Another shooting on campus

[ChicosBailBonds]

Knowing that a state is 60% mormon and a guy saying "typical millennial" aren't exactly the same thing.  I think you know that and are just trying to poke holes in what I was saying. 

Not really, they're both generalizations.


Maybe we can pass a law that only mormons can conceal and carry.   

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Someone should put this thread out of its misery.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ok, fair enough about the good guy/bad guy thing.  Curious though since you're so gunho about defending your home.  http://gawker.com/horrifying-audio-of-man-killing-unarmed-teens-released-1570904656

Good guy or bad guy?  Two unarmed teens sneak in, fair reason to defend yourself you don't know if they're armed and they're trespassing.  He execution kills the girl after it's fairly clear that they posed no threat and could very well have called the cops.  Legal gun, legally defending himself, absolutely evil and malicious killing.  Please defend.  Also you never answered my question about why the NRA doesn't support better psych screening please defend that as well. 

Like I said, it can't be perfect, impossible.  I concede any example you come up with. Just as you I would expect you to acknowledge these types of events:

http://yellowhammernews.com/buzzworthy/alabama-man-gun-stops-machete-wielding-home-intruder/

http://cumberlink.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/home-intruder-found-woman-with-pistol-police-say/article_d61116de-b6d7-11e3-817f-0019bb2963f4.html

http://www.yorkdispatch.com/breaking/ci_25440871/police-gun-wielding-glenville-woman-stops-intruder-his

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/03/14/Woman-Stops-Burglar-Holds-At-Gun-Point-23-Minutes-Until-Police-Arrive


I didn't know the NRA question was pushed to me.  I don't know what the NRA supports or doesn't support, I don't support the NRA, but I'm glad someone is out there to be a boogeyman for others.   If I had to guess, I suspect that they are worried about a slippery slope of who is considered ok and who isn't.  If you had a prescription for valium 5 years ago, does that mean you are unhinged and can't own a weapon?  Who gets to decide?  If you bought St. John's Wart at Walgreen's, are you eligible?  If you are perfectly sane but your wife went through post partem depression, is that justification to keep a gun out of a home?  So on and so forth.  That's merely a guess.

[HansMoleman]

Ok, fair enough about the good guy/bad guy thing.  Curious though since you're so gunho about defending your home.  http://gawker.com/horrifying-audio-of-man-killing-unarmed-teens-released-1570904656

Good guy or bad guy?  Two unarmed teens sneak in, fair reason to defend yourself you don't know if they're armed and they're trespassing.  He execution kills the girl after it's fairly clear that they posed no threat and could very well have called the cops.  Legal gun, legally defending himself, absolutely evil and malicious killing.  Please defend.  Also you never answered my question about why the NRA doesn't support better psych screening please defend that as well. 

Uhh...bad guy.  There's no way anyone can defend the actions of this sick individual.  This goes way beyond defending oneself.

[brandx]

I believe it was actually, no sh1t, Hilary Clinton who invented the term "assault weapon."

I rarely find you to be in error, so I couldn't help myself

Popularization of the term "assault weapon" is attributed by many to the 1988 book "Assault Weapons and Accessories in America" by gun-control activist Josh Sugarmann.

The term was also used by a California pol back in the '80s when introducing a gun control bill.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Someone should put this thread out of its misery.

Why, it's pretty good conversation, no one is being belligerent, adults still talking.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Why, it's pretty good conversation, no one is being belligerent, adults still talking.

It was a joke ...

[Galway Eagle]

Not really, they're both generalizations.


Maybe we can pass a law that only mormons can conceal and carry.   

Ok remember why I said Utah is bad example? Because it's mostly mormons, what can mormons not do that most people can? Drink.  I was directly saying that Utah is a bad example because there will be tremendously less beligerant people on the streets than other states.  Not a generalization due to the tough alcohol laws and religious presence.  I had facts backing up what I said that would imply a correlation.  What Benny B said was flat out making a generalization without anything to substantiate his claim.  Would you prefer I looked up the religious demographics of the 7 universities in UTAH to further support my claim? would that make it not a generalization?  

[keefe]

I rarely find you to be in error, so I couldn't help myself

Popularization of the term "assault weapon" is attributed by many to the 1988 book "Assault Weapons and Accessories in America" by gun-control activist Josh Sugarmann.

The term was also used by a California pol back in the '80s when introducing a gun control bill.

