OT: Calipari Gets $500,000 as NCAA Student Must Change Water

[MU8285]

+1

Hangin' at the Al
Forum / Message board for all things related Marquette Basketball - recruiting, coaching, game strategy, etc.

New Posts    The Superbar
What happens at the Superbar, stays at the Superbar. This is the place to talk about anything non-bball related, like jobs, technology, food & drink on campus, naked beer slide strategy, recent events, etc.

I would think anything that pertains to NCAA basketball as a whole pertains to MU basketball too.

More importantly, if we are going to split hairs, but if you want to argue this isn't MU BB related, if we get real technical this wouldn't have anywhere to go.  Hangin' at the AL is for MU basketball stuff, and The Superbar is for "anything non-bball related."  Since it is clearly BB related it doesn't belong in The Superbar either.

[Tugg Speedman]

Yup.

I always love the argument that Player X brings in all this revenue.  Well, actually, no he doesn't.  Before player X, the revenue was still there.  Kentucky sold out games before Coach Cal.  MU had top 20 attendance before a top 20 recruiting class.  Is there a bump here and there because of D Wade or whatever?  Sure...a small bump.  

The vast majority of season ticket holders are going to renew year in and year out because if they don't, they lose their seats.  Regardless of who is coaching or what talent they are bringing in.

You're again arguing the wrong thing.  It's not about paying the players, it's about "working conditions" to put it in union talk.  This is what they want.

* free tuition for life to get your undergraduate degree.  No more year to year deals.  If they want to kick you off (buzz cut) can still get tuition for life until you get an undergraduate degree.
* independent doctors for things like concussion tests
* health care for life for injuries related to your sport
* ability to have a job! even if related to sport (can play in summer league)
* access to agent and scouts.  So can have an agent, can get drafted (or not) can negotiate a contract and even participate in a summer league.  Then in September can either sign the contract or return to school
* full cost of housing and travel.  If Derrick Wilson wants to go home to Alaska over a break, MU will help him.  Similarly, if Duane Wilson wants yo do the same but only needs a two mile ride home, MU can help him too.  Also this means athletes at DePaul get more living expenses than athletes at Creighton because of the differing cost of living of each location.
* ownership of likeness and ability to sign endorsement deals
* more flexible transfer rules

[Skatastrophy]

Superbar.

[NavinRJohnson]

Yup.

I always love the argument that Player X brings in all this revenue.  Well, actually, no he doesn't.  Before player X, the revenue was still there.  Kentucky sold out games before Coach Cal.  MU had top 20 attendance before a top 20 recruiting class.  Is there a bump here and there because of D Wade or whatever?  Sure...a small bump. 

The vast majority of season ticket holders are going to renew year in and year out because if they don't, they lose their seats.  Regardless of who is coaching or what talent they are bringing in.

That's all fine and good, but there is still a Player X, regardless of who Player X is, and Player X does no play volleyball.

[NavinRJohnson]

Let me summarize this comment

You agree that football and basketball players are exploited and treated unfairly.  But you also agree that we should continue to treat them unfairly because it is more important to have a men's wrestling and women's softball team than be fair to football and basketball players.

You're close...most like to claim its about wrestling and volleyball, because that's easier to justify. Really its about themselves...they want their college football and basketball, and they know significant changes will jeopardize it.

There is simply is no way to justify football and basketball paying everyone else's way.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's all fine and good, but there is still a Player X, regardless of who Player X is, and Player X does no play volleyball.

And player X, who plays basketball is getting a $200K education, world class coaching, admittance to a university that he may not have been able to sniff without it, free exposure for his future employers on television, the chance to network with movers and shakers, etc, etc.

Then there's the other issue...what about player X that does play volleyball...or soccer..or track....

[NavinRJohnson]

Then there's the other issue...what about player X that does play volleyball...or soccer..or track....

You mean the one getting that same $200k education? What about him?

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're again arguing the wrong thing.  It's not about paying the players, it's about "working conditions" to put it in union talk.  This is what they want.

* free tuition for life to get your undergraduate degree.  No more year to year deals.  If they want to kick you off (buzz cut) can still get tuition for life until you get an undergraduate degree.
* independent doctors for things like concussion tests
* health care for life for injuries related to your sport
* ability to have a job! even if related to sport (can play in summer league)
* access to agent and scouts.  So can have an agent, can get drafted (or not) can negotiate a contract and even participate in a summer league.  Then in September can either sign the contract or return to school
* full cost of housing and travel.  If Derrick Wilson wants to go home to Alaska over a break, MU will help him.  Similarly, if Duane Wilson wants yo do the same but only needs a two mile ride home, MU can help him too.  Also this means athletes at DePaul get more living expenses than athletes at Creighton because of the differing cost of living of each location.
* ownership of likeness and ability to sign endorsement deals
* more flexible transfer rules

That's all wonderful.  They can pound sand.  Some of this stuff in your list they have had in the past, abused (the schools and players) so it was taken away.  

