Guardian Article: US Gun Culture Out of Balance

[keefe]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/07/hillary-clinton-says-us-must-rein-in-gun-culture

[brandx]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/07/hillary-clinton-says-us-must-rein-in-gun-culture

Pretty much agree with all she had to say. I also have no problem with gun ownership. but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.

Let's compare her views to the Rand Paul-supported candidate for the US Senate in M. Carolina who believes the 2nd amendment gives everyone the right to own nuclear weapons - you know nuclear weapons don't kill people - people kill people.

And it is the people who demand these rights the hardest that are the most dangerous - just look at what went on at the Bundy ranch as militia members were drawing on each other and one group wanted to execute all member of another group because they weren't radical enough.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/07/hillary-clinton-says-us-must-rein-in-gun-culture

Benjamin Franklin, looking good after 200+ years in the grave.

[keefe]

I also have no problem with gun ownership. but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.

We agree on this. ARs and AKs are brutally ineffective sport hunting weapons.

There is a significant difference in performance and reliability between the AR and the AK but neither is designed for sport hunting. The primary difference between these two weapons is in ammunition - the AR uses the 5.56×45mm NATO round while the AK 47 uses a 7.62×39mm bullet.

The original assault weapon was the German StG 44 which was introduced during WWII. German armaments designers took feedback from the field which indicated the bolt action was too slow to operate and most targets were within 200 meters. The combat introduction of the StG 44 stunned the Red Army with the sheer volume of ammunition the weapon could throw out in a reduced amount of time. Soviet observations of tactical combat engagements matched the Wehrmacht's and the Soviets introduced a series of assault weapons that resulted in the AK 47 - which bears a striking resemblance to the StG 44.

The US was late to assault weapons and only adopted the M 16 as its standard service weapon in 1969-70. The principal argument between the two assault weapons is the AK is said to be far less accurate but its rounds are more lethal while the M 16 has greater range, is more accurate, but is far less lethal.

The reality is that the AK's 7.62×39mm round has greater penetrating strength and makes a bigger hole while the M 16's smaller round penetrates less effectively but causes far greater damage due to post-impact ballistic behaviors - the Soviet round remains intact while the NATO round tends to disintegrate, fragment, and tumble once it enters the target.

The primary method of incapacitation in combat is through catastrophic damage to the central nervous system and cardio-vascular system. The post-impact ballistics of the NATO round cause far greater damage to these known vulnerabilities so head shots are less important and even hits to the extremities can result in a combat kill.

The net effect of developing assault weapons is that it reduced range and accuracy in exchange for increased fire power - attributes that detract from their value as sporting rifles. Also, the massive trauma inflicted by an AR round tends to upset the PETA people even more.

[Benny B]

The net effect of developing assault weapons is that it reduced range and accuracy in exchange for increased fire power - attributes that detract from their value as sporting rifles. Also, the massive trauma inflicted by an AR round tends to upset the PETA people even more.

I would gladly advocate for a law requiring the banning & destruction of all assault rifles in the U.S. provided we do the same to the PETA folks.

[brandx]

I would gladly advocate for a law requiring the banning & destruction of all assault rifles in the U.S. provided we do the same to the PETA folks.

As an animal lover, you have my blessing in going after PETA.

[keefe]

As an animal lover, you have my blessing in going after PETA.

Their attack on the Green Bay Packers is just one example of their idiocy:

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals said Monday in a letter to Harlan that the name promotes violence and bloodshed because it refers to meatpackers, or those who work in slaughterhouses.

The letter from PETA vegetarian campaign coordinator Bruce Friedrich suggests making the team the Green Bay "Pickers," referring to picking fruits, vegetables and other crops, or possibly the Green Bay "Six-Packers," referring to the state's brewing history.

"We've been the Packers since 1919, and this is the first time anyone has suggested that we change our name," Harlan said in reply. "We like our name, our tradition.

[Coleman]

As an animal lover, you have my blessing in going after PETA.

+1

[Coleman]

Benjamin Franklin, looking good after 200+ years in the grave.

I am a big fan of Hilary, but I just about busted my gut laughing.

[brandx]

I am a big fan of Hilary, but I just about busted my gut laughing.

Same here. That was a good line.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

If there had been guns in the Whitehouse when they left ,  would they have taken those too?

[keefe]

I am a big fan of Hilary, but I just about busted my gut laughing.

Yet another reason why Scoop is the best. Wry wit and acerbic commentary to start the day.

[keefe]

If there had been guns in the Whitehouse when they left ,  would they have taken those too?

raker

I commented on one of your other posts but not sure if you saw it. Some friends did the Lower Deschutes last weekend and said it is epic. Water level this year is perfect. They were nailing redsides on stonefly nymphs with mayfly droppers.

[Boone]

The quote from the Peta spokesman could be re-printed word for word in the Onion.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Benjamin Franklin, looking good after 200+ years in the grave.

I was thinking Star Wars next movie, Jabba the Hut comes back alive.   

[WellsstreetWanderer]

raker

I commented on one of your other posts but not sure if you saw it. Some friends did the Lower Deschutes last weekend and said it is epic. Water level this year is perfect. They were nailing redsides on stonefly nymphs with mayfly droppers.