Touche. In the conventional wisdom of the TACP world, coining of the term is credited to the then First Lady. As with most things spawned by men institutionally deprived of alcohol and female companionship while enduring long stretches in primitive conditions the imagination gets the better of reality. If I had a nickel for every "There I Was" tale of adventure, conquest, or invention I have sat through there would be a shortage of five cent coins in circulation.    

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ok remember why I said Utah is bad example? Because it's mostly mormons, what can mormons not do that most people can? Drink.  I was directly saying that Utah is a bad example because there will be tremendously less beligerant people on the streets than other states.  Not a generalization due to the tough alcohol laws and religious presence.  I had facts backing up what I said that would imply a correlation.  What Benny B said was flat out making a generalization without anything to substantiate his claim.  Would you prefer I looked up the religious demographics of the 7 universities in UTAH to further support my claim? would that make it not a generalization?  

First, you would be surprised how many Mormons drink.  The 2.8% beer, home made wine, and just regular over the counter stuff.

Have you never heard the joke, "why do you take two mormons with you fishing?  Because if you take one he'll drink all the beer"

Nevertheless, I understand your point as certainly the amount of alcohol consumption is less, far less.  Aren't you discounting the 40% of the population that isn't Mormon? Or in the case of the universities, anywhere from 40% to 65% depending on the school?  What of the other states that now allow conceal carry on campus property, that aren't the state of Utah?

[Galway Eagle]

Like I said, it can't be perfect, impossible.  I concede any example you come up with. Just as you I would expect you to acknowledge these types of events:

http://yellowhammernews.com/buzzworthy/alabama-man-gun-stops-machete-wielding-home-intruder/

http://cumberlink.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/home-intruder-found-woman-with-pistol-police-say/article_d61116de-b6d7-11e3-817f-0019bb2963f4.html

http://www.yorkdispatch.com/breaking/ci_25440871/police-gun-wielding-glenville-woman-stops-intruder-his

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/03/14/Woman-Stops-Burglar-Holds-At-Gun-Point-23-Minutes-Until-Police-Arrive


I didn't know the NRA question was pushed to me.  I don't know what the NRA supports or doesn't support, I don't support the NRA, but I'm glad someone is out there to be a boogeyman for others.   If I had to guess, I suspect that they are worried about a slippery slope of who is considered ok and who isn't.  If you had a prescription for valium 5 years ago, does that mean you are unhinged and can't own a weapon?  Who gets to decide?  If you bought St. John's Wart at Walgreen's, are you eligible?  If you are perfectly sane but your wife went through post partem depression, is that justification to keep a gun out of a home?  So on and so forth.  That's merely a guess.

I guess then that I was stereotyping you as an NRA supporter for which I apologize.  I concede what you're saying for some of those examples. Though a disoriented guy might've left once coming to I know I found myself in a fair share of random peoples rooms after a night out when I lived in Schroeder and I came to and left no guns needed.  

I know it's not possible to legislate morality but what it boils down to is which side do you trust.  Do you trust that the majority of people in this country are sane and won't shoot you if you slightly offend them. Or do you trust that with less access to guns or at least assault guns, that lethal crimes can be reduced.  I clearly trust the later you the former.  

I maintain that you're wrong about the neon sign to come in and start shooting comment and maintain that whatever it is that works in your I'm assuming either suburb or upscale area of a city.  Won't work in certain other areas thus instead of legislating it, it should be taken down to a local vote.  

Don't understand the assault rifles thing at all.  I get entertainment for people but between the hundreds of game systems, sports, cars, off road vehicles, professional sports to watch, board games, TV shows, movies, hunting, etc that we'd be entertained enough without needing unbelievable powerful guns to add to that.  

[Galway Eagle]

First, you would be surprised how many Mormons drink.  The 2.8% beer, home made wine, and just regular over the counter stuff.

Have you never heard the joke, "why do you take two mormons with you fishing?  Because if you take one he'll drink all the beer"

Nevertheless, I understand your point as certainly the amount of alcohol consumption is less, far less.  Aren't you discounting the 40% of the population that isn't Mormon? Or in the case of the universities, anywhere from 40% to 65% depending on the school?  What of the other states that now allow conceal carry on campus property, that aren't the state of Utah?

No sorry must be a west coast joke.  I am discounting a great deal of the school but factor in social drinkers, people who just don't drink because, and those waiting till their 21.  You get a fairly small portion of those schools. 