Why doesn't music major Sally get to go home to Alaska...or student athlete Ben, who happens to play volleyball and not basketball?

Ownership of their likeness...sign endorsement deals...what a great idea....that won't impact competition levels.  "Hey Lemarcus, sign here with us at Kentucky and I have 20 car dealerships owned by Kentucky alums that just want to use your image to hawk their cars...you'll get $50K from each one..what do you say?"

More flexible transfer rules....hell, why not have open free agency.  That will be awesome...some schools might not even have teams if it all goes well.

Ability to have a job...awesome.  Let's see, I'm old enough (and I'm not that old) to remember Oklahoma football players being paid to water lawns (which they didn't do) or work at swimming pools and get paid for work they didn't do.  Who is monitoring the pay and whether the work is actually done?  The schools?  LOL

Free tuition for life.   Cuz everything in life should be FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE     This is a two way street, you come play for us we give you an education.  There are 4 year scholarships available TODAY.  If you want a guaranteed 4 year ride, find a school that will give you one.  The real world, however, is a world in which no day is guaranteed and you can be out of a job any day.  

Health care for life due to injuries.  Does this count injuries they had in high school?  How about grade school?  How do we know what damaged what and led to what injury?  I have to sit in a chair at work, causes my back issues.  Do I get to go after my employer for back issues?  What about eye issues from staring at a computer?

They have access to professional scouting services today, as long as they don't sign with them.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're close...most like to claim its about wrestling and volleyball, because that's easier to justify. Really its about themselves...they want their college football and basketball, and they know significant changes will jeopardize it.

There is simply is no way to justify football and basketball paying everyone else's way.

Sounds like the 53% that pay taxes for the 100%.....

[ZiggysFryBoy]

how does NCAA hockey work?  Don't those guys play pro in lower levels for a few years before going to college?  One of UW's good players just left the school after they lost in the playoffs and is starting to play with an NHL team b/c they had his draft rights from a year or 2 ago.  Baseball drafts guys that play in college.  Baseball drafts basketball players that play basketball in college.  (What was Crawford's deal?)

[ChicosBailBonds]

You mean the one getting that same $200k education? What about him?

What are you doing for him\her?  They are putting in the hours, representing the school, having to practice, travel, etc. 

[NavinRJohnson]

Ownership of their likeness...sign endorsement deals...what a great idea....that won't impact competition levels.  "Hey Lemarcus, sign here with us at Kentucky and I have 20 car dealerships owned by Kentucky alums that just want to use your image to hawk their cars...you'll get $50K from each one..what do you say?"

Why is that a problem? If that's what the market for these guys is, why shouldn't they been entitled to it?

More flexible transfer rules....hell, why not have open free agency.  That will be awesome...some schools might not even have teams if it all goes well.

And? So what?

[Coleman]

Its fine if the occasional non MU bball-related post ends up on Hangin' at the Al, it happens.

But Heisenberg, you are by far the worst offender. 75% of your stuff should be in the Superbar. Add me to the list of people who would appreciate it if you used that forum more often. Especially when you KNOW something is OT by including it in the title.

[NavinRJohnson]

What are you doing for him\her?  They are putting in the hours, representing the school, having to practice, travel, etc. 

That's great. Not disputing they are putting in work. The school just doesn't get any money in return for that work. That all comes from the revenue sports that fund those volleyball and wrestling programs.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Because the NCAA was setup to at least TRY and have some semblance of fairness in competition.  It isn't going to be, but you can put governors on it to at least attempt to level the playing field.

If you want to get an endorsement deal, go pro.  This isn't pro sports.  You're making a professional sports argument and all that will do is corrupt the process even further.  There are avenues for this stuff...want an endorsement, go to the D-League.  Go play overseas. 

We've gone over transfer rules a million times here. No one said it better than Izzo.  Life is about commitments.  You entered into a commitment to play HERE and in return we feed you, room you, teach you, train you, and prepare you for your next step in life.  We are making a substantial investment in you in time, effort, dollars for which you will benefit, even if you do not go on to a pro sports career.  If you choose to leave HERE at some point it means you have to sit out a year.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND MR. ATHLETE what the commitment is and what the ramifications are if you choose to leave?

