Poll: Derrick Wilson minutes

[NersEllenson]

The logic works like this:

There are too many variables to lay a poor season on 1 player, and specifically 1 stat, (3pt shooting). That's it.

Here it is in a math formula:
A+B+C+D = X.

We know B = 3

What does X equal?

X = A+3+C+D

That's it. That's all we know.

You have an opinion about Derrick, and I'm not debating you on that. I'm debating you because you are looking for validation from members of this board using faulty logic.

LOL.  One stat?  3 point shooting?  How about FT shooting?  How about a total and complete unwillingness to shoot a jump shot from the Field other than if in desperation mode, thereby only shooting at the basket, and resulting in no pressure nor defense being applied to him during his 80% of the time on the perimeter.

Also, basketball is a GAME - it isn't a logical equation per se.  But here's some logic you can wrap your head around - generally when outnumbered in a sport...you are at a disadvantage.  There is a reason teams like to play 5 on 5 in basketball, and 11 on 11 in football.  When your head coach says you are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end (which is a true statement), that affects players 2, 3, 4 and 5 quite negatively.

Would you answer the questions though Guns:  How many more wins this season would MU have had if its starting PG just shot a pedestrian 75% from the FT line, and made 28% of his 3 point attempts?  There is something to be said about carrying your weight as a teammate.  One guy fails to do an adequate job, and instead of being just adequate, the poor job is to the level of historic proportions - it hurts the whole team...and team in turn struggles to be successful/win.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm sure this won't work, but I'm going to try and say a statement that I think everyone will agree with.

"One of the central problems, perhaps the number 1 problem, of the 2013-2014 Marquette Men's Basketball team was that its coach, Buzz Williams, let the team get into a position where he thought that the best option for the team's success was to play Derrick Wilson at the point guard position for 32 mpg."

Can we agree on this common ground? Honestly just curious if anyone else feels differently.

Ners, the axis of slurpers have offered the above terms. Do you agree to this piece of common ground? Our tacticians believe it will shorten the war by 5 years and save thousands of lives.

[NersEllenson]

I'm sure this won't work, but I'm going to try and say a statement that I think everyone will agree with.

"One of the central problems, perhaps the number 1 problem, of the 2013-2014 Marquette Men's Basketball team was that its coach, Buzz Williams, let the team get into a position where he thought that the best option for the team's success was to play Derrick Wilson at the point guard position for 32 mpg."

Can we agree on this common ground? Honestly just curious if anyone else feels differently.

I can go along with the above edits.  It was Buzz's fault...no coach in his right mind would continue to bang his head against the same wall over and over and over again with a guy who quite consistently performed poorly.  The ridiculous Derrick bear hug during the home game against Xavier or Seton Hall when Derrick had a nice stretch of 3 minutes was all I needed to see that Buzz was dying more than anything to be proven right and vindicated that his blind loyalty to a guy was paying off when there was so much evidence and fan consternation to the contrary.

[willie warrior]

I can go along with the above edits.  It was Buzz's fault...no coach in his right mind would continue to bang his head against the same wall over and over and over again with a guy who quite consistently performed poorly.  The ridiculous Derrick bear hug during the home game against Xavier or Seton Hall when Derrick had a nice stretch of 3 minutes was all I needed to see that Buzz was dying more than anything to be proven right and vindicated that his blind loyalty to a guy was paying off when there was so much evidence and fan consternation to the contrary.

Exactly, but you will never get an agreement from the Buzz slurpers on Derrick. After all, Buzz said Derrick was an elite defender and a gamechanger. which is what the slurpers hung their hats on all year long. And according to them, Buzz was the coach who could do no wrong. How could anybody question the downhome lonesome cowboy? Anybody who did was immediately slandered on this board--deflection as they say.

But wait...apparently the administration must have been asking some of those questions, which is why the phony downhome lonesome cowboy skipped out.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But wait...apparently the administration must have been asking some of those questions, which is why the phony downhome lonesome cowboy skipped out.

I can personally guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that Buzz' departure had absolutely nothing to do with his on the court performance.

His off the court however...

[GGGG]

I will again point out, that if you take a good look at MUScoop during the tenure of Buzz, Ners was one of the bigger "slurpers" out there.

People who supported Buzz's decisions wrt Derrick Wilson have nothing on Ners slandering alleged sexual assault victims for his sake.