I only chose to address Utah because it was the first on your list and my first reaction was "really? You're going to point to Utah?". Perhaps I read it wrong but it seemed like the other laws hadn't been instituted yet or had exemptions for on campus facilities? Keep in mind I'm also studying for finals so it is very possible I misread that statement. 

[tower912]

I understand the arguments for both sides.   From my perspective, I have taken care of the victims too many times, seen too many holes in people, to be a fan.   

[Benny B]

Ok remember why I said Utah is bad example? Because it's mostly mormons, what can mormons not do that most people can? Drink.  I was directly saying that Utah is a bad example because there will be tremendously less beligerant people on the streets than other states.  Not a generalization due to the tough alcohol laws and religious presence.  I had facts backing up what I said that would imply a correlation.  What Benny B said was flat out making a generalization without anything to substantiate his claim.  Would you prefer I looked up the religious demographics of the 7 universities in UTAH to further support my claim? would that make it not a generalization?  

Nothing to substantiate my claim?  Well now that you've asked, please allow this entitled know-it-all to back it up:

http://www.multivu.com/mnr/63068-ernst-and-young-llp-research-younger-managers-rise-in-the-ranks

Some snippets:

Members of Gen X lead the pack when it comes to positive perceptions of both the characteristics and management skills of each generation. Members of Gen X were cited as “best” among the generations in seven out of 11 attributes, including being a “revenue generator” (58%) as well as possessing traits of “adaptability” (49%), “problem-solving” (57%) and “collaboration” (53%). However, members of Gen X lag behind boomers in being perceived as “best” at displaying executive presence (28% vs. 66%) and being cost effective (34% vs. 59%).

Members of Gen Y scored high marks for being “enthusiastic” (68% agree) but had lower scores for being perceived as a “team player” (45%), “hardworking” (39%) and “a productive part of my organization” (58%). They also scored highest in three out of four negative traits, such as being perceived as “entitled” (68%).

And here's my generalization of the Boomers in chart form.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I understand the arguments for both sides.   From my perspective, I have taken care of the victims too many times, seen too many holes in people, to be a fan.   

Have you ever taken care of someone that wasn't shot because they had a gun and were able to defend themselves?      In other words, absence of an injury like the many articles I posted earlier today.  Intruder stopped, no one got hurt, bad guy in jail, no "holes in people".

[Galway Eagle]

Nothing to substantiate my claim?  Well now that you've asked, please allow this entitled know-it-all to back it up:

http://www.multivu.com/mnr/63068-ernst-and-young-llp-research-younger-managers-rise-in-the-ranks

Some snippets:


And here's my generalization of the Boomers in chart form.

So what this is saying that a group of young people just entering the work force aren't as good at managing as Gen X which has been in the workforce for awhile? Seriously man come on.  If the majority of your generation was either in college/gradschool or just coming out the survey respondents would say you're not ready to be management as well. 

Also nowhere in that article did it say that Gen Y is looking for other people to stop them from screwing up.  So once again you made an unsubstantiated claim that was baseless own up to it. 

[tower912]

Have you ever taken care of someone that wasn't shot because they had a gun and were able to defend themselves?     In other words, absence of an injury like the many articles I posted earlier today.  Intruder stopped, no one got hurt, bad guy in jail, no "holes in people".

I have taken care of someone who was in a position to return fire, returned fire, but got hit anyway.  I've also taken care of one of the victims when there were two shooters involved and both got hit.  I have taken care of victim's shot by people with licenses who were either drunk or had a temper tantrum.  Most, however, were shot by an unlicensed handgun. I've taken care of dummies who accidentally shot themselves in the leg, both with licensed and unlicensed guns. I've been on scene when people have committed suicide with a licensed handgun.  One time, I got to be first on the scene when a boyfriend shot his estranged girlfriend, her sister, and then himself after couples counseling didn't work.  Licensed handgun.  In 24 years, I have cleaned up after between 30 and 40 shootings. I look at guns like tobacco and casinos.   Others can do what they like; I know they are not for me.

[Benny B]

So what this is saying that a group of young people just entering the work force aren't as good at managing as Gen X which has been in the workforce for awhile? Seriously man come on.  If the majority of your generation was either in college/gradschool or just coming out the survey respondents would say you're not ready to be management as well. 

