"It could get a lot worse..."

[NersEllenson]

Recall at numerous times during the season, dating back to early non conference games, reading about how things could get a lot worse if we'd played the freshman more...especially Dawson.  Well, what are Scoopers thoughts now as the season is over - NO NCAA, No NIT, and don't even have a gauge as to what team would look like with Dawson running the point for 30 minutes per game - and he didn't get much game experience...and JJJ...what can you say?  Burton WAY underutilized...

Perhaps Buzz was trying to just plant a chip on these guys shoulders - as he's said previously - if a guy doesn't have a chip on his shoulder..I'm going to find a way to put one there.  Can't think of any other plausible explanation.

The WORST possible outcome happened this year.  No post season, limited experience for freshman, likely alienated highest recruit in class (JJJ) which will likely result in a transfer, and we saw all kinds of lineup changes/tinkering done....other than clearly the most obvious one necessary.  Mind boggling.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I still doubt the transfer but I will agree the lack of playing time didnt help. In all honesty the real seat back was the Duane injury. Before the season, NOBODY saw Dawson even seeing the floor. Not even you Ners. I dont think he shoould have gotten anywhere near 30 min a game but at least closer to 15-20.

[willie warrior]

Recall at numerous times during the season, dating back to early non conference games, reading about how things could get a lot worse if we'd played the freshman more...especially Dawson.  Well, what are Scoopers thoughts now as the season is over - NO NCAA, No NIT, and don't even have a gauge as to what team would look like with Dawson running the point for 30 minutes per game - and he didn't get much game experience...and JJJ...what can you say?  Burton WAY underutilized...

Perhaps Buzz was trying to just plant a chip on these guys shoulders - as he's said previously - if a guy doesn't have a chip on his shoulder..I'm going to find a way to put one there.  Can't think of any other plausible explanation.

The WORST possible outcome happened this year.  No post season, limited experience for freshman, likely alienated highest recruit in class (JJJ) which will likely result in a transfer, and we saw all kinds of lineup changes/tinkering done....other than clearly the most obvious one necessary.  Mind boggling.

Ners, while your tenacity is admirable, you will not change any of the slurpers minds. Many have already checked out for a while, probably hoping that the bad taste will be forgotten. How many have really said that the Da Coach did a piss poor job this year, that have slurped all year? While we all hope that Buzz dramatically pulls a rabbit, realistically, will it happen? Well Buzz has his mulligan--let's see what develops.

[downtown85]

Recall at numerous times during the season, dating back to early non conference games, reading about how things could get a lot worse if we'd played the freshman more...especially Dawson.  Well, what are Scoopers thoughts now as the season is over - NO NCAA, No NIT, and don't even have a gauge as to what team would look like with Dawson running the point for 30 minutes per game - and he didn't get much game experience...and JJJ...what can you say?  Burton WAY underutilized...

Perhaps Buzz was trying to just plant a chip on these guys shoulders - as he's said previously - if a guy doesn't have a chip on his shoulder..I'm going to find a way to put one there.  Can't think of any other plausible explanation.

The WORST possible outcome happened this year.  No post season, limited experience for freshman, likely alienated highest recruit in class (JJJ) which will likely result in a transfer, and we saw all kinds of lineup changes/tinkering done....other than clearly the most obvious one necessary.  Mind boggling.

Do you have any info on JJJ or are you just speculating?  But yes the returning guys should have huge chips on their shoulders if they want to play. I also think this is a huge learning experience for Buzz as his "magic formula" which worked for the 5 previous seasons didn't work this year with the complexion of the roster.

[79Warrior]

Recall at numerous times during the season, dating back to early non conference games, reading about how things could get a lot worse if we'd played the freshman more...especially Dawson.  Well, what are Scoopers thoughts now as the season is over - NO NCAA, No NIT, and don't even have a gauge as to what team would look like with Dawson running the point for 30 minutes per game - and he didn't get much game experience...and JJJ...what can you say?  Burton WAY underutilized...

Perhaps Buzz was trying to just plant a chip on these guys shoulders - as he's said previously - if a guy doesn't have a chip on his shoulder..I'm going to find a way to put one there.  Can't think of any other plausible explanation.

The WORST possible outcome happened this year.  No post season, limited experience for freshman, likely alienated highest recruit in class (JJJ) which will likely result in a transfer, and we saw all kinds of lineup changes/tinkering done....other than clearly the most obvious one necessary.  Mind boggling.