[ChicosBailBonds]

That's great. Not disputing they are putting in work. The school just doesn't get any money in return for that work. That all comes from the revenue sports that fund those volleyball and wrestling programs.

Yup.  No one has ever said differently, but the law of the land will come into play here. 

[NavinRJohnson]

This isn't pro sports. 

That's funny.

The NCAA has been given the ability to maintain the sham of amateurism to maintain control of where the $ goes. The market (like you), knows that loosening those restrictions will eventually kill the product - and nobody wants that. Selfish people being selfish. I get it. I'm guilty of it myself every time I buy a ticket or turn in the TV.

We've gone over transfer rules a million times here. No one said it better than Izzo.  Life is about commitments.  You entered into a commitment to play HERE and in return we feed you, room you, teach you, train you, and prepare you for your next step in life.  We are making a substantial investment in you in time, effort, dollars for which you will benefit, even if you do not go on to a pro sports career.  If you choose to leave HERE at some point it means you have to sit out a year.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND MR. ATHLETE what the commitment is and what the ramifications are if you choose to leave?


I get that, just would like to see coaches, etc. held to the same standard. Coaches of course have contractual/financial ramifications as a means of honoring their commitments.  Of course since players aren't paid, that is not an option for them.

[Tugg Speedman]

Yup.  No one has ever said differently, but the law of the land will come into play here. 

That is why NU is allowed to create a union.  And they will create it and it will start collective bargaining because it will take the courts years to rule on this.

And it will and it will survive court challenges.  Because, the amount of money involved colors decision and the billions that the schools make off revenue sports are coloring those decisions ... against the schools.

A good lawyer here will tell you perceptions matter, even to judges and courts.  And when the NCAA is pocketing $11 billion over 14 years and it changes how things are viewed.

The NCAA has two options

Option 1:  Hire Chicos as their spokesman.  This will result in them getting steamrolled by epic changes and losing control of the process.

Option 2:  recognize the world is different, radically change and manage that process.

It's no longer if the NCAA radically changes.  It about who leads the changes.

[Hards Alumni]

That is why NU is allowed to create a union.  And they will create it and it will start collective bargaining because it will take the courts years to rule on this.

And it will and it will survive court challenges.  Because, the amount of money involved colors decision and the billions that the schools make off revenue sports are coloring those decisions ... against the schools.

A good lawyer here will tell you perceptions matter, even to judges and courts.  And when the NCAA is pocketing $11 billion over 14 years and it changes how things are viewed.

The NCAA has two options

Option 1:  Hire Chicos as their spokesman.  This will result in them getting steamrolled by epic changes and losing control of the process.

Option 2:  recognize the world is different, radically change and manage that process.

It's no longer if the NCAA radically changes.  It about who leads the changes.

Or the NCAA can go tell the union to go pound sand, like Chicos says (I agree, oddly), because the union has zero leverage.  Walk out?  Cool story bro, I can find kids anywhere who are willing to play college sports (Check the intramural teams first!).  The student athletes have FAR more to lose in this situation.  Imagine being an 18 year old kid and you can either:

Go to school for free under the current system and have a chance to go pro.

Unionize, sit out with others, get older, and have no chance to go pro (since you don't play)

No way this union does anything.  It has NOTHING to offer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Navin

This isn't pro sports.  I know people can't wait to use the exceptions to the rule and say certain schools with certain players are pseudo pros.  I'm not going to argue that, some of it goes on.  However, in most schools that isn't the case.

A professional basketball player doesn't have to go to class...he plays basketball full time.  That is not what a student athlete does.  He is limited in the hours he can practice, must take a certain number of classes to be eligible, must actually pass classes to be eligible, etc.  A professional has a guaranteed contract, a student athlete must actually renew it each year.  Obviously many other differences.

There are professional leagues out there for kids that want this, let them go there.  If you want to be treated like a pro, or want to be compensated in some fashion, then go to where those things are. 

[LegalEagle15]

Courts are actually pretty favorable of the amateurism model...

The NCAA has a number of options. They can actually go to court and list off the cases in which courts, including the Supreme Court, have said. For instance, I'll quote Justice Stevens from NCAA vs. Board of Regents: "The NCAA plays a critical role in the maintenance of a revere tradition of amateurism in college sports." If you'd like I could go find some more cases to cite, but I think that pretty much sums up the point.

Simply put, amateurism is viewed as good thing in the American legal system.

