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Author Topic: New Stadium Imminent?  (Read 77808 times)

Groin_pull

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2014, 02:06:58 PM »
You're fighting facts with an emotional appeal. Don't do that.


You can present as many "facts" as you want. Many Wisconsinites are already on your side...and your side will ultimately win. Congratulations.

As far as my being "emotional"...hardly. I left Milwaukee in '97 and while I certainly don't wish my hometown any ill will, the city is also firmly in my rearview mirror. What happens in Milwaukee has very little impact on me.

I live in an area with 2 MLB teams, 2 NFL teams, 1 NBA team, 1 NHL team, and even an MLS team. Throw in two Pac-12 schools and I'm surrounded by more than enough sports to keep me busy.

When the Bucks move, it won't bother me. And clearly, it won't bother most Wisconsinites. So again, everyone wins.

humanlung

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2014, 02:12:43 PM »
The comments here are exactly why a new arena will never get built in Milwaukee. The taxpayers won't pay a dime.

That's okay, because this will be a win-win-win for everyone involved.

Each taxpayer gets to avoid paying about $10 a year in a potential sales tax to fund a new arena.

The new Bucks owners get to move to a thriving market.

And the NBA gets to move out of a dying, rust belt town that most people couldn't find on a map.

See...everyone should be happy.

You are assuming that the average person spends $10,000 on sales-taxable items.  I would argue the $10 number is aggressive.

Your logic, however, is spot on and a testament to the complete and utter short-sighted stupidity of the people in the Milwaukee area who are STILL complaining about the sales tax to fund a ballpark.  To have a new stadium for the Brewers costs less than a large beer at the Bradley Center for the average person over a year and it's still a chorus of "I won't support any taxes for a new (insert venue here)!"  

Do you people understand how much business the Bucks/MU/Admirals drive to businesses downtown?  I have friends who own a bar on Water Street and they count on those events.  That business is not unique.  Underestimating the ripple effect of letting the Bucks go would be a serious mistake that would definitely show up in a loss of tax revenue from businesses that see profitability go down/away.

warriorchick

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2014, 02:14:26 PM »
How about Marquette throwing some money into the new arena as well?  There is no reason they can not put $25M or more into the pot, helps the city, why not!  They could bet a discounted
amount for the usage for the next 20 or 30 years as well to get some of that money back.

Even if MU had an extra $25 million sitting around (and they don't), there are at long list of buildings Marquette needs before a new arena.

A partial list:

New Bus Ad building
New Nursing building
More student housing
New rec center

Keep in mind that Marquette already plays in a better arena than over 90% of high major teams.  If the BOT was ever insane enough to throw money at a new arena, I know I wouldn't be the only alum to stop throwing money at Marquette.


Have some patience, FFS.

Litehouse

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2014, 02:15:20 PM »
Three sites appear most likely and in this order:

1. North of current BC in the former Park East space.  Pros:  Undeveloped so it is easy; keeps much of the infrastructure (parking, traffic flow) of the BC relevant; cheapest area to develop.  Cons:  Pushes facility further away from bars, restaurants and hotels; remains single use facility as won't be a part of a larger development project.

2. Tear down arena and MKE theater.  Pros:  Even more centrally located within the city; likely can be incorporated with convention center to create a more functional and larger space.  Cons:  More expensive to develop; Interests of more groups need to be considered

3.  Valley:  Pro: Potawatomi are far more likely to make a significant contribution if the venue is within walking distance of their properties  Con:  Doesn't really stimulate the city, it stimulates the casino; really hurts downtown business; Puts the NBA more in bed with gambling than they have been previously

I think #2 would be the best option long term.  Being able to directly link the Convention Center - New Arena - Bradley Center would give them a lot of options for hosting big events and provide the most economic bang for the buck.  It's too bad they spent all that money converting the old Auditorium into the Theater.  That was a huge waste of resources, and now it will probably prevent them from putting a new Arena on that block.

They could also build it over the entire 4 blocks that include the BC and parking lots.  That would allow the empty space to the north to be developed separately.  The Bucks and MU could play at the MECCA for a year.  One downside in that situation would be that the Admirals wouldn't be able to stay at the BC.  I'd prefer to keep the new arena a basketball building and keep hockey out.