[Lennys Tap]

I will again point out, that if you take a good look at MUScoop during the tenure of Buzz, Ners was one of the bigger "slurpers" out there.

People who supported Buzz's decisions wrt Derrick Wilson have nothing on Ners slandering alleged sexual assault victims for his sake.

For his sake? I didn't know that Buzz was accused of sexual assault.

[NersEllenson]

I will again point out, that if you take a good look at MUScoop during the tenure of Buzz, Ners was one of the bigger "slurpers" out there.

People who supported Buzz's decisions wrt Derrick Wilson have nothing on Ners slandering alleged sexual assault victims for his sake.

I was one of Buzz's biggest fans...until this past season...early on, when it became clear something wasn't right with Buzz and subsequently how he was coaching the team.  I'd rarely been critical of Buzz at any point in his tenure prior to this season - other than thinking the DJ Newbill deal wasn't right - but at that time gave him the benefit of the doubt.  

As for "slandering" ALLEGED sexual assault victims - I simply won't crucify a head coach for the conduct of his players.  A coach cannot be with their players 24x7 and we are talking about 18-22 year old, high profile men on a campus like MU or any football player at a Big football school.  By and large most players under Buzz behaved well in their time at MU, and things like underage drinking, being at clubs, a student being accused of sexual assault - I'd venture a guess that all of those things happen at just as high of rate among the general student body as they do D-1 athletes - yet the men of the general student body, rarely have women throw themselves at them (though I'm sure they did you Sultan you big stud)...as do many girls at high profile athletes.

And as for the slandering - I just said what was true about the case - there was a previous consensual sexual relationship between the parties involved...and it began consensual..but then at some point it allegedly became non-consensual.  Obviously no charges were filed and as I recall the girl didn't take it to the police for some period of time after the episode...lots of gray areas as there always are in such cases...and I don't subscribe to guilty until proven innocent...unfortunate incident for all involved.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

1. There were 2 players accused. Not 1.
2. While a previous consensual relationship existed in one of the cases, nothing that happened the night of the assault was consensual. The 2nd case had no previous consensual relationship.
3. Buzz cannot be blamed for his players actions. But he sure as hell can be blamed for how he handled the fallout. His role was almost as despicable as the involved players.
4. I'm not sure what you are getting at, but it sounds like you are implying that because "a student being accused of sexual assault - I'd venture a guess that all of those things happen at just as high of rate among the general student body as they do D-1 athletes " and "have women throw themselves at them as do many girls at high profile athletes" it's not a big deal that two of our players were (justly) accused of raping women. I really hope that is not what you are trying to imply because that is disgusting.
5. Sexual assault is the most unreported crime in the world, by a large margin. It's because victims are intimidated to go through the process. And who can blame them? Many ran to protect our basketball players and demonized the victims.
6. The victim did go to the police right away. The Marquette police. They failed to properly report it the Milwaukee PD as they are required by law to do.
7. The accused were found guilty by the university judicial system and the victim decided that that was good enough.
8. While I too don't subscribe to "guilty until proven innocent" I also don't prescribe to "innocent because they were not prove guilty." They are absolutely innocent in the eyes of the law, but that doesn't mean they are innocent in the eyes of God.

[g0lden3agle]

Exactly, but you will never get an agreement from the Buzz slurpers on Derrick. After all, Buzz said Derrick was an elite defender and a gamechanger. which is what the slurpers hung their hats on all year long. And according to them, Buzz was the coach who could do no wrong. How could anybody question the downhome lonesome cowboy? Anybody who did was immediately slandered on this board--deflection as they say.

But wait...apparently the administration must have been asking some of those questions, which is why the phony downhome lonesome cowboy skipped out.

Willie, serious question - Do you actually read any of the posts of the alleged "slurpers"?  For instance, any of the ones in this very thread where the alleged "slurpers" admit that Derrick was part of the problem?

[ATL MU Warrior]

I can go along with the above edits.  It was Buzz's fault...no coach in his right mind would continue to bang his head against the same wall over and over and over again with a guy who quite consistently performed poorly.  The ridiculous Derrick bear hug during the home game against Xavier or Seton Hall when Derrick had a nice stretch of 3 minutes was all I needed to see that Buzz was dying more than anything to be proven right and vindicated that his blind loyalty to a guy was paying off when there was so much evidence and fan consternation to the contrary.

