So who screwed up on that final play?

[BenCat12]

Ners, since BC 12 quoted you....   Derrick can do wrong.   Terrible shooter.   Confidence completely gone.   Boneheaded play at the end of the Providence game.   Just dumb.  Conversely, 9 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 turnovers in 47 minutes.      Deonte hadn't made a shot since the first half.   And the ones he had taken in the second were forced and ugly.     With that line up, IMO the options are
1. Gardner going to the rack, having received the ball with several seconds left and having had time to make a move.
2.  Jamil going to the rack
3.  Jake with the spot up 3.
4.   Deonte, catching the pass from Davante in the short corner with about 5 seconds left, going to the hole.  
I could flip flop options 3 and 4.  

So Gardner going to the rack from the elbow is a better option than Deonte or Jamil going to the rack?  ok I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one and from now on.  Perhaps a dual ignore is in order?

[tower912]

Why ignore?  We are having a difference of opinion with honest dialogue and no hyperbole.   We disagree about a couple of things.    I would never put a completely cold player in the game at that point.    You would.   I think Davante at the elbow with about 8 seconds to play is a great option.   You prefer others.   We have debated this into the ground, but without any real rancor, at least on my part.    I enjoyed it.   

[BenCat12]

Why ignore?  We are having a difference of opinion with honest dialogue and no hyperbole.   We disagree about a couple of things.    I would never put a completely cold player in the game at that point.    You would.   I think Davante at the elbow with about 8 seconds to play is a great option.   You prefer others.   We have debated this into the ground, but without any real rancor, at least on my part.    I enjoyed it.   

There are no hard feelings, I am just saying, we don't agree on anything it seems.  You defend Buzz at all costs and I like to look at things more honestly.  It is what it is, point is, neither of us is going to change our opinion.  Davante at the elbow is a poor option because he can't beat his man off the dribble.  The only two guys I feel are capable of doing that are Deonte and Jamil.  I don't think Buzz sucks, I just think he makes mistakes, and I don't see anything wrong with pointing them out.  Others think he walks on water and is above criticism.  I can't imagine what this board is going to look like if Derrick is playing 20+ minutes at PG next year, with the same results.

[MUHoopsFan2]

The play in theory is fine, IF it works, the problem is it is too complicated and too easy to defend.  Thus my saying that you can't have Derrick handle the ball if the play breaks down.  It was a mistake by Buzz.  As for your personnel question, Dawson or STjr would have been better, for different reasons.  Dawson as a spot up shooter and STjr as an offensive rebounder.  Under no circumstance should Derrick have been in the game.  Just like he should not have been in the game against Providence on the inbound play for the reason you mention above.  If the situation was reversed and St. Johns had the ball, then absolutely Derrick should have been in the game.  I am not a derrick hater, he has value, but he should never be on the court in late game offensive situations.

It is never a mistake to have the PG have the ball in that situation in college basketball....the other guys have to stop being so scary (especially as Seniors on their day] and go get the damn ball!There was nothing wrong with the play or the players running it.

A Senior should NEVER BE LATE or tardy to their spot in that situation. If you are then what good are you? I was not a mistake by Buzz! The only thing I would give you is who the PG is. I would have had Todd Mayo handle the ball all day long [unless he had fouled out?].  

And please give it a rest blaming everything on thing on Buzz. That is getting tiresome...He was just in the huddle with them and I am sure they practice that play every day. It comes down to plain execution, and heart and fearlessness or adaptation. No one adapts better then Buzz...imo. We are all experts in hindsight...

I will never tell a coach to not put the ball in the hands of his PG on a play like that. You can debate that if the PG can't shoot free throws but they were not going to foul in that situation.

And actually I MIGHT HAVE HAD DERRICK WILSON TAKE THE SHOT...and fool them all! What if he hit it? It would have done wonders for his confidence and the teams in him. But seniors can't run from the ball...

Period.

[MUHoopsFan2]

You are trying to engage in a basketball debate with Tower who is convinced up and down Derrick never makes a mistake on the basketball court, and is the least of this team's problems.  And Tower offering up the notion Burton wouldn't be able to create his own shot if given the rock is further evidence of a very limited basketball IQ.

Play should have gone through Burton..period...inbound it to him...and let him go to work.  Buzz always talks about needing/having a guy "who can go get you one."  Said that about DJO, Todd, Vander etc.  With Mayo out the game, the next best option is Deonte - freshman or not.

