Poll: Derrick Wilson minutes

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Was he good on the elite eight team? Here's a little recap for you...13.1mpg, 1.1 ppg, 1.6 assts, 0.9 Rebs, 0.7 spg, and 0.5 to's per game. Also shot 27% from the field and 45% from the line. That to me, tells me he was pretty bad on that team as well. It was just more magnified last year, because he played more than twice as many minutes.

Right, and was he crippling MU for the 13mpg he played? Was MU a TERRIBLE team when he was in the game, but an E8 team when he was on the bench?

[NersEllenson]

Again, fine, but if he is historically bad, and a crippling PG, then he should have been crippling MU for the 13MPG he played the year before, right?

Was MU a significantly worse team when DW played vs when JC played?

Would those stats interest you?

Historically bad as a 30 MINUTE PER GAME STARTING PG...what part of the distinction between a backup 10 minute a game player versus leading minute getter on a team do you not understand??  Please...debate on the topic - shooting percentages from 1, 2 and 3 point.

And if you think Derrick Wilson is even comparable to Junior Cadougan (who wasn't even that great of PG), I don't know what to tell you.

[GGGG]

Historically bad as a 30 MINUTE PER GAME STARTING PG...

So your assertion is now that Derrick Wilson is the worst point guard ever who played 30 mpg?

At least your position has evolved reasonably...

[NersEllenson]

But they were still better.   

It's come to this..making statements of a guy being better than the average PG by 0.1, 0.1 and 0.8 in Derricks 3 best statistical categories....yet he averages 7.1 ppg less than the AVERAGE PG in the Big East and shoots 3's and FTS roughly 30% worse than the average Big East PG...and let's not forget...teams didn't even guard him withing 5-6 feet on the perimeter....do I really need to upload the picture again that shows how ridiculous it was??

[MUSF]

Please remind of the 8 statistical categories Derrick Wilson was in the Top 10 of in the Big East?  But guess what...a PG playing 31 minutes a game is going to get assists, steals and rebounds..Derrick's numbers in those categories where exactly 0.1, 0.1, and 0.8 per game better than the AVERAGE PG in the Big East.

None of this negates my original point. If Derrick truly didn't have any high major plus skills beyond defense as you asserted, he wouldn't be better than average. In fact, if he doesn't have high major ball handling and decision making ability, his assist to turnover ratio should have gone up with more minutes. Instead, he was top 5 in the Big East in that category. How could that be?

[NersEllenson]

So your assertion is now that Derrick Wilson is the worst point guard ever who played 30 mpg?

At least your position has evolved reasonably...

Go find me another PG that has played 30 minutes a game in a high major conference, that made exactly 1, 3pt shot for the season on 7% shooting, while shooting 43% from the line.

Good luck.  But I'll be glad to wear the egg on my face when you can cite just one example...go back 10 years if you want..

[Wojo'sMojo]

Right, and was he crippling MU for the 13mpg he played? Was MU a TERRIBLE team when he was in the game, but an E8 team when he was on the bench?

Well he sure as hell wasn't a positive. It's funny that you think if he wasn't "crippling" us, he was playing well enough to justify the minutes he was given. Because of his character, we settle for non crippling performances and tell ourselves he's an asset because of his ball control and defense  

[NersEllenson]

None of this negates my original point. If Derrick truly didn't have any high major plus skills beyond defense as you asserted, he wouldn't be better than average. In fact, if he doesn't have high major ball handling and decision making ability, his assist to turnover ratio should have gone up with more minutes. Instead, he was top 5 in the Big East in that category. How could that be?

Pretty hard to turn the ball over when teams sag 5-6' off of you in the halfcourt and apply no pressure to you....however there were a few times teams did pressure Derrick heavily, and he didn't handle it well at all..

And for the last time...getting an assist as a high major PG playing 30 minutes a game isn't exactly high major talent....recall how many assists he got in one game where Jamil was en fuego..and Derrick simply threw the ball backward, away from the goal to the trailing Jamil, and he drained 4 3's?  A 5th grader could have made those passes...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Historically bad as a 30 MINUTE PER GAME STARTING PG...what part of the distinction between a backup 10 minute a game player versus leading minute getter on a team do you not understand??  Please...debate on the topic - shooting percentages from 1, 2 and 3 point.