I thought Buzz, according to you, was playing his "high character guys" to prove a point to the admin?

Now you are saying he played DW out of blind loyalty.

Which is it?

[GGGG]

And as for the slandering - I just said what was true about the case - there was a previous consensual sexual relationship between the parties involved...and it began consensual..but then at some point it allegedly became non-consensual.  Obviously no charges were filed and as I recall the girl didn't take it to the police for some period of time after the episode...lots of gray areas as there always are in such cases...and I don't subscribe to guilty until proven innocent...unfortunate incident for all involved.

That is a flat-out, 100% lie.

You presented *as a fact* that it was a "woman scorned" scenario. 


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=28095.msg324414#msg324414

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...

End of story."


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27353.msg312151#msg312151

"Hell hath no fury, like a woman scorned.  And my 2 cents - this is exactly what happened here..."


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27584.msg316187#msg316187

"Take responsibility for the flawed policy (which was the same under your boy Crean), but reiterate the FACTS:

1) DPS didn't have reasonable cause to think an assault occurred.
2) DPS gave girl the option to take matter up with police if she felt their conclusion wasn't satisfactory.
3) Girl chose not to go to police for a long time.
4) Girl realizes player is never going to date her again, is bitter, and decides to wage war against player and university.
5) Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

[NersEllenson]

That is a flat-out, 100% lie.

You presented *as a fact* that it was a "woman scorned" scenario. 


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=28095.msg324414#msg324414

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...

End of story."


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27353.msg312151#msg312151

"Hell hath no fury, like a woman scorned.  And my 2 cents - this is exactly what happened here..."


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27584.msg316187#msg316187

"Take responsibility for the flawed policy (which was the same under your boy Crean), but reiterate the FACTS:

1) DPS didn't have reasonable cause to think an assault occurred.
2) DPS gave girl the option to take matter up with police if she felt their conclusion wasn't satisfactory.
3) Girl chose not to go to police for a long time.
4) Girl realizes player is never going to date her again, is bitter, and decides to wage war against player and university.
5) Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

Think I need to modify the statement to:  Hell hath no fury like a Sultan scorned.   Not sure why you'd want to revisit and rehash a potentially hurtful topic to the victim you advocate for...seems to lack sensitivity on your part?

The only people who truly know exactly what happened the night of the ALLEGED crime were the parties that were there.  I offered my take...you and others offered theirs...and there was disagreement...end of the day...No charges ended up being filed.  DPS apparently didn't witness evidence that would suggest sex assault.  Highly doubt they wouldn't have turned the matter over to MPD if they saw physical signs of rape - which I believe tend to be present in most cases?

Lastly, just because you spent all of last season being wrong on your take on Buzz/the team, doesn't mean you weren't right about some of your prior takes on him as a coach.  As I recall, you too felt the Newbill deal was dirty at the time...and perhaps you are right on how Buzz handled the alleged sexual assault charges against his players - perhaps unethically - yet in my view Buzz handled it from what we know - as would many coaches at high major programs....do what they could to protect their player/provide the best advice to the player.

Still can't believe you took it to the level of re-hashing the sex assault...for the guy who champions himself as a victim advocate you showed a complete lack of sensitivity to the alleged victim? 

[GGGG]

Think I need to modify the statement to:  Hell hath no fury like a Sultan scorned.   Not sure why you'd want to revisit and rehash a potentially hurtful topic to the victim you advocate for...seems to lack sensitivity on your part?

Still can't believe you took it to the level of re-hashing the sex assault...for the guy who champions himself as a victim advocate you showed a complete lack of sensitivity to the alleged victim? 

LOL.  Complete deflection.  Gotta love Ners.

Here is why I brought it up.  You have a complete inability to see any shades of gray in any situation. 

When you were on Buzz's side, you defended to the point of certainty that the alleged victim was simply "a woman scorned," and no matter how many times people pointed out the flaws in your argument, you were strident in your take.  At that point in time, you would pretty much do anything not to paint Buzz or his players in a poor light.

When you were not on Buzz's side, you continue to defend to the point of certainly that Derrick Wilson wasn't just *one* of the issues, he was *the* issue.  When people make a counter argument, ANY counter argument, you are strident in your belief.  At this point, everything Buzz did was wrong...his playing time, his substitutions, etc.

There is never any compromise...never any shades of gray...in Ners' world.  Only black and white.  Only right or wrong.