Benny B

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2014, 02:16:21 PM »
So the Bucks leave, where does MU play then, the Mecca, MU would really be going the wrong direction, the building needs to much work the next 10 years per Marc Marotta, like 100M, play
at the Al?  The Al cost $31M to build, how much would be a new stadium on campus cost MU if they did it themselves?  $200M or more so why not help out?



My understanding is that the bulk of the construction costs for new arenas nowadays are the luxury seating and retail amenities.  If you build a basketball arena instead of a full-service entertainment destination, you could save a boatload of money.  The Cintas Center (Xavier) was completed in 2000 and cost $46M ($63M today, according to Wikipedia); the Sears Centre in Hoffman Estates was built for $62M in 2006.   MU doesn't need a 15,000-20,000 seat arena that fills up twice a year... it would do just fine with a 10,000 seater like Cintas or Sears.  In which case, let's say the cost to build would be in the neighborhood of $80-100M.

That being the case... where would you - as an MU alum - rather the university put $25M?  Into a multi-surface arena where you're a secondary tenant or as a down-payment for your own on-campus arena?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Benny B

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2014, 02:21:33 PM »
Even if MU had an extra $25 million sitting around (and they don't), there are at long list of buildings Marquette needs before a new arena.

A partial list:

New Bus Ad building
New Nursing building
More student housing
New rec center

Keep in mind that Marquette already plays in a better arena than over 90% of high major teams.  If the BOT was ever insane enough to throw money at a new arena, I know I wouldn't be the only alum to stop throwing money at Marquette.

BC might seem better than 90% of of high major arenas on the surface, but beneath the skin, there are a world of problems.  Without a major tenant like the Bucks, it will be able to afford putting up the "90%" facade for another 5-7 years at most.  It won't be long before it starts to resemble the feel of the Arena.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

warriorchick

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2014, 02:31:08 PM »


My understanding is that the bulk of the construction costs for new arenas nowadays are the luxury seating and retail amenities.  If you build a basketball arena instead of a full-service entertainment destination, you could save a boatload of money.  The Cintas Center (Xavier) was completed in 2000 and cost $46M ($63M today, according to Wikipedia); the Sears Centre in Hoffman Estates was built for $62M in 2006.   MU doesn't need a 15,000-20,000 seat arena that fills up twice a year... it would do just fine with a 10,000 seater like Cintas or Sears.  In which case, let's say the cost to build would be in the neighborhood of $80-100M.

That being the case... where would you - as an MU alum - rather the university put $25M?  Into a multi-surface arena where you're a secondary tenant or as a down-payment for your own on-campus arena?

Build a 10,000 seater for a team averages 15,000 in attendance per game?  Now that makes a ton of sense.
Have some patience, FFS.

BCHoopster

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2014, 02:32:13 PM »
Here is another idea for the governor to get abused on, they have $1B dollars right now, why not give $100M to keep probably a few thousand people in jobs in the facility and around the
facility.  Plus charge the hotels a little tax per room to help pay, most of those rooms will be empty for 50 nights for so without the NBA, that is like 25 rooms x 50 nights or at least 1000 rooms, high priced rooms.  Time for the state to chip in, basically you need to find different avenues to find money.  Let the city build the car lots and keep all the money.  To be a big league
city you need a vibrant downtown, 200 days a year the Bradley Center was used, so would the next facility.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2014, 02:35:28 PM »
You can present as many "facts" as you want. Many Wisconsinites are already on your side...and your side will ultimately win. Congratulations.

As far as my being "emotional"...hardly. I left Milwaukee in '97 and while I certainly don't wish my hometown any ill will, the city is also firmly in my rearview mirror. What happens in Milwaukee has very little impact on me.

I live in an area with 2 MLB teams, 2 NFL teams, 1 NBA team, 1 NHL team, and even an MLS team. Throw in two Pac-12 schools and I'm surrounded by more than enough sports to keep me busy.

When the Bucks move, it won't bother me. And clearly, it won't bother most Wisconsinites. So again, everyone wins.

#1 It's not about "winning" for me. It's about economics. I would love for the Bucks to stay, and have the ownership group build whatever arena they want.

#2 I didn't say you were being emotional, I said:
"You're fighting facts with an emotional appeal."

You're using terms like "winning", "thriving", "rust belt", "dying", "can't find on a map".