And if you think Derrick Wilson is even comparable to Junior Cadougan (who wasn't even that great of PG), I don't know what to tell you.

I think something is getting lost in translation. I'll clarify.

#1 Derrick Wilson is a bad starting PG. He should not play 30mpg.

#2 I don't think Derrick Wilson is such a historically bad PG that he is the sole cause all of MU's problems last season.

#3 If Derrick Wilson was bad enough to RUIN MU's season, wouldn't the E8's team's offensive & defensive numbers been HORRIBLE when Derrick was in the game back then?

#4 On the E8 team, did the team's production greatly decrease when DW was in the game (13mpg)?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well he sure as hell wasn't a positive. It's funny that you think if he wasn't "crippling" us, he was playing well enough to justify the minutes he was given. Because of his character, we settle for non crippling performances and tell ourselves he's an asset because of his ball control and defense  

Slow down, Amigo. You're projecting.

I never said anything about Derrick's character, or him deserving minutes, or his defense.  

He's not a good PG. Fine.

BUT, I don't think DW is the sole reason MU didn't make the tournament, as has been implied REPEATEDLY by 1 poster.

AND, I think it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE for 1 player to be the sole reason for a team's struggles. I mean, if you replaced Dwyane Wade with me, then yes, I would certainly be the problem. But, Wilson isn't a fat white guy off of the street. He's not THAT bad.

If he can be "ok" for 10mpg, then he can't be HISTORICALLY HORRIBLE if he plays 30mpg.

[MUSF]

Pretty hard to turn the ball over when teams sag 5-6' off of you in the halfcourt and apply no pressure to you....however there were a few times teams did pressure Derrick heavily, and he didn't handle it well at all..

You simply have tunnel vision on your established narrative at this point. Derrick's lack of shooting ability in no way explains his good assist to turnover ratio. There are so many different scenarios that create opportunities for turnovers in 30 mins of a bball game. If he truly didn't possess high major ability as a ball handler, decision maker, or passer, he would have many more turnovers.

[NersEllenson]

Slow down, Amigo. You're projecting.

I never said anything about Derrick's character, or him deserving minutes, or his defense.  

He's not a good PG. Fine.

BUT, I don't think DW is the sole reason MU didn't make the tournament, as has been implied REPEATEDLY by 1 poster.

AND, I think it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE for 1 player to be the sole reason for a team's struggles. I mean, if you replaced Dwyane Wade with me, then yes, I would certainly be the problem. But, Wilson isn't a fat white guy off of the street. He's not THAT bad.

If he can be "ok" for 10mpg, then he can't be HISTORICALLY HORRIBLE if he plays 30mpg.

I'll bet you could find a guy who plays 10 minutes a game at PG for a season, who only made 1, 3pt FG.  I'll bet you that you won't find a guy who played 966 minutes in a season as a PG who only made 1 3pt FG.  See the difference/distinction?

The warts are magnified 3 times in the 10 versus 30 minute a game scenario and cause 3 times the issues to a team.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'll just say this:

Derrick Wilson is not the only reason last year's team struggled.

I know that's a controversial opinion for some people, but I'm going to stand by it.

[NersEllenson]

I'll just say this:

Derrick Wilson is not the only reason last year's team struggled.

I know that's a controversial opinion for some people, but I'm going to stand by it.

Buzz Williams was the biggest reason..as he chose to play who he played and there were better options available.

Mayo/JJJ > Jake
Burton > Juan
Dawson > Derrick
Gardner > Otule  (no reason Gardner shouldn't have been playing 30-33 minutes per game)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Go find me another PG that has played 30 minutes a game in a high major conference, that made exactly 1, 3pt shot for the season on 7% shooting, while shooting 43% from the line.

Good luck.  But I'll be glad to wear the egg on my face when you can cite just one example...go back 10 years if you want..