Now this I agree with....its that simple. If a senior doesn't want it, then give it to the freshmen and ascending star and have a changing of the guard right there if you want to embarrass your guys who played for you 4 years right in front of their families...

But no way in heck is Buzz going to override his Seniors and give that ball to a freshman as the first option on Senior's Day with the game in the balance, and you better not either if you are a coach.

You just,  . . . don't. Am I contradicting myself. Hardly. Deonte should not have been the first option under any and all circumstances regardless to the lack of confidence you have in Derrick.

Buzz does not have that discriminating luxury and knee jerk reaction we have of these players...he does not think like you or I. So he is not wrong in what he did and no one can judge him in here rightfully on that imo. You have come to far with Derrick to kick him to the curb.

Like I said, I would have had Derrick shoot it..if the first option broke down and to heck with it...    

[BenCat12]

It is never a mistake to have the PG have the ball in that situation in college basketball....the other guys have to stop being so scary (especially as Seniors on their day] and go get the damn ball!There was nothing wrong with the play or the players running it.

A Senior should NEVER BE LATE or tardy to their spot in that situation. If you are then what good are you? I was not a mistake by Buzz! The only thing I would give you is who the PG is. I would have had Todd Mayo handle the ball all day long [unless he had fouled out?].  

And please give it a rest blaming everything on thing on Buzz. That is getting tiresome...He was just in the huddle with them and I am sure they practice that play every day. It comes down to plain execution, and heart and fearlessness or adaptation. No one adapts better then Buzz...imo. We are all experts in hindsight...

I will never tell a coach to not put the ball in the hands of his PG on a play like that. You can debate that if the PG can't shoot free throws but they were not going to foul in that situation.

And actually I MIGHT HAVE HAD DERRICK WILSON TAKE THE SHOT...and fool them all! What if he hit it? It would have done wonders for his confidence and the teams in him. But seniors can't run from the ball...

Period.

It is when Derrick Wilson is your point guard.  Nobody ran from the ball.  Derrick gave Jamil the ball in a terrible spot.  What exactly was Jamil supposed to do?  Shoot over two defenders? 

Put it this way, if the play was run exactly the same way and you replaced Derrick with Dawson it makes more sense because Dawson can hit that shot.  The personnel was poor and there is no arguing that.  Derrick should not have been on the floor.

[BenCat12]

Now this I agree with....its that simple. If a senior doesn't want it, then give it to the freshmen and ascending star and have a changing of the guard right there if you want to embarrass your guys who played for you 4 years right in front of their families...

But no way in heck is Buzz going to override his Seniors and give that ball to a freshman as the first option on Senior's Day with the game in the balance, and you better not either if you are a coach.

You just,  . . . don't. Am I contradicting myself. Hardly. 

So now senior day trumps a much needed win?  OK .....If a freshmen gives you the best chance to win you design the play for him.  Inbounding to Jamil or Deonte would have made more sense because of their ability to create their own shot, that is all I am saying.  One of those two should have received the pass and Derrick shouldn't have been in the game.  Those were the mistakes.

[MUHoopsFan2]

It is when Derrick Wilson is your point guard.  Nobody ran from the ball.  Derrick gave Jamil the ball in a terrible spot.  What exactly was Jamil supposed to do?  Shoot over two defenders?  

Put it this way, if the play was run exactly the same way and you replaced Derrick with Dawson it makes more sense because Dawson can hit that shot.  The personnel was poor and there is no arguing that.  Derrick should not have been on the floor.

That is your opinion...but like I said, no coach is going to do that. No coach is going to put a freshman in that situation no matter what you think of Derrick.

There was nothing wrong with where he gave him the ball,if they had gotten over there in time. They were too late coming to it. You are looking for a reason just to replace Derrick. Did Todd foul out?

Now if you want to debate the merit of whether Derrick should have been in or not I might have had Todd there but it goes to show you how vital PG's are in college basketball. Losing Vander and Duane hurt us all year...That is Vander or Duane's play all day long.

[MUHoopsFan2]

So now senior day trumps a much needed win?  OK .....If a freshmen gives you the best chance to win you design the play for him.  Inbounding to Jamil or Deonte would have made more sense because of their ability to create their own shot, that is all I am saying.  One of those two should have received the pass and Derrick shouldn't have been in the game.  Those were the mistakes.

YES...it does.

Yes sir, it does. Absolutely. You go down with your seniors. I should not have had to even answer this. In CBB yes it does. You sink or swim with them or what have you or they accomplished in 4 years under your tutelage?