Also nowhere in that article did it say that Gen Y is looking for other people to stop them from screwing up.  So once again you made an unsubstantiated claim that was baseless own up to it. 

You yourself implied that if it wasn't for a law/rule that kept you from carrying a concealed weapon into a bar, you don't know if you might do something that would change your life forever.  In essence, you've stated that you don't carry concealed weapons into bars because "someone" told you not to do it; in this case, someone happens to be the government.  In contrast, I don't need someone to tell me not to carry a concealed weapon because I already know it's a bad idea.  

That's the difference between our generations... Gen X's parents were mostly "hands off" meaning that we were left to learn common sense for ourselves through trial and error (mostly coming in the forms of cuts, scrapes, bumps and bruises playing with toys that have long since been banned).  Your generation has been told what to do, how to do it, and when to do it so much that you've never had to ask "why;" so it's no surprise that common sense is oft overlooked amongst your peers.  Sure, these are generalizations and there are always exceptions to the rule; but the overall findings in just about every study on the Millenials over the past decade+ have been in line with the anecdotal stuff like the Millenials' taking their parents to job interviews, arguing grades with professors because the answer to the essay question wasn't on the study guide, videotaping their own acts of breaking the law, etc.  The development of critical thinking skills - relative to earlier generations - is a bit behind, but it's not like Millenials are morons.

One thing in the study where Millenials excelled is enthusiasm, and that's actually quite beneficial to employers and leaders.  Again, maybe that's because Millenials' predisposition for enthusiasm has more to do with age/stage-of-life than it is generational.  But sometimes, you can be too enthusiastic about something that you fail to see the causes and consequence of taking (or not taking) action.  In this case, I have no doubt that you are fully aware that carrying a weapon - gun, knife, taser, laser-kitten, etc. - on your person into a bar is a bad idea.  But the enthusiasm you have for your stance on gun control blinded that knowledge and instead, it caused you to falsely attribute your ability to make a good decision to someone having told you it was a good decision.

Now that we got that out of the way, let's be friends --- because we need to channel Millenials' enthusiasm along with Gen X's problem solving skills and figure out how we can abolish social security without grandma and grandpa (or mom and dad) finding out.

[Galway Eagle]

You yourself implied that if it wasn't for a law/rule that kept you from carrying a concealed weapon into a bar, you don't know if you might do something that would change your life forever.  In essence, you've stated that you don't carry concealed weapons into bars because "someone" told you not to do it; in this case, someone happens to be the government.  In contrast, I don't need someone to tell me not to carry a concealed weapon because I already know it's a bad idea.  

That's the difference between our generations... Gen X's parents were mostly "hands off" meaning that we were left to learn common sense for ourselves through trial and error (mostly coming in the forms of cuts, scrapes, bumps and bruises playing with toys that have long since been banned).  Your generation has been told what to do, how to do it, and when to do it so much that you've never had to ask "why;" so it's no surprise that common sense is oft overlooked amongst your peers.  Sure, these are generalizations and there are always exceptions to the rule; but the overall findings in just about every study on the Millenials over the past decade+ have been in line with the anecdotal stuff like the Millenials' taking their parents to job interviews, arguing grades with professors because the answer to the essay question wasn't on the study guide, videotaping their own acts of breaking the law, etc.  The development of critical thinking skills - relative to earlier generations - is a bit behind, but it's not like Millenials are morons.

One thing in the study where Millenials excelled is enthusiasm, and that's actually quite beneficial to employers and leaders.  Again, maybe that's because Millenials' predisposition for enthusiasm has more to do with age/stage-of-life than it is generational.  But sometimes, you can be too enthusiastic about something that you fail to see the causes and consequence of taking (or not taking) action.  In this case, I have no doubt that you are fully aware that carrying a weapon - gun, knife, taser, laser-kitten, etc. - on your person into a bar is a bad idea.  But the enthusiasm you have for your stance on gun control blinded that knowledge and instead, it caused you to falsely attribute your ability to make a good decision to someone having told you it was a good decision.

Now that we got that out of the way, let's be friends --- because we need to channel Millenials' enthusiasm along with Gen X's problem solving skills and figure out how we can abolish social security without grandma and grandpa (or mom and dad) finding out.

I'm a boxer do you really think you've learned more from getting cuts and bruises than I have?  

