Spurs VS Heat rematch

[wadesworld]

That's surprising. Well, you think showboating, I'm thinking showmanship. Just a little something to keep us interested.

Again, just my personal preference.  I know LeBron James is not the only one who does it.  Far from it.

[RushmoreAcademy]

I must admit, five years later I can't figure out why people are still so bothered by what essentially was a dumb PR stunt.  

If anything, you have to admire the fact that they pretty much put their money where their mouth is.  They will either have a 14-2 or a 15-1, playoff series record after this year.  That's pretty damn good.  And it's not like they are in your face about it either.  

I know it's not their fault, but the Heat are definitely in our face... even though other people put them there.  ESPN's Heat Index?  Every article about what Lebron thinks about x, y, and z not relating to Lebron.
In every sport there is a team I enjoy rooting against.  For the NBA it just happens to be the Heat.  Helps that they are also a Bulls rival and I'm a Bulls fan.

[brandx]

So he's honest, (and correct BTW...He's frankly already up there), and you don't like that? You think MJ wouldn't say he belongs on Mt. Rushmore? Never have and never will understand people's distaste for LeBron. He's as good a player that has ever played the game, yet has this completely faulty reputation among a segment of the population that when pressed seem to only come up with the decision, or, "I just don't like the guy."

Sorry you are just wrong. He is not as good as anyone who has ever played the game. He is not as good as MJ (not even close), not as good as guys like Kareem and Wilt who were so good that the rules had to be changed to make the game fair for everyone else, not as good as Russell.

He has put himself in the conversation with the next level - Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan. And it is very possible he will be in the top 5 of all time before he is done (3 or 4 more years of continued excellence).

[forgetful]

Sorry you are just wrong. He is not as good as anyone who has ever played the game. He is not as good as MJ (not even close), not as good as guys like Kareem and Wilt who were so good that the rules had to be changed to make the game fair for everyone else, not as good as Russell.

He has put himself in the conversation with the next level - Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan. And it is very possible he will be in the top 5 of all time before he is done (3 or 4 more years of continued excellence).

Admittedly I am not a big Lebron fan.  I agree with all of this.  The key is a simple question.

If you can chose between the following people.  You can pick one to build your team around, who do you pick.

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe

I'm definitely not picking Lebron.  Just from this list, I would pick MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Magic, and Duncan to build my team around before Lebron.  I would likely pick him before Kobe.

Part of the reason is that I don't view Lebron as really being a team player, he's more about himself.  The people above make everyone on the team around them better…I don't see the same for Lebron.

I would like to see Lebron have to have played in the Magic/Bird/MJ era.  I honestly don't think he would have been anywhere near the same type of player.  Imagine him going up agains the Old Pistons, where they would beat him into submission.  I don't think he could handle that type of era…

[NavinRJohnson]

You guys are crazy. He's better than most of those guys for one simple reason that is almost always over looked in these discussions...the guy can guard all five positions...well. That alone makes him the best defensive player on that list. He can also score from anywhere on the court, pretty much any time.

As for him being all about himself, and not making others around him better, what are you talking about? Dwayne Wade can barely walk anymore, Chris Bosh is really not a very good player, yet he produces. Ray Allen turned 72 last week, and still helps that team.

They changed the rules because of some of those guys...that's true, but lets get real, had LeBron come long at that time instead, they would have had to change the rules because of him too, so that isn't really much of an argument.

People like some of you continue to let your opinion of the guy personally cloud what you see (or perhaps dont actually see) on the court. The fact that someone would say he's "not even close" to as good as MJ, says a bit about the validity of the opinion. Better? No (not yet anyway). Not even close? You're fooling yourself.

[forgetful]

You guys are crazy. He's better than most of those guys for one simple reason that is almost always over looked in these discussions...the guy can guard all five positions...well. That alone makes him the best defensive player on that list. He can also score from anywhere on the court, pretty much any time.