And had they come through then your underclassmen see that and understand what it takes to get there and how hard you have to work. You have to win, the right way. Buzz is about that . . .

[BenCat12]

That is your opinion...but like I said, no coach is going to do that. No coach is going to put a freshman in that situation no matter what you think of Derrick.

There was nothing wrong with where he gave him the ball,if they had gotten over there in time. They were too late coming to it. You are looking for a reason just to replace Derrick. Did Todd foul out?

Now if you want to debate the merit of whether Derrick should have been in or not I might have had Todd there but it goes to show you how vital PG's are in college basketball. Losing Vander and Duane hurt us all year...That is Vander or Duane's play all day long.

And most coaches wouldn't start a PG of Derrick's caliber in a major conference.  What's your point?  Buzz has to compound mistakes by leaving Derrick in and not playing the players that are better suited for certain situations?  OK?  Buzz prides himself on situations and substitutions, yet he consistently messes up his personnel in late game offensive situations.

[BenCat12]

YES...it does.

Yes sir, it does. Absolutely. You go down with your seniors. I should have have to even answer this. In CBB yes it does.

Yeah Im sure the Gardners, Wilsons, Thomas, and Otule families would have been pissed if Deonte Burton hit a game winning shot on senior day.
You are joking right? 

[MUHoopsFan2]

Yeah Im sure the Gardners, Wilsons, Thomas, and Otule families would have been pissed if Deonte Burton hit a game winning shot on senior day.
You are joking right?  

No, I am not joking. I see you do not understand. I know if my son [or daughter] was a senior and I had come to enjoy him or her on that day before their graduation in their last home game perhaps, and I wanted to see him go out well sure I would like to know he was an option on that play. Wouldn't any parent? Go ask them...

But then again I am huge sports fan, some parents are not so they would not really care.

I would.

Especially Jamil being from Wisconsin, you darn right I would be upset for him if he was not involved in a big play like that on this day of all days and then a Freshman got the ball? I would want my kid to have that chance because those are life changing plays right there. . .it just broke down.

Some plays are gifts from the player to the University they played for that took them in, and what better way then to hit a shot that wins a game on a special day to perhaps help them get in the tournament. Hell yes I want my kid to take it and would be upset if he was not an option. That's just me...its not right or wrong.

Right or wrong there is an emotional element to this my friend. These are not just fans like you. This is a totally different connect then the way you are looking at it. Wait until you have kids and you will understand. LOL.

[tower912]

There are no hard feelings, I am just saying, we don't agree on anything it seems.  You defend Buzz at all costs and I like to look at things more honestly.  It is what it is, point is, neither of us is going to change our opinion.  Davante at the elbow is a poor option because he can't beat his man off the dribble.  The only two guys I feel are capable of doing that are Deonte and Jamil.  I don't think Buzz sucks, I just think he makes mistakes, and I don't see anything wrong with pointing them out.  Others think he walks on water and is above criticism.  I can't imagine what this board is going to look like if Derrick is playing 20+ minutes at PG next year, with the same results.

I don't think Buzz is infallible.   I advocated early and consistently to make the 5th starter an offensive threat, a la Burton, Mayo, or JJJ (when he was still scoring).    I was very critical of the Oxtule line up, because it was just painful to watch either of those two trying to chase a scoring wing on the perimeter.    I've chafed at the odd substitution patterns, though I accept his explanation that he doesn't know what he is going to get from player X from game to game.     I know that Buzz installs defense first and not offense until December, but I think there has to be a better way.     There are coaches whose system owns his system.    But I can't change him, so I don't spend hundreds of posts trying to.     And I think that next year, being forced to play young guys more than he ever has, will be good for him.   It will force him to loosen the reins a little. 

I just don't think Dawson is a better option this year at point than Derrick.   And so many other disagreements flow from that.   

[jesmu84]

I don't think Buzz is infallible.   I advocated early and consistently to make the 5th starter an offensive threat, a la Burton, Mayo, or JJJ (when he was still scoring).    I was very critical of the Oxtule line up, because it was just painful to watch either of those two trying to chase a scoring wing on the perimeter.    I've chafed at the odd substitution patterns, though I accept his explanation that he doesn't know what he is going to get from player X from game to game.     I know that Buzz installs defense first and not offense until December, but I think there has to be a better way.     There are coaches whose system owns his system.    But I can't change him, so I don't spend hundreds of posts trying to.     And I think that next year, being forced to play young guys more than he ever has, will be good for him.   It will force him to loosen the reins a little. 