Those are terms and phrases that evoke an emotion or a feeling.

"Oh no!, we don't want to lose and be a dying city in the rust belt that nobody can find on a map! Quick, build a new arena!"

It's a common technique used in sales, marketing and even politics.

EXAMPLE:
- People buy mini-vans because of practicality, they buy based on functionality. "Look how these seats function!"
- People buy Corvettes because of how it makes them feel. "Look how cool you look!"

I don't want Milwaukee to build an arena because of how it makes us feel. I want them to do it if it makes sense.

GGGG

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2014, 02:36:42 PM »
Here is another idea for the governor to get abused on, they have $1B dollars right now, why not give $100M to keep probably a few thousand people in jobs in the facility and around the
facility.  Plus charge the hotels a little tax per room to help pay, most of those rooms will be empty for 50 nights for so without the NBA, that is like 25 rooms x 50 nights or at least 1000 rooms, high priced rooms.  Time for the state to chip in, basically you need to find different avenues to find money.  Let the city build the car lots and keep all the money.  To be a big league
city you need a vibrant downtown, 200 days a year the Bradley Center was used, so would the next facility.



I doubt that the Bucks presence is worth a "few thousand" jobs.  And even if it were worth 1,000 jobs, that is a $100,000 per job investment.  Not really all that efficient.  

Let's Go Warriors

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2014, 02:37:05 PM »
Here is another idea for the governor to get abused on, they have $1B dollars right now, why not give $100M to keep probably a few thousand people in jobs in the facility and around the
facility.  Plus charge the hotels a little tax per room to help pay, most of those rooms will be empty for 50 nights for so without the NBA, that is like 25 rooms x 50 nights or at least 1000 rooms, high priced rooms.  Time for the state to chip in, basically you need to find different avenues to find money.  Let the city build the car lots and keep all the money.  To be a big league
city you need a vibrant downtown, 200 days a year the Bradley Center was used, so would the next facility.


Time for the state to chip in?
I don't think so.
Warrior As defined by Webster's:
A person who fights in battles and is known for having courage and skill

jakeec

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2014, 02:40:48 PM »

Benny B

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2014, 02:40:57 PM »
Build a 10,000 seater for a team averages 15,000 in attendance per game?  Now that makes a ton of sense.

No one is suggesting you can't sell 15,000 tickets to the game even if you only have 10,000 seats... it wouldn't be a problem for most MU home games, anyway.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

akmarq

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2014, 02:46:12 PM »
You are assuming that the average person spends $10,000 on sales-taxable items.  I would argue the $10 number is aggressive.

Your logic, however, is spot on and a testament to the complete and utter short-sighted stupidity of the people in the Milwaukee area who are STILL complaining about the sales tax to fund a ballpark.  To have a new stadium for the Brewers costs less than a large beer at the Bradley Center for the average person over a year and it's still a chorus of "I won't support any taxes for a new (insert venue here)!"  

Do you people understand how much business the Bucks/MU/Admirals drive to businesses downtown?  I have friends who own a bar on Water Street and they count on those events.  That business is not unique.  Underestimating the ripple effect of letting the Bucks go would be a serious mistake that would definitely show up in a loss of tax revenue from businesses that see profitability go down/away.

No one here is saying 'don't spend money on anything ever.' Many of us who live in Milwaukee are saying that this is not the most productive or stimulative use of government revenue. I don't mind paying the sales tax at all (I'm already doing it) - I mind giving another huge public subsidy to an industry that's very inefficient, a total monopoly, and doesn't promote the growth that it's supports suggest it does.

Give me the same tax and put it toward building a tech development park or major research campus and I'd be casting a 'Yes' vote. NBA teams move to successful cities, they don't build them.

Everyone please read this before responding to any comments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 02:49:15 PM by akmarq »

akmarq

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2014, 02:48:21 PM »
Time for the state to chip in?
I don't think so.

I still think the most likely route is the Super TIF. Let's the city avoid going to a public vote on the issues and allows the MMAC to leverage the dollars they've spent for Walker getting something that they want. My understanding is that it turns the tax into a state tax and earmarks the funds for the project. A good idea in principle (since some projects ought to be managed by the state) but it's clearly being suggested as a way to bypass a vote the MMAC knows they can't win.