I can't do that, you are right. But I can come close.

Tom Maayan averaged 22 minutes a game for Seton Hall during the 2012-2013 season. He was their starting PG. He averaged 1.8 ppg, made 2 three pointers all season, and shot an abysmal .353 from the FT line. He only made 22 FGs all season.

Not that this in anyway legitimizes Derrick Wilson. I just remembered Seton Hall having a terrible PG and went and looked up his stats.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Buzz Williams was the biggest reason..as he chose to play who he played and there were better options available.

Mayo/JJJ > Jake
Burton > Juan
Dawson > Derrick
Gardner > Otule  (no reason Gardner shouldn't have been playing 30-33 minutes per game)

Right, but doesn't this fly in the face of your "Derrick Wilson was historically bad" argument?

I mean, how is the kid supposed to be good if Buzz won't play the best players around him?

Maybe Derrick didn't make everybody else look bad, maybe everybody else was making derrick look bad? Maybe some combination of both?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Buzz...if he weren't intent on making a point to the admin and their issues on recruiting character risks...

I know you want to believe this is true. Hell, we all want to believe that by removing Buzz we will solve everything because we have "character risks" with talent on the bench.

I can assure you 100% that it is not true.

The talent is there. But Buzz did not play the roster he did to prove a point. Buzz played with the players he thought gave him the best chance to win.

The exceptions to this were Mayo, Johnson, and Taylor. Mayo was in Buzz' doghouse early and often and deserved to be there in his first two seasons. Because of this, Buzz was slow to trust and forgive any perceived transgression. JJJ and Steve, from what I am told, and I quote, "did not see eye to eye with Buzz." You can interpret this however you want. It could mean that Buzz was on a power trip. It could also mean that the players had an attitude. I think both are true, depending on who you talk to. There was definitely a rift between the administration and Buzz. I asked point blank "did Buzz play certain players to make a point to the administration?" The response was, and I quote again "Absolutely not, it is absurd to think so."

Everyone else's playing time was based off of what Buzz looked for in practice. Toughness, playing to the scouting report, and the ability to run his overly complex defensive schemes.

That last point was on of my biggest frustrations. If your defense is too complicated for your most talented players to run, then something is wrong IMHO.

[NersEllenson]

Right, but doesn't this fly in the face of your "Derrick Wilson was historically bad" argument?

I mean, how is the kid supposed to be good if Buzz won't play the best players around him?

Maybe Derrick didn't make everybody else look bad, maybe everybody else was making derrick look bad? Maybe some combination of both?

I can agree Buzz compounded Derrick's warts by starting him with Jake, Juan, and Chris.  However, the statement - maybe everybody else was making Derrick look bad - can't agree with....as every other player on the team, I recall being guarded honestly.  I've never seen a guard in high major basketball consistently sagged off of 5-6'.

No way, for example, Vander would have been as effective playing alongside Derrick, as his slashing lanes would have been shut off by Derrick's defender...where was our transition game this past season?  Why were we so ineffective pushing the tempo/ball..and getting easy baskets off of transition?

At the end of the day...it all rests at Buzz's feet.  How in God's name he thought he could compete legitimately with the starting 5 he rolled out (even though he made substitutions relatively early), it was just ludicrous.  Doubt you could find another Top 100 team that brought its two leading scorers off the bench.  Buzz was way out there last year..

 

[NersEllenson]

I can't do that, you are right. But I can come close.

Tom Maayan averaged 22 minutes a game for Seton Hall during the 2012-2013 season. He was their starting PG. He averaged 1.8 ppg, made 2 three pointers all season, and shot an abysmal .353 from the FT line. He only made 22 FGs all season.

Not that this in anyway legitimizes Derrick Wilson. I just remembered Seton Hall having a terrible PG and went and looked up his stats.

Interesting you recall Seton Hall having a "terrible" PG with stats similar to Derricks - albeit, he played 256 minutes less than Derrick or the equivalent of 6.4 less games.  Derrick should have gotten 22 minutes a game last year and Dawson the other 18...but nope...Buzz instead gave the guy more minutes than any other player on the team.