Drama queen? Give me a break. How about JJJ was not ready? Ever think that is possible? Why did Burton see the floor, as a freshman, and not JJJ. Do you ever factor the kid was not at the skill set needed to play at this level as a Freshman?

[BCHoopster]

They will only improve if the point guard and 2 guard next year improve, it is not hard to figure.  Todd plays better at the 3 as he is slightly quicker than the player guarding him, at the two he is
a step slow.  So there has to be great improvement in Derrick, (do not see it), Duane and Dawson.  The 2 guard needs improvement from JJJ and if Ahmed Hill is that good to step in as a freshman.
Fisher will be fine, Pierce will be a back-up, Taylor will have to get stronger and get over his knee problem.  Burton will be fine at the small forward or power forward.   That is your Top 10, if you get
anything out of Shayok, Cohen and finally Juan that is all a plus.  If someone leaves, then Harris will back-up Taylor and Burton if they play big.  It is pretty simple.  Can they be better next year,
only if the point guard as the ability to score and not play 4 on 5 like this year and at times 3 on 5 on the offensive end.  Buzz also has to stop the defensive and offensive substitution pattern, to hard on players, play a minute and get substituted, no player likes that.  They should have the offensive ability to score at the end of games, this year they did not have a clutch player.  I think
Todd showed it, Burton can, and Wilson hopefully.  They can be better.

[connie]

Ners, I give you credit for being out front on this.  In hindsight, you have proven to be correct. Even given your unfailing refusal to see other potential causes/explanations, this was indeed the worst possible outcome, and now we have to deal with it.  (Haven't seen anything that leads me to believe anyone knows what is going on with JJJ though.)

[NersEllenson]

Drama queen? Give me a break. How about JJJ was not ready? Ever think that is possible? Why did Burton see the floor, as a freshman, and not JJJ. Do you ever factor the kid was not at the skill set needed to play at this level as a Freshman?

Why did Burton see the floor 6 minutes less per game than the next closest guy on the Big East all freshman team?  Is there even a contest for a second as to who's better?  Juan Anderson or Deonte Burton?  JJJ?  He was a hell of a lot more ready than Vander Blue was when he showed up at Marquette...yet Vander got 18 minutes a game as a freshman starter...and wasn't subjected to sitting behind a walk on...who made roughly 5, 2 point FGs for the season as the 2nd leading minute getter on team as a starting shooting guard.  And Derrick?  Nothing more needs to be said..

Buzz needs to seriously re-evaluate his aversion to playing freshman  - especially when they are talented and the vets have shown you that can't produce JACK after being given 10+ games of max minutes to show what they can do...if they can't get it done...start to balance PT between vet and freshman until more talented freshman eventually dictates getting majority of minutes..

[GooooMarquette]

Yes, it could have been worse.  We could have been sub-.500.  And while the frosh might have been the answer, it's also quite possible that they weren't.

If JJJ and Dawson start next season and things aren't going well by January, are you going to call for them to be benched and replaced with a couple of frosh?

[chapman]

Drama queen? Give me a break. How about JJJ was not ready? Ever think that is possible? Why did Burton see the floor, as a freshman, and not JJJ. Do you ever factor the kid was not at the skill set needed to play at this level as a Freshman?

That's fine.  But then a good amount of the blame lies with the coaching staff for their inability to develop a top 40 recruit to be able to even see the floor on a bad team by the end of the season.

[keefe]

Yes, it could have been worse.  We could have been sub-.500. 

We were sub-500 in conference play. 9-10.

And if you remove the sub-300 RPI cupcakes from the schedule we were sub-500 for the season. 11-15.

[NersEllenson]

Yes, it could have been worse.  We could have been sub-.500.  And while the frosh might have been the answer, it's also quite possible that they weren't.

If JJJ and Dawson start next season and things aren't going well by January, are you going to call for them to be benched and replaced with a couple of frosh?

It sure would have been nice to find out...but instead we have no idea...turned out to be a waste of a year and Davante's senior year.  It was evident this team wasn't going anywhere if changes weren't made at PG most notably...at the 3 (Burton for Juan), and at 2 Guard - Mayo getting max minutes/JJJ some/Jake some.  You simply will not find another max minute PG that put up the numbers Derrick did..and who is totally and completely unwilling to shoot outside of 2-3 feet from the basket.