Litehouse

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2014, 02:53:13 PM »
Some good discussion here.
http://buckyville.yuku.com/topic/72268/Marquette-at-a-crossroads?page=1#.U1Vzoq1dUQQ

I should have known better, but clicked on it anyway.  That's the exact opposite of good discussion.  Just the usual suspects taking an opportunity to crap on Marquette and offering absolutely nothing about the arena issue.

humanlung

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2014, 02:59:21 PM »
No one here is saying 'don't spend money on anything ever.' Many of us who live in Milwaukee are saying that this is not the most productive or stimulative use of government revenue. I don't mind paying the sales tax at all (I'm already doing it) - I mind giving another huge public subsidy to an industry that's very inefficient, a total monopoly, and doesn't promote the growth that it's supports suggest it does.

Give me the same tax and put it toward building a tech development park or major research campus and I'd be casting a 'Yes' vote. NBA teams move to successful cities, they don't build them.

Everyone please read this before responding to any comments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Your points are good ones, however, it overlooks non-economic facets of the discussion, too.  My 17 year-old son still remembers his first MU and Bucks games when he was five.  Tech centers and research campuses don't have the same impact.

Fact is, there is an entire entertainment-related industry built around the downtown arenas and the cash those arenas bring to downtown.  Most of the people on this board enjoy those venues (and, no, I am not necessarily talking about Art's...)  Like it or not, major sports teams have a big impact, not just on the economy but quality of life.  The teams go, it impacts quality of life.  For $10 per year, I happily pony up for a new arena if it means my son gets to take his kids to their first game, too.  Just my opinion.

And considering all the stuff our local governments piss money away on, I am willing to live with another tax for this to ensure we don't become Columbus, Ohio.

    

GOO

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2014, 03:01:38 PM »
I should have known better, but clicked on it anyway.  That's the exact opposite of good discussion.  Just the usual suspects taking an opportunity to crap on Marquette and offering absolutely nothing about the arena issue.

It's a good discussion if your a delusional UW fan, hoping and against hope that MU is in a decline and is facing a crisis.  Other than that, not much to see.  However, each time they hope/think that somehow MU is about to implode, we seem to rise up.  So, here we come MU... get ready for the BE to prosper, a new arena, and success for Wojo.

Seriously, one guy even thinks the BE is having problems and may not be around in a couple of years... talk about not having a clue.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2014, 03:05:18 PM »
No one here is saying 'don't spend money on anything ever.' Many of us who live in Milwaukee are saying that this is not the most productive or stimulative use of government revenue. I don't mind paying the sales tax at all (I'm already doing it) - I mind giving another huge public subsidy to an industry that's very inefficient, a total monopoly, and doesn't promote the growth that it's supports suggest it does.

Give me the same tax and put it toward building a tech development park or major research campus and I'd be casting a 'Yes' vote. NBA teams move to successful cities, they don't build them.

Everyone please read this before responding to any comments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

EXACTLY.

I would love more freshwater science tech. Milwaukee is has a unique opportunity being on the lake. Not many cities in the word have that amount of freshwater nearby. Can Milwaukee do something unique that combines advanced technology and possibly something with freshwater science?

I still like energy (both alternative and traditional fossil) as an investment. People are going to need energy. Maybe Milwaukee can get out front and be at the leading edge of energy development or even production.

Litehouse

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2014, 03:07:12 PM »
Delusional UW fan is redundant.  Anyway, I see this whole thing as a win-win for MU.  Either (1) the Bucks get a new arena, and we get to play there.  or (2) They don't and move, we get the BC to ourselves, and our local fan-base increases since we're the best basketball entertainment option in town.

akmarq

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2014, 03:07:27 PM »
Your points are good ones, however, it overlooks non-economic facets of the discussion, too.  My 17 year-old son still remembers his first MU and Bucks games when he was five.  Tech centers and research campuses don't have the same impact.

Fact is, there is an entire entertainment-related industry built around the downtown arenas and the cash those arenas bring to downtown.  Most of the people on this board enjoy those venues (and, no, I am not necessarily talking about Art's...)  Like it or not, major sports teams have a big impact, not just on the economy but quality of life.  The teams go, it impacts quality of life.  For $10 per year, I happily pony up for a new arena if it means my son gets to take his kids to their first game, too.  Just my opinion.