Keefe

Sorry I missed this. Hit the stonefly and giant stone hatch last year. they were everywhere and when they landed on my hat it felt like someone popped me one. Epic place to be.  Can't wait and I hope I take time to shoot a picture

[keefe]

Keefe

Sorry I missed this. Hit the stonefly and giant stone hatch last year. they were everywhere and when they landed on my hat it felt like someone popped me one. Epic place to be.  Can't wait and I hope I take time to shoot a picture

The Deschutes is simply one of the most beautiful rivers anywhere. Throw in the redsides and steelies and you have evidence that God does in fact exist. My wife did not fly fish but she loved hiking the Deschutes trails. I love that river.

[Hards Alumni]

Great thread, front to back.

[mu03eng]

but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.

I'm not refuting your point, and maybe I'm being nitpicky but too many people who are anti-gun misuse/don't understand the bolded term.  Semi-automatic only refers to guns that do not require the shooter to cock the gun before firing another shot.  95% of hand guns are semi-automatic.  Hunting rifles(appropriate for the sport anyway) tend to not be semi-auto.  So by definition you would want hand guns banned/restricted which are much more likely to be used for personal protection.  I'm assuming you don't have issues with pistols/hand guns but perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm not a gun nut, don't own one, though I'm qual'd in rifle and hand gun so I know my way around them.  I just think using terms inappropriately weaken your argument and generally I think the "gun people" think the "anti-gun people" don't know what they are talking about and so ignore them.

[Hards Alumni]

I'm not refuting your point, and maybe I'm being nitpicky but too many people who are anti-gun misuse/don't understand the bolded term.  Semi-automatic only refers to guns that do not require the shooter to cock the gun before firing another shot.  95% of hand guns are semi-automatic.  Hunting rifles(appropriate for the sport anyway) tend to not be semi-auto.  So by definition you would want hand guns banned/restricted which are much more likely to be used for personal protection.  I'm assuming you don't have issues with pistols/hand guns but perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm not a gun nut, don't own one, though I'm qual'd in rifle and hand gun so I know my way around them.  I just think using terms inappropriately weaken your argument and generally I think the "gun people" think the "anti-gun people" don't know what they are talking about and so ignore them.

I'm hoping/guessing that he meant fully automatic, and not semi automatic.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I was thinking Star Wars next movie, Jabba the Hut comes back alive.   

BRUTALLY unfunny. Takes cringeworthy to the next level.

[brandx]

I'm hoping/guessing that he meant fully automatic, and not semi automatic.

I did.

Also, interesting stuff about smart guns as well. NRA won't allow them to be sold at gun stores (not officially, but a gun store owner who said he was going to sell them as a matter of freedom, then backed down after dozens of death threats and threats to blow up his store from NRA members). That is the essence of my problem with gun nuts. As I said, I support gun ownership, but the more stringent people are about gun rights, the higher the chances are they shouldn't have guns, i.e. the near massacre between militias at the Bundy ranch.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I did.

Also, interesting stuff about smart guns as well. NRA won't allow them to be sold at gun stores (not officially, but a gun store owner who said he was going to sell them as a matter of freedom, then backed down after dozens of death threats and threats to blow up his store from NRA members). That is the essence of my problem with gun nuts. As I said, I support gun ownership, but the more stringent people are about gun rights, the higher the chances are they shouldn't have guns, i.e. the near massacre between militias at the Bundy ranch.

Smith & Wesson did the same ten years ago on gun safety locks (terminologgy?) when they volunteeringly agreed to do it thinking there'd be no issue, but later when the NRA nuts went ballistic and blackballed their product they recanted.

[ATWizJr]

Pretty much agree with all she had to say. I also have no problem with gun ownership. but just as we regulate vehicles, we should have limits on let's say, assault rifles, semi-automatics, etc. Basically, guns whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible in the shortest time.

Let's compare her views to the Rand Paul-supported candidate for the US Senate in M. Carolina who believes the 2nd amendment gives everyone the right to own nuclear weapons - you know nuclear weapons don't kill people - people kill people.

And it is the people who demand these rights the hardest that are the most dangerous - just look at what went on at the Bundy ranch as militia members were drawing on each other and one group wanted to execute all member of another group because they weren't radical enough.

  Whoa!  Nuclear weapons are now available for sale to the general public?  Link?

[keefe]

Also, interesting stuff about smart guns as well. NRA won't allow them to be sold at gun stores (not officially, but a gun store owner who said he was going to sell them as a matter of freedom, then backed down after dozens of death threats and threats to blow up his store from NRA members). That is the essence of my problem with gun nuts. As I said, I support gun ownership, but the more stringent people are about gun rights, the higher the chances are they shouldn't have guns, i.e. the near massacre between militias at the Bundy ranch.

Interesting observations on the Second Amendment and gun control from noted liberals:

“Those who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right are courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like. ” - Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School


“Strict gun laws are about as effective as strict drug laws...It pains me to say this, but the NRA seems to be right: The cities and states that have the toughest gun laws have the most murder and mayhem.” - Mike Royko, Chicago Tribune


“Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.” - Mahatma Gandhi