And yes...if I see Dawson struggling 10 games into his sophomore year..while getting 30 minutes of playing time...(not getting yanked in and out, and at first mistake), I'll gladly call for Duane to get more of a look...or even Derrick for that matter...

[CTWarrior]

Yes, it could have been worse.  We could have been sub-.500.  And while the frosh might have been the answer, it's also quite possible that they weren't.

If JJJ and Dawson start next season and things aren't going well by January, are you going to call for them to be benched and replaced with a couple of frosh?

We are not in postseason.  Sub .500 would not have been worse if we learned more about those players who will be on the team next year and those players gained valuable experience.  Is it really that much worse to be 15-17 and not in the postseason than 17-15 and not in the postseason?  I don't think so.

I would not concede we would have had a better record had we played the freshmen more and Thomas/DeWilson/Anderson less, but, as it turns out, we would have been better prepared for next season.  

I understand Buzz cannot think that way and I don't want him to think that way.  He owes to the kids on the team and to most fans to play the team he thinks will win the most.  So I am not complaining about how he ran the team.  I think we were just caught a couple of guards short this season as the grand plan had Duane Wilson and Vander Blue suiting up.

But it is fair to say that the way this season shook out nearly as badly as it could get for a team that did not suffer catastrophic injuries.  No postseason and most of the discretionary minutes given to players who are least likely to help us in the future.  

The one bright side is that the kids who return next year will have it cemented into their psyche what Buzz expects from them and will be better incentivized to provide it.

[GooooMarquette]

The one bright side is that the kids who return next year will have it cemented into their psyche what Buzz expects from them and will be better incentivized to provide it.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

[mu03eng]

It sure would have been nice to find out...but instead we have no idea...turned out to be a waste of a year and Davante's senior year.  It was evident this team wasn't going anywhere if changes weren't made at PG most notably...at the 3 (Burton for Juan), and at 2 Guard - Mayo getting max minutes/JJJ some/Jake some.  You simply will not find another max minute PG that put up the numbers Derrick did..and who is totally and completely unwilling to shoot outside of 2-3 feet from the basket.

And yes...if I see Dawson struggling 10 games into his sophomore year..while getting 30 minutes of playing time...(not getting yanked in and out, and at first mistake), I'll gladly call for Duane to get more of a look...or even Derrick for that matter...

The final stop, one could argue proves you were right all along.  However, I don't think that's the whole story.  Keep in mind as of February 16th Marquette was 15-11, 7-5 and tied for 5th in conference and then as of March 1st MU was 17-12, 9-6 and tied for 3rd in conference.  At that point the team was still in a position to win a bid for the NIT at a minimum and NCAA on the outside.  If Buzz knew the outcome at that point would he have played the freshmen more prior...not sure.

Burton could have gotten a few more minutes, but I definitely remember time around mid to late January where he was struggling.  Also, I haven't seen anything from JJJ or Dawson that says they would have produced a better record than we did.

So for me it's the following question....do you semi-throw in the towel early to play freshmen to gain a run for next year and maybe get lucky they are good enough for something this year.....or do you go with the upperclassman who are going to have to work to accomplish things in the post season. 

When should Buzz have "known" the season was lost with the upperclassmen?  I didn't loose all hope until the Nova game in March.

I just didn't see enough this season until it was too late to make any impact on the freshmen experience.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ners, I will give you credit for being right that with the lineup we played, that we will not be in the NCAA. You were 100% correct on that.

Right about playing the frosh to make it better? Maybe. We will never know. I also don't feel like a coach should trot out players just to see if they would work or not. However, I do question how little run some players got. It was clear that Derrick did not have the stamina to go 35+ minutes per game. Dawson should have gotten more time.

Here is my theory. It is similar to your "putting a chip on their shoulder" theory. The freshmen might be more talented, but they do not have the right attitude, toughness, and work ethic. Buzz has said repeatedly that "the toughest players will play." What kind of message does it send to his team if he goes back on his word and plays the lazier players? Would he ever be able to hold his team accountable again? It is a frustrating approach for us fans, because we want results now. But if it works, it will pay huge dividends in future seasons.

However, I have a hard time believing that some players are still not getting the message. You'd think after consistent stinted minutes that a player would get the message. Maybe it takes a long time to get back in Buzz's good graces? Actually, Mayo would be a good example of that. Had the issue last year and it is only in the second half of this season that he has started to get extended runs again.