You were once King of the Slurpers.  And now you are King of the Rebellion.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Would you answer the questions though Guns:  How many more wins this season would MU have had if its starting PG just shot a pedestrian 75% from the FT line, and made 28% of his 3 point attempts?  There is something to be said about carrying your weight as a teammate.  One guy fails to do an adequate job, and instead of being just adequate, the poor job is to the level of historic proportions - it hurts the whole team...and team in turn struggles to be successful/win.

We AGREE!

Derrick was BAD.

Fine.

BUT, it still doesn't change the fact that you are identifying ONE VARIABLE, assigning it blame, and using faulty logic as to prove it.

MU could go undefeated with DW playing 40mpg this coming season. Guess what? It wouldn't magically mean he wasn't bad this past season. He was bad. Sunk cost. Done. Nothing he does this season will change that.

You keep setting up this "argument" about Derrick's minutes this coming season so you can somehow shove it in people's faces if/when MU plays well without Derrick. Quit doing that. It's bad logic. Does not compute.

Okay? We good?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The only people who truly know exactly what happened the night of the ALLEGED crime were the parties that were there.  I offered my take...you and others offered theirs...and there was disagreement...end of the day...No charges ended up being filed.  DPS apparently didn't witness evidence that would suggest sex assault.  Highly doubt they wouldn't have turned the matter over to MPD if they saw physical signs of rape - which I believe tend to be present in most cases?

Would it change your opinion if you knew that the players were found guilty by the university judicial system and they were dismissed from the university because of it?

[NersEllenson]

LOL.  Complete deflection.  Gotta love Ners.

Here is why I brought it up.  You have a complete inability to see any shades of gray in any situation. 

When you were on Buzz's side, you defended to the point of certainty that the alleged victim was simply "a woman scorned," and no matter how many times people pointed out the flaws in your argument, you were strident in your take.  At that point in time, you would pretty much do anything not to paint Buzz or his players in a poor light.

When you were not on Buzz's side, you continue to defend to the point of certainly that Derrick Wilson wasn't just *one* of the issues, he was *the* issue.  When people make a counter argument, ANY counter argument, you are strident in your belief.  At this point, everything Buzz did was wrong...his playing time, his substitutions, etc.

There is never any compromise...never any shades of gray...in Ners' world.  Only black and white.  Only right or wrong.

You were once King of the Slurpers.  And now you are King of the Rebellion.

I have an inability to see shades of grey?  I'm the one saying that an alleged sexual assault is the HEIGHT of shades of grey, particularly one that involves people who have had a consensual relationship historically....and I'm not going to pass judgment and say guilty...when no charges were ultimately filed.

As for Derrick...obviously, I feel quite strongly that his play was the MAIN reason the team had a bad season for all the reasons I've cited 1,000 times.  Having a PG that devoid of offensive ability kills a team...as does a head coach who decides to play the PG with a 2 guard that cannot create his own shot, or for the most part, make a 2 pt FG - together for 32 minutes a game.  Above Derrick and Jake, the biggest problem was Buzz for thinking he could somehow win games at a high level playing those guys more minutes than any other players on the team.  Yet, when I was blaming Buzz above Derrick?Jake/shades of grey) you of course were critical of my criticism of Buzz...saying his track record of results was proof that he was beyond making coaching mistakes.

[humanlung]

So...how about that Derrick Wilson minutes thing...

[willie warrior]

LOL.  Complete deflection.  Gotta love Ners.

Here is why I brought it up.  You have a complete inability to see any shades of gray in any situation. 

When you were on Buzz's side, you defended to the point of certainty that the alleged victim was simply "a woman scorned," and no matter how many times people pointed out the flaws in your argument, you were strident in your take.  At that point in time, you would pretty much do anything not to paint Buzz or his players in a poor light.

When you were not on Buzz's side, you continue to defend to the point of certainly that Derrick Wilson wasn't just *one* of the issues, he was *the* issue.  When people make a counter argument, ANY counter argument, you are strident in your belief.  At this point, everything Buzz did was wrong...his playing time, his substitutions, etc.

There is never any compromise...never any shades of gray...in Ners' world.  Only black and white.  Only right or wrong.

You were once King of the Slurpers.  And now you are King of the Rebellion.

Wow!! Huge praise from the Sultan calling Ners "once the King of slurpers" Unfortunately, that crown will always reside with the Sultan.