As for him being all about himself, and not making others around him better, what are you talking about? Dwayne Wade can barely walk anymore, Chris Bosh is really not a very good player, yet he produces. Ray Allen turned 72 last week, and still helps that team.

They changed the rules because of some of those guys...that's true, but lets get real, had LeBron come long at that time instead, they would have had to change the rules because of him too, so that isn't really much of an argument.

People like some of you continue to let your opinion of the guy personally cloud what you see (or perhaps dont actually see) on the court. The fact that someone would say he's "not even close" to as good as MJ, says a bit about the validity of the opinion. Better? No (not yet anyway). Not even close? You're fooling yourself.

Go watch Game 5 of the Indiana series again.  Last play of the game where he kicks it out to Bosh.  People criticized him for giving up the ball, but they missed the bigger issue.

They put Hibbert on Lebron's right side (guarding his right hand).  Lebrons defender let him go left if he wanted to, where the lane was open and only one offense player on that side (closely guarded by defender).  If he would have went Left, he had the entire lane, but didn't.

Lebron can't go left very well…it has always been a weakness of his and as far as defense is concerned, in my opinion he is highly over-rated.  He has flashy shot-blocking ability and he can guard 5-positions, but really doesn't excel at guarding any of them.  His lateral quickness isn't good enough.  Straight line speed, great for a man his size, but lateral quickness more of a struggle.  That is why people liken him to a bull in a china shop.

That said he is still an all time great, just not a top 5 all time player. 

[reinko]

You guys are crazy. He's better than most of those guys for one simple reason that is almost always over looked in these discussions...the guy can guard all five positions...well. That alone makes him the best defensive player on that list. He can also score from anywhere on the court, pretty much any time.

As for him being all about himself, and not making others around him better, what are you talking about? Dwayne Wade can barely walk anymore, Chris Bosh is really not a very good player, yet he produces. Ray Allen turned 72 last week, and still helps that team.

They changed the rules because of some of those guys...that's true, but lets get real, had LeBron come long at that time instead, they would have had to change the rules because of him too, so that isn't really much of an argument.

People like some of you continue to let your opinion of the guy personally cloud what you see (or perhaps dont actually see) on the court. The fact that someone would say he's "not even close" to as good as MJ, says a bit about the validity of the opinion. Better? No (not yet anyway). Not even close? You're fooling yourself.

+ a gajillion

Not a LeBron fan,  wished ill will on him after the whole decision thing,  but this whole not a team player thing,  good Lord,  look what he had to do with those dumpster fire teams in Cleveland.  The best player he ever played his first 7 years was Drew Gooden,  yeah,  Drew unnatural carnal knowledgein Gooden.   So yeah,  he might need to be the man.

As for all that other BS about getting 50 points, or jumping on a scorers table,  Jordan,  in a real game,  not practice, shot a free throw with his eyes closed.   If you judging guys a jag bag behavior, cmon.   And with all mega stars,  you could find instances of them doing stupid crap like that.

When Bron retires with around 7 or 8 rings,  lock this down,  there will be a legitimate debate about who was better,  him or Jordan.  Guess we will see.

[forgetful]

+ a gajillion

Not a LeBron fan,  wished ill will on him after the whole decision thing,  but this whole not a team player thing,  good Lord,  look what he had to do with those dumpster fire teams in Cleveland.  The best player he ever played his first 7 years was Drew Gooden,  yeah,  Drew unnatural carnal knowledgein Gooden.   So yeah,  he might need to be the man.

As for all that other BS about getting 50 points, or jumping on a scorers table,  Jordan,  in a real game,  not practice, shot a free throw with his eyes closed.   If you judging guys a jag bag behavior, cmon.   And with all mega stars,  you could find instances of them doing stupid crap like that.

When Bron retires with around 7 or 8 rings,  lock this down,  there will be a legitimate debate about who was better,  him or Jordan.  Guess we will see.