As CT said, the frosh know exactly what Buzz expects of them to get playing time now. And they will have a whole offseason to get it done. And with Luke and Duane being liasons of a sort between the two classes, hopefully they can pass this message on to the 2014 class right away.

We are at low point now but the future is bright! 2015 will be a lot better than 2014!

[Eldon]

I still doubt the transfer but I will agree the lack of playing time didnt help. In all honesty the real seat back was the Duane injury. Before the season, NOBODY saw Dawson even seeing the floor. Not even you Ners. I dont think he shoould have gotten anywhere near 30 min a game but at least closer to 15-20.

This is why I bumped that crazy old thread--Davane said Dawson was better than Duane. 

Anyone hoping that Duane will take us to the FF is engaging in the exact same wishful thinking that got us to where we are today

[79Warrior]

That's fine.  But then a good amount of the blame lies with the coaching staff for their inability to develop a top 40 recruit to be able to even see the floor on a bad team by the end of the season.

Man, you guys are looking for something that probably is not there. Does every top 40 recruit work out? What if he just is not a fit for Buzz's style of play? Or maybe Buzz does not want to play guys who can help the team win? Maybe, just maybe, JJJ is not all that.

[NersEllenson]

The final stop, one could argue proves you were right all along.  However, I don't think that's the whole story.  Keep in mind as of February 16th Marquette was 15-11, 7-5 and tied for 5th in conference and then as of March 1st MU was 17-12, 9-6 and tied for 3rd in conference.  At that point the team was still in a position to win a bid for the NIT at a minimum and NCAA on the outside.  If Buzz knew the outcome at that point would he have played the freshmen more prior...not sure.

Burton could have gotten a few more minutes, but I definitely remember time around mid to late January where he was struggling.  Also, I haven't seen anything from JJJ or Dawson that says they would have produced a better record than we did.

I'd say some of that record was fools gold.  Losing in OT at Butler was bad.  Getting the doors blown off by Creighton on road showed how far away we were from being elite in conference.  Not registering one decent win against decent/good teams we played in non-conference were all alarms in my opinion...as were the ugly wins against Southern and New Hampshire in first 4 games of season...

At the end of the day, it was just clearly evident watching how stagnant and challenged the team was offensively, that it was going to be a major struggle all year.  You simply cannot have a PG that is that limited orchestrating your team 32+ minutes per game...game in, game out.

And yes, I realize Dawson wasn't as secure with the ball as Derrick...but...his upside is without question greater..and had he been allowed to play through mistakes/freshman growing pains in nonconference play...think his play would have stabilized and been an upgrade by February.  Additionally, just think it was pretty awful, that he got one game with a fair shake - GTwon - and played really well.  But..thereafter, if he came in a game and made a mistake (maybe 2 on a really long leash day), he'd be immediately yanked and relegated to the bench for the rest of the game...

[Eldon]

I'd say some of that record was fools gold.  Losing in OT at Butler was bad.  Getting the doors blown off by Creighton on road showed how far away we were from being elite in conference.  Not registering one decent win against decent/good teams we played in non-conference were all alarms in my opinion...as were the ugly wins against Southern and New Hampshire in first 4 games of season...

At the end of the day, it was just clearly evident watching how stagnant and challenged the team was offensively, that it was going to be a major struggle all year.  You simply cannot have a PG that is that limited orchestrating your team 32+ minutes per game...game in, game out.

And yes, I realize Dawson wasn't as secure with the ball as Derrick...but...his upside is without question greater..and had he been allowed to play through mistakes/freshman growing pains in nonconference play...think his play would have stabilized and been an upgrade by February.  Additionally, just think it was pretty awful, that he got one game with a fair shake - GTwon - and played really well.  But..thereafter, if he came in a game and made a mistake (maybe 2 on a really long leash day), he'd be immediately yanked and relegated to the bench for the rest of the game...

Ners, thanks for saving me so much time and effort this season.

Throughout the entire season, I never saw Burton or JJJ as even potential saviors.  I would have liked to see them play more, but IMO, them not playing was not nearly as important as Dawson not playing and developing.  Not because Dawson is "Magic" or anything, but he is such an improvement over Derrick, or at the very least will be when some more of his potential is realized.  But all of this is contingent me believing that we should have "thrown in the towel" pretty early in the season.