The fact none of the existing players transferred after Buzz left, says all we need to know about how they all felt about Buzz...JJJ and Steve Taylor were GONE if Buzz was still here...perhaps 1 or 2 others gone too...

[jesmu84]

Just to be clear, you are agreeing with MUSF that the argument others make that he quotes in his post where you have bolded is, as MUSF says, invalid because it's a logical fallacy.

Yes

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Interesting you recall Seton Hall having a "terrible" PG with stats similar to Derricks - albeit, he played 256 minutes less than Derrick or the equivalent of 6.4 less games.  Derrick should have gotten 22 minutes a game last year and Dawson the other 18...but nope...Buzz instead gave the guy more minutes than any other player on the team.

The fact none of the existing players transferred after Buzz left, says all we need to know about how they all felt about Buzz...JJJ and Steve Taylor were GONE if Buzz was still here...perhaps 1 or 2 others gone too...

I would agree with your first paragraph. To give one below average player so many minutes was questionable to me. But Buzz was convinced it was the winning formula. I think a 25/15 split would have been much better than a 32/8.

The second is a matter of perspective. If we would have had a great season last year and Buzz stayed, but JJJ and Taylor transferred, we would have been saying "they weren't good enough" "they have attitude problems" "we can get someone better." Winning cures all ailments.

[NersEllenson]

I would agree with your first paragraph. To give one below average player so many minutes was questionable to me. But Buzz was convinced it was the winning formula. I think a 25/15 split would have been much better than a 32/8.

The second is a matter of perspective. If we would have had a great season last year and Buzz stayed, but JJJ and Taylor transferred, we would have been saying "they weren't good enough" "they have attitude problems" "we can get someone better." Winning cures all ailments.

Winning certainly helps for sure...and had we won....Some may have dogged Steve and JJJ if they left, Dawson too...not me though...all three had good reasons to want to transfer at the end of this past season.  As all three were playing behind inferior players at their position while watching the losses mount and the guy in front of them flounder...other than Steve if you call him a stretch 4 like Jamil.

[willie warrior]

I know you want to believe this is true. Hell, we all want to believe that by removing Buzz we will solve everything because we have "character risks" with talent on the bench.

I can assure you 100% that it is not true.

The talent is there. But Buzz did not play the roster he did to prove a point. Buzz played with the players he thought gave him the best chance to win.

The exceptions to this were Mayo, Johnson, and Taylor. Mayo was in Buzz' doghouse early and often and deserved to be there in his first two seasons. Because of this, Buzz was slow to trust and forgive any perceived transgression. JJJ and Steve, from what I am told, and I quote, "did not see eye to eye with Buzz." You can interpret this however you want. It could mean that Buzz was on a power trip. It could also mean that the players had an attitude. I think both are true, depending on who you talk to. There was definitely a rift between the administration and Buzz. I asked point blank "did Buzz play certain players to make a point to the administration?" The response was, and I quote again "Absolutely not, it is absurd to think so."

Everyone else's playing time was based off of what Buzz looked for in practice. Toughness, playing to the scouting report, and the ability to run his overly complex defensive schemes.

That last point was on of my biggest frustrations. If your defense is too complicated for your most talented players to run, then something is wrong IMHO.

Hey Eagle--did it ever occur to you that your boy Buzz had the attitude? Probably not!

[MUSF]

Right, but doesn't this fly in the face of your "Derrick Wilson was historically bad" argument?

I mean, how is the kid supposed to be good if Buzz won't play the best players around him?

Maybe Derrick didn't make everybody else look bad, maybe everybody else was making derrick look bad? Maybe some combination of both?

It also reinforces the argument that Derrick wasn't our only problem, and maybe not even our biggest problem.

[jesmu84]

Everyone calm down. If Derrick only plays 10-15mpg or less next season and we play better, it will solidify that Derrick was the reason that we were so bad last season. And if we play worse, then it will only solidify that Derrick was the reason we were so bad last season.