He also played with Mo Williams (An All-star), Big Z (also an All-star) and Shaq (ok he was old at this point).

[brandx]

+ a gajillion

Not a LeBron fan,  wished ill will on him after the whole decision thing,  but this whole not a team player thing,  good Lord,  look what he had to do with those dumpster fire teams in Cleveland.  The best player he ever played his first 7 years was Drew Gooden,  yeah,  Drew unnatural carnal knowledgein Gooden.   So yeah,  he might need to be the man.

As for all that other BS about getting 50 points, or jumping on a scorers table,  Jordan,  in a real game,  not practice, shot a free throw with his eyes closed.   If you judging guys a jag bag behavior, cmon.   And with all mega stars,  you could find instances of them doing stupid crap like that.

When Bron retires with around 7 or 8 rings,  lock this down,  there will be a legitimate debate about who was better,  him or Jordan.  Guess we will see.

I said Lebron may be good enough to be considered one of the top 5 players of all time and I'm knocking him?

But as much as I hate the Bulls, Lebron is no MJ. Period. Not offensively and not defensively.

[wadesworld]

I said Lebron may be good enough to be considered one of the top 5 players of all time and I'm knocking him?

But as much as I hate the Bulls, Lebron is no MJ. Period. Not offensively and not defensively.

Agreed.  Never said he wasn't an insanely talented player.  He's the best in the world right now.  I just personally do not like how he plays and how he carries himself.  I never liked Jordan either.  But LeBron is not Jordan.

[brandx]

Agreed.  Never said he wasn't an insanely talented player.  He's the best in the world right now.  I just personally do not like how he plays and how he carries himself.  I never liked Jordan either.  But LeBron is not Jordan.

I used to feel the same way, but think Lebron has gotten much better as he has matured.

I try to cut them a little slack as they were all primadonnas in HS. Takes a while for some to grow up. Some never do - but I think Lebron has made an effort to recognize & respect the history of the game. Got a ways to go, but he has gotten better since the first 2 years in Miami.

[GGGG]

I know it's not their fault, but the Heat are definitely in our face... even though other people put them there.  ESPN's Heat Index?  Every article about what Lebron thinks about x, y, and z not relating to Lebron.
In every sport there is a team I enjoy rooting against.  For the NBA it just happens to be the Heat.  Helps that they are also a Bulls rival and I'm a Bulls fan.

Well it's hard to blame them for something that isn't their fault.

But I understand the rivalry thing. 

[GGGG]

Sorry you are just wrong. He is not as good as anyone who has ever played the game. He is not as good as MJ (not even close), not as good as guys like Kareem and Wilt who were so good that the rules had to be changed to make the game fair for everyone else, not as good as Russell.

He has put himself in the conversation with the next level - Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan. And it is very possible he will be in the top 5 of all time before he is done (3 or 4 more years of continued excellence).

Lebron James is way better than Larry Bird.  My guess is that 90% of NBA GMs would take James over peak Larry Bird.  I'm sorry but I watched both of them play their entire career, and while Bird is definitely top 10-15, he is not James. 

And let's not forget that with all the talk about who James has around him, Bird played with three other Hall of Fame players at their peak. (Parrish, Johnson and McHale.)

But he's not Michael Jordan.

[GGGG]

He also played with Mo Williams (An All-star), Big Z (also an All-star) and Shaq (ok he was old at this point).

Mo Williams and Big Z were all stars like BJ Armstrong was an all star.  (IOW, if they aint playing with one of the best five players of all time, they aint all stars.)

[GGGG]

Agreed.  Never said he wasn't an insanely talented player.  He's the best in the world right now.  I just personally do not like how he plays and how he carries himself.  I never liked Jordan either.  But LeBron is not Jordan.

How does James carry himself?  Jeez if anything he is more likable than most of the guys we are talking about .

[Sunbelt15]

How does James carry himself?  Jeez if anything he is more likable than most of the guys we are talking about .