Could it have gotten worse?  My answer is no.  College basketball is totally binary: you are in the tourney or out.  That's it.  Success goes all the way to the national championship of course.  But on the lower end of that distribution is cut off in college basketball--we do not speak of degrees of failure.

[brandx]

Yes, it could have been worse.  We could have been sub-.500.  And while the frosh might have been the answer, it's also quite possible that they weren't.

If JJJ and Dawson start next season and things aren't going well by January, are you going to call for them to be benched and replaced with a couple of frosh?

That's why we have cupcakes on the schedule. If we only played teams in the top 200.......

[mu03eng]

And yes, I realize Dawson wasn't as secure with the ball as Derrick...but...his upside is without question greater..and had he been allowed to play through mistakes/freshman growing pains in nonconference play...think his play would have stabilized and been an upgrade by February.

I'm not going through the consistent play loop with you again because it's just factually wrong, but I think the quoted part of your post in the crux of the question for me.

For Dawson to have been at all effective or useful in conference play, it would have needed to start in non-conference play.  During non-con it's not like we knew Derrick was going to be as hamstrung as he was, look at the ASU game, he was productive on both ends of the floor and we were without the best guard in Mayo.  You will point out, we saw struggles in the non-conference, that's correct but that doesn't mean you abandon your upperclassman PG for an untested freshmen.  Derrick, in theory, could use those minutes to improve for conference play as well.

To your point, I'd make the argument that the big mistake was playing too tough of a non-conference schedule.  As a season ticket holder I hate playing a bunch of cupcakes, but it does give you the freedom to test out different options.  I just don't see how at the time in non-con Buzz could have pulled the trigger on Dawson for Derrick.

I agree Dawson should have had more minutes in conference play for experience and to spell Derrick and keep him fresher.

[dgies9156]

I promise, this is my last intentional look back at 2013-2014. From now on, I look forward.

Five regular-season games ago, it was clear that it was a very long, long-shot for Marquette to make the NCAA. We were going to have to do something we did not do all year -- put a long winning streak together and beat two Top 15 teams. Had we done that, we certainly would be dancing, probably with the pretty girl. Instead, we were slaughtered by Villanova and lost twi double OT games.

Being on the outside looking in is a very good thing in some ways. Our team is young and they now know the taste of disappointment. It's crappy! They'll be hungry come fall and I'll betcha they take Buzz's and the staff admonitions about areas for improvement much more seriously. I'm optimistic that defense problems that cropped up during 2013 and 2014 will be mitigated dramatically next year.

The more important aspect is that the disappointment of the past couple of weeks reminds us how fragile success was. In 1978, we thought we had a God-given right to the NCAA Sweet 16 or even the Final Four. We didn't realize that the Miami of Rubesville game was the beginning of a sea change we've spent the last few decades trying to change. We finally did but it takes a year like this one to remind us that if we're not diligent, we'll be like Loyola of Chicago.

Trust me, while I have no first hand knowledge, I am confident Buzz knows this! I'm also optimistic for next year -- great recruiting class and freshmen becoming sophomores.

[esotericmindguy]

It was obvious to some of us on this board that the upperclassmen didn't have what's necessary to win at a high level. But Buzz "believed" in them. It was a lost season IMO, burton and Mayo are the only two players that progressed this year. Now we'll have to deal growing pains next year. Typically when major teams have down years it's because they're young, Marquette was the exception this year. Disappointing to say the least,

[connie]

I'd say some of that record was fools gold.  Losing in OT at Butler was bad.  Getting the doors blown off by Creighton on road showed how far away we were from being elite in conference.  Not registering one decent win against decent/good teams we played in non-conference were all alarms in my opinion...as were the ugly wins against Southern and New Hampshire in first 4 games of season...

While the danger signs were there at the time our record still had us in position where a bid was not at all out of the question.  Buzz seemed to double down on more experience instead of untested options.  I don't know what else Buzz was seeing and won't fault him for that.  In hindsight, it was the wrong move and we are paying and will pay a price for that.  I hope and pray that at the very least we have learned that IF Derrick starts next year and then when we have trouble that we have other options available, and are not hesitant to use those other options.

I don't want to lay everything on Derrick, as there are many good thoughts as to what went wrong, and they all probably have some truth to them, but unless there is a miraculous amount of improvement over the summer, any questions about what we have and whether that is enough for this team to be where we think they should be have been answered.