I really think you misinterpreted what I said.  I'm never gonna have a gun this has nothing to do with someone having to tell me whether I can or can't have it.  I was using my example for everyone to see how drunk people don't think consequentially. And if you're going to tell me that when you were 23 you were mr rationale even at 2am after closing down whatever bar you frequented here then props to you but the point of my example is that drunkenly getting attacked you're gonna think fight back.  And it's not about what'll happen to the other person it's immediately fight back.  

For the way you're taking it I'm not saying "someone" told me not to have a gun.  I'm saying that because I thought through that exact situation in previous times I know guns aren't right for me because of my fight back attitude.  As it was the university still charged me with battery despite being attacked so with a gun... hence the life would've changed stance. 

[Coleman]

Have you ever taken care of someone that wasn't shot because they had a gun and were able to defend themselves?      In other words, absence of an injury like the many articles I posted earlier today.  Intruder stopped, no one got hurt, bad guy in jail, no "holes in people".

By the same token, how many people has he not had to take care of  because the potential perpetrator did not have access to a gun because there were checks in place to prevent him from getting it?

As you like to say, goes both ways. There's no way to know the answer to either of our questions.

[Benny B]

I'm a boxer do you really think you've learned more from getting cuts and bruises than I have? 

Incidentally, I busted my Nintendo kicking it while playing Mike Tyson's Punch Out; several weeks without video games taught me that I needed to get better at video games.  Does that count?

[keefe]

Only in America. Regardless of position you must appreciate the passion.

[Galway Eagle]

Incidentally, I busted my Nintendo kicking it while playing Mike Tyson's Punch Out; several weeks without video games taught me that I needed to get better at video games.  Does that count?

Depends did you have someone show you how to kick your Nintendo or tell you not to and you did it anyways or did you learn from your bruised toe not to do it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

By the same token, how many people has he not had to take care of  because the potential perpetrator did not have access to a gun because there were checks in place to prevent him from getting it?

As you like to say, goes both ways. There's no way to know the answer to either of our questions.

Yup, that is exactly correct.

I can see a scenario where Tower is fireman in Aurora, CO and is called to the scene of a mass shooting in a theater.  After it is clear to go in, the carnage is massive.  12 people dead, 20 others injured.  Many holes in bodies as it were.  A sight no one should have to see and certainly wouldn't make him or anyone else a fan.


Now let's assume same scenario, called to the scene, but this time there are 2 people dead, 3 injured because someone in the theater was carrying a concealed and took this a-hole down when the shooting started.  My guess is that the view will still be one of horror, still too many holes in bodies, but how many lives were saved as a result?  How many fewer holes happened?  For me, though not a big fan of what happened to the victims (obviously), I'm a huge fan of the guy that saved his fellow man and didn't let a terrible incident become a massacre.  If we're really lucky, the perp is also dead rather than getting 3 squares and a cot the rest of his life. 

[Galway Eagle]

Yup, that is exactly correct.

I can see a scenario where Tower is fireman in Aurora, CO and is called to the scene of a mass shooting in a theater.  After it is clear to go in, the carnage is massive.  12 people dead, 20 others injured.  Many holes in bodies as it were.  A sight no one should have to see and certainly wouldn't make him or anyone else a fan.


Now let's assume same scenario, called to the scene, but this time there are 2 people dead, 3 injured because someone in the theater was carrying a concealed and took this a-hole down when the shooting started.  My guess is that the view will still be one of horror, still too many holes in bodies, but how many lives were saved as a result?  How many fewer holes happened?  For me, though not a big fan of what happened to the victims (obviously), I'm a huge fan of the guy that saved his fellow man and didn't let a terrible incident become a massacre.  If we're really lucky, the perp is also dead rather than getting 3 squares and a cot the rest of his life. 

Let's also assume that a guy expecting there to be a mass shooter brings a gun to a movie theater.  This guy feels a bit riteous and tough now that he's carrying a gun.  So he yells at a father texting his daughter about using his phone.  The father is upset because nobody has that right and turns around and says who do you think you are? Now that guy with his gun feels it's within his right to shoot that father who was just checking on his daughter leaving his wife a widow and his daughter without a father feeling guilty forever because her being scared is what made the dad text.  Oh wait we don't have to imagine that it already happened.

There's a third scenario we can imagine though.  Aurora Colorado, a gunman wants to shoot up a movie theater and can only buy single shot guns.  He goes in there's a panic but because he has to reload he's overtaken in an instant leaving one or two people dead but preventing the death in scenario two.