Are we all a little turned off at the fact individuals like Calipari make seven figures a year? Yes. Coaching contracts are way out of control, but the NCAA can't put a cap on coaching salaries. Also, nobody is forcing these kids to participate in college athletics. Freedom of contract, they can choose to take part in the system and reap the benefits of a free education or not. Take the Brandon Jennings route if you really don't want to participate in NCAA sports.

[Tugg Speedman]

Or the NCAA can go tell the union to go pound sand, like Chicos says (I agree, oddly), because the union has zero leverage.  Walk out?  Cool story bro, I can find kids anywhere who are willing to play college sports (Check the intramural teams first!).  The student athletes have FAR more to lose in this situation.  Imagine being an 18 year old kid and you can either:

Go to school for free under the current system and have a chance to go pro.

Unionize, sit out with others, get older, and have no chance to go pro (since you don't play)

No way this union does anything.  It has NOTHING to offer.

You're making a mistake in thinking this is unique to Northwestern.  They have plans to unionize dozens of programs.  See the first post, Zach Bohannon from Bucky has been on the conference call about unionizing.

Epic change is going to happen. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Northwestern is just the first, lots will follow.


All Players United campaign launched with 'APU' on wrist tape

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/23769680/all-players-united-campaign-launched-with-apu-on-wrist-tape

September 21, 2013

Players from Georgia Tech and Georgia wrote "APU" on their wrist tape, an acronym standing for "All Players United," in act of protest against the NCAA's treatment of athletes.

The movement is being backed by the National College Players Association, and NCPA president Ramogi Huma said that the gesture has been discussed for months via weekly conference calls with players across the country. It is expected that players will continue to use the social-media hashtags #APU and #AllPlayersUnited, along with more exposure in nationally televised games.

"Players will continue to wear the APU throughout the season and spread the word," Huma told Outside The Lines. "They're taking the reform effort to television, which has never been done. They've been using their bodies to make money for the people who run NCAA sports. Now, for the first time, they're using their bodies to push for basic protections at the very least."

Georgia Tech starting quarterback Vad Lee can seen below with the "APU" on his wrist, along with Synjyn Days (above) and All-ACC defensive end Jeremiah Attaochu. At Georgia, the entire starting offensive line joined Kolton Houston, the junior forced to sit out three years because of a failed NCAA drug test, with APU written on their wrist.

According to NCPAnow.org, there are four primary goals of the #AllPlayersUnited campaign.

• Demonstrate unity among college athletes and fans in favor of NCAA reform.

• Show support for players who joined concussion lawsuits against the NCAA, which could "force the NCAA to finally take meaningful steps to minimize brain trauma in contact sports and provide resources for current and former players suffering with brain injuries."

• Show support for the players who "stepped up in the O'Bannon v. NCAA, EA Sports lawsuit regarding the use of players' images/likeliness, which could unlock billions of dollars in resources for current, future, and former players."

• Stand behind individual players being "harmed by NCAA rules."

After All Players United became a national story on Saturday, the NCAA issued an official statement in response to the movement.

"As a higher education association, the NCAA supports open and civil debate regarding all aspects of college athletics," NCAA Director of Public and Media Relations Stacey Osburn said in a statement. "Student-athletes across all 23 sports provide an important voice in discussions as NCAA members offer academic and athletic opportunities to help the more than 450,000 student-athletes achieve their full potential."

[Hards Alumni]

You're making a mistake in thinking this is unique to Northwestern.  They have plans to unionize dozens of programs.  See the first post, Zach Bohannon from Bucky has been on the conference call about unionizing.

Epic change is going to happen. 

Totally disagree.  It won't happen.  What can those players offer that lesser players who would simply accept a scholarship and play?

You have to address the leverage that they would have as a Union.  I dont see any.

[LegalEagle15]

Except the ruling from the NLRB pertains to only Northwestern's scholarship football players...which means while Zach Bohannon can sound the clarion horn for unionization, he's going to need some help from the NLRB to do anything. Change may be coming, but it's going to take a lot of judges and officials ignoring a lot of precedent to get there.

Also if the players unionize that means the NCAA and schools can just lockout players after a good faith negotiating effort. If I was the NCAA I'd sit down at the bargaining table, offer to pay them the value of their scholarships, and concede some points on practice times and hours, give in to the health and safety thing (which I think is a good idea btw) and then say take it or leave it. If there's an impasse on the issue, the NCAA and schools then have the option to lockout players. How long do you think players would last before they came back?

Furthermore does anyone else think the players derive value from being associated with the university? Nobody really talks about this but the players get a huge benefit from being associated with Duke or NC or Texas. There are kids who are just as talented at lesser schools whom you never hear of because they don't go to a big time institution, but then make it in the pros.