Agree. The way wadesworld talks, I thought he was a old geezer.

[forgetful]

Mo Williams and Big Z were all stars like BJ Armstrong was an all star.  (IOW, if they aint playing with one of the best five players of all time, they aint all stars.)

Big Z was an all-star before playing with Lebron…after Lebron he was never an all-star again.  Mo, was an all-star with Lebron, but he was averaging 17 its, 6 assists a game before ever playing with him, and continued to do that (or better) after.  His overall averages actually were worse playing alongside Lebron (more points 17.8 vs. 17.2, but assists dropped from 6.3 to 4.1).

For the record also, BJ Armstrong was an all-star in 1994, the year Jordan was not with the team.

[brandx]

Lebron James is way better than Larry Bird.  My guess is that 90% of NBA GMs would take James over peak Larry Bird.  I'm sorry but I watched both of them play their entire career, and while Bird is definitely top 10-15, he is not James. 

And let's not forget that with all the talk about who James has around him, Bird played with three other Hall of Fame players at their peak. (Parrish, Johnson and McHale.)

But he's not Michael Jordan.

As a rookie Bird led the Celtics from 29-53 to 61-21. That is a 32 game improvement.

And no, there was no McHale, no Parrish, no Denis Johnson. Just a brutally old, awful roster.

[GGGG]

As a rookie Bird led the Celtics from 29-53 to 61-21. That is a 32 game improvement.

And no, there was no McHale, no Parrish, no Denis Johnson. Just a brutally old, awful roster.

That "brutally old, awful roster" included two other Hall of Famers (Archibald and Cowens - both 31 years old), Cedric Maxwell (2nd year), and they also acquired ML Carr that year.

Undoubtedly the main reason was Bird.  Bird was a great player.  But let's not act like he had nothing around him.

EDIT:  And I will admit that Cowens was worn down and not near the player he was earlier, but Archibald was free of injury that year for the first time in awhile.  And this year marked the first of three straight All Star Games.

[jesmu84]

38 year old Tim Duncan didn't have a problem last night. Jordan played with the flu/was hungover. Willis Reed played with a torn muscle in his leg. Lebron can't play without A/C.

[🏀]

Marquette fans and those fans of Dominic James should know better than the question a player who can't play through a cramp.

[jesmu84]

Marquette fans and those fans of Dominic James should know better than the question a player who can't play through a cramp.

True. But it's fun to pile on.

[GGGG]

38 year old Tim Duncan didn't have a problem last night. Jordan played with the flu/was hungover. Willis Reed played with a torn muscle in his leg. Lebron can't play without A/C.

I know you are kidding, but these are the types of comments that many sports fans are just dopes.

So this is going to be the line.  Lebron James is too much of a p*ssy to play through a cramp.  He could have come back into a four point game in the NBA Finals, but he's not man enough to do so.

[MUfan12]

The LeBron talk is nauseating. That was a really good basketball game that is being overshadowed by a slew of hot sports takes.

I think the difference between the Spurs and Heat down the stretch was on the defensive end. Miami runs more iso stuff, and San Antonio screens and moves the ball more. And with James out, SA didn't have to expend as much energy on defense. You could see in the last 3 minutes that Miami was gassed. A lot of jumpers that came up short.

[GGGG]

The LeBron talk is nauseating. That was a really good basketball game that is being overshadowed by a slew of hot sports takes.

I think the difference between the Spurs and Heat down the stretch was on the defensive end. Miami runs more iso stuff, and San Antonio screens and moves the ball more. And with James out, SA didn't have to expend as much energy on defense. You could see in the last 3 minutes that Miami was gassed. A lot of jumpers that came up short.

San Antonio's bench is much better than Miami's.  Miami went out in the 3rd quarter, but Popovich was sitting a lot of stars for the fourth. 

Miami got nothing out of Chalmers...nothing out of Cole...nothing out of Battier.