney game. But Buzz had buy-in defensively from his senior leaders (and Blue) his previous season. It appeared less so last year. Which way did the causality go? Was it Buzz doing something different, or was it a different bunch of seniors?
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JJJ also had some strong games and moments. Just boggles my mind why Buzz refused to play him.
JJJ's season essentially ended when he came into a conference game with the opponent making a big run to come back from a large deficit. He jacked up a 3 on his first touch. No ball rotation, no reversal, no paint touch. Dawson passed him the ball 5 seconds into the possession, he shot a no-conscience 3, and his season basically ended. Personally, I understood why Buzz immediately yanked him from that game. I WAS surprised his time in the coach's doghouse lasted the rest of the season. I expected he would work his way back into Buzz's good graces. Twas not to be.
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Rivals updated their rankings yesterday:
#94 – Nick Noskowiak – 6’2 PG – Sun Prairie HS/Sun Prairie, WI - Marquette
#149 – Matt Heldt – 6’10 C – Neenah HS/Neenah, WI - Marquette
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Ellenson #17
Cheatham #68
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Rivals updated their rankings yesterday:
#94 – Nick Noskowiak – 6’2 PG – Sun Prairie HS/Sun Prairie, WI - Marquette
#149 – Matt Heldt – 6’10 C – Neenah HS/Neenah, WI - Marquette
Not often you see a player ranked almost 100 spots differently between Scout and Rivals.
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Not often you see a player ranked almost 100 spots differently between Scout and Rivals.
That's why RSCI is the best indicator in my mind. It helps smooth outliers from both ends. For example, Blue was rated 24 by Rivals, but unranked by another and rated ~90 by another. That led to an RSCI rating of #48. IMO, he played at the level you would expect out of a guy rated #48 overall. People took his one 5* rating and used it to bash him his first two years, which was totally unfair to him.
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Rivals updated their rankings yesterday:
#94 – Nick Noskowiak – 6’2 PG – Sun Prairie HS/Sun Prairie, WI - Marquette
#149 – Matt Heldt – 6’10 C – Neenah HS/Neenah, WI - Marquette
Ellenson #17
Cheatham #68
You sure these aren't ESPN's rankings? Big East bias, ranking all the guys Marquette is in on as low as I have seen (besides for Cheatham).
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JJJ's season essentially ended when he came into a conference game with the opponent making a big run to come back from a large deficit. He jacked up a 3 on his first touch. No ball rotation, no reversal, no paint touch. Dawson passed him the ball 5 seconds into the possession, he shot a no-conscience 3, and his season basically ended. Personally, I understood why Buzz immediately yanked him from that game. I WAS surprised his time in the coach's doghouse lasted the rest of the season. I expected he would work his way back into Buzz's good graces. Twas not to be.
Most good coaches would have removed JJJ, taken a minute to talk to him (or have a top assistant do it) and then put him back in awhile later to let him prove he understood the lesson. If the problem did not resolve over the course of another game or three, then a longer benching would be in order.
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I thought he was done for the game. Being basically done for the rest of the season was overkill, IMO. But I don't know what was transpiring at practices.
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You sure these aren't ESPN's rankings? Big East bias, ranking all the guys Marquette is in on as low as I have seen (besides for Cheatham).
Rivals is awful. They do their first set of rankings and don't alter them much the rest of the way. Scout, 247 and even ESPN are better.
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Rivals is awful. They do their first set of rankings and don't alter them much the rest of the way. Scout, 247 and even ESPN are better.
Sorry my comment was tongue in cheek.
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Sorry my comment was tongue in cheek.
No, I know. Just was relaying a general observation of mine. Probably shouldn't have quoted your post.
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I know it's crazy but I actually like the ESPN rankings most of the time. Except for how I believe Jalen Brunson is criminally underrated. But that's probably just my personal bias.
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I know it's crazy but I actually like the ESPN rankings most of the time. Except for how I believe Jalen Brunson is criminally underrated. But that's probably just my personal bias.
Yes i put my trust in ESPN then 247 for recruits, scout and rivals just seem inconsistent
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Rivals is awful. They do their first set of rankings and don't alter them much the rest of the way. Scout, 247 and even ESPN are better.
They are making a major push to change all that. They got way behind, but now Eric Winter is running the show over there. Winter is a former colleague, bull in the china shop type that will go crazy to get it fixed. He had a fairly public meeting with Yahoo's CEO the other day about their renewed efforts to make rivals viable again.
We shall see.