And considering all the stuff our local governments piss money away on, I am willing to live with another tax for this to ensure we don't become Columbus, Ohio.

    

Until someone can actually quantify that impact, I'm going to be skeptical of the size of the impact. Of course business owners by the arena want it! But it's the city/state's job to take a broad view of Milwaukee's situation and decide the best use of resources. It's not like Seattle became a 3rd class city when the Sonics (admittedly not a 1:1 comparison) left and I'd rather live in MKE than OKC. The 'minor league city' argument just doesn't hold when you look at hard data and not our nebulous assessments of the city's 'perception.'

I mentioned in the Superbar thread (this was discussed there as well) that lots of investments would bring similar traffic to bars/entertainment businesses on Water/3rd. More condos, office buildings, or a new convention center would have a similar impact and employ a lot more people than the arena/Bucks would.

For me, it's looking at the NBA and seeing that it's not a sustainable investment for cities of MKE's size. If we're banking on the team being good in order for the investment to pan out, that's a terrible idea. For every OKC there's a Marlins, Cincinnati - heck - even Dallas is losing money hand over fist on that Cowboy's stadium.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2014, 03:15:38 PM »
Until someone can actually quantify that impact, I'm going to be skeptical of the size of the impact. Of course business owners by the arena want it! But it's the city/state's job to take a broad view of Milwaukee's situation and decide the best use of resources. It's not like Seattle became a 3rd class city when the Sonics (admittedly not a 1:1 comparison) left and I'd rather live in MKE than OKC. The 'minor league city' argument just doesn't hold when you look at hard data and not our nebulous assessments of the city's 'perception.'

I mentioned in the Superbar thread (this was discussed there as well) that lots of investments would bring similar traffic to bars/entertainment businesses on Water/3rd. More condos, office buildings, or a new convention center would have a similar impact and employ a lot more people than the arena/Bucks would.

For me, it's looking at the NBA and seeing that it's not a sustainable investment for cities of MKE's size. If we're banking on the team being good in order for the investment to pan out, that's a terrible idea. For every OKC there's a Marlins, Cincinnati - heck - even Dallas is losing money hand over fist on that Cowboy's stadium.


This is exactly where I'm at.

I will say that if they can get the cost down to something more reasonable (maybe $100million?? I dunno), then I think it's probably worth it.

Obviously the Bucks do have SOME economic impact, I just don't think it's $300-500 million.


Litehouse

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2014, 03:17:27 PM »
I don't think it's fair to compare a basketball arena to football and baseball stadiums.

NFL stadiums are a horrible investment, since they only get used about 10-12 days a year and require huge infrastructure investments to handle such large crowds.  Baseball stadiums are better, since they get used 81 days/year.  Arenas provide the most economic impact because they can be used 200+ days a year and draw crowds to the area during the winter months.

humanlung

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2014, 03:21:09 PM »
Until someone can actually quantify that impact, I'm going to be skeptical of the size of the impact. Of course business owners by the arena want it! But it's the city/state's job to take a broad view of Milwaukee's situation and decide the best use of resources. It's not like Seattle became a 3rd class city when the Sonics (admittedly not a 1:1 comparison) left and I'd rather live in MKE than OKC. The 'minor league city' argument just doesn't hold when you look at hard data and not our nebulous assessments of the city's 'perception.'

I mentioned in the Superbar thread (this was discussed there as well) that lots of investments would bring similar traffic to bars/entertainment businesses on Water/3rd. More condos, office buildings, or a new convention center would have a similar impact and employ a lot more people than the arena/Bucks would.

For me, it's looking at the NBA and seeing that it's not a sustainable investment for cities of MKE's size. If we're banking on the team being good in order for the investment to pan out, that's a terrible idea. For every OKC there's a Marlins, Cincinnati - heck - even Dallas is losing money hand over fist on that Cowboy's stadium.


This entire discussion is the EXACT same one that went on with Miller Park.  How many of you think it was a bad idea to give the Brewers a new home?

Oh...and how many times has the selling point "MU plays in an NBA arena." been used on the recruiting trail?  If the Bucks go, is there enough activity for the BC to stay a decent facility or does it slowly turn into the arena?  What impact does that have on MU?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 03:24:35 PM by humanlung »

JakeBarnes

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Re: New Stadium Imminent?
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2014, 03:22:27 PM »
Nm
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


 

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