I just don't think Dawson is a better option this year at point than Derrick.   And so many other disagreements flow from that.   

Any mattyv's basic and advanced stats prove that to be a statistical truth as well

[willie warrior]

It looked to me like Bush screwed up that last play, so now we will need 5 plus years of somebody to straighten things out.

[BenCat12]

I don't think Buzz is infallible.   I advocated early and consistently to make the 5th starter an offensive threat, a la Burton, Mayo, or JJJ (when he was still scoring).    I was very critical of the Oxtule line up, because it was just painful to watch either of those two trying to chase a scoring wing on the perimeter.    I've chafed at the odd substitution patterns, though I accept his explanation that he doesn't know what he is going to get from player X from game to game.     I know that Buzz installs defense first and not offense until December, but I think there has to be a better way.     There are coaches whose system owns his system.    But I can't change him, so I don't spend hundreds of posts trying to.     And I think that next year, being forced to play young guys more than he ever has, will be good for him.   It will force him to loosen the reins a little. 

I just don't think Dawson is a better option this year at point than Derrick.   And so many other disagreements flow from that.   

I don't think either is the answer.  I was pushing for Mayo to be given the job once I heard Duane was injured.  He is more dynamic and that is what this team needed out of that position.  I could live with 3 to 4 turnovers a game if it meant a more dynamic offense.  I also think Mayo is a very good on-ball defender, not so much off the ball.  I think Mayo guarding the other teams point and shadowing him up the court would have done wonders for Todd's focus and involvement in the game.  Buzz chose to go in another direction, that is his prerogative.  I am allowed to disagree with it.

[BenCat12]

No, I am not joking. I see you do not understand. I know if my son [or daughter] was a senior and I had come to enjoy him or her on that day before their graduation in their last home game perhaps, and I wanted to see him go out well sure I would like to know he was an option on that play. Wouldn't any parent? Go ask them...You are delusional.  So in other words, despite Buzz's love affair with Chris and his constant praising of all things Otule, you would be offended today if you were his mother because he was not on the court for the last play?

But then again I am huge sports fan, some parents are not so they would not really care.

I would.

Especially Jamil being from Wisconsin, you darn right I would be upset for him if he was not involved in a big play like that on this day of all days and then a Freshman got the ball? I would want my kid to have that chance because those are life changing plays right there. . .it just broke down.

Some plays are gifts from the player to the University they played for that took them in, and what better way then to hit a shot that wins a game on a special day to perhaps help them get in the tournament. Hell yes I want my kid to take it and would be upset if he was not an option. That's just me...its not right or wrongNo, LOL, it is wrong for any mother to have that attitude.

Right or wrong there is an emotional element to this my friend. These are not just fans like you. This is a totally different connect then the way you are looking at it. Wait until you have kids and you will understand. LOL. Save the lecture.  I have kids and have coached them in many sports over the years, some have been the star some have been the role player.  The key is to understand your child's limitations and abilities.  Everyone is important to a team in one way or another.  Some help in practice, some take game winning shots, but seniority and personal attachment should never impact a coaches decision in who takes that shot.  Based on your attitude I really hope you do not have kids and god forbid they play sports.  If so, I am sure ill see you on nightline or 20/20 someday as the crazy lady swinging her purse at the coach on the field.

[tower912]

Todd starting at the point?    I can see that.   I don't necessarily agree, as he would have to change his game, but I don't dismiss it out of hand, either.   It still does nothing to change that final play as he had fouled out, so Derrick would have been in the game by default, like he was last year and the year before when Junior was out of the game.

[BenCat12]

Todd starting at the point?    I can see that.   I don't necessarily agree, as he would have to change his game, but I don't dismiss it out of hand, either.   It still does nothing to change that final play as he had fouled out, so Derrick would have been in the game by default, like he was last year and the year before when Junior was out of the game.

It doesn't change the final play you are right, that was meant to address the point you made about arguments involving Wilson vs. Dawson.  I am on neither side of that argument, as they both have major downfalls that's why I was pushing for Todd, more versatility.
The other part is where we disagree and that isn't going to change.  I believe there is no reason for Derrick to be on the court in late game offensive situations and you disagree.  Not much more to be said.   

[Earl Tatum]

You got to have talent. Years ago after Tan Tommy left, Sean Miller was available, boy did I catch "HELL"
Buzz had one lucky year. We needed a name coach, and got middle of the pack person. Buzz over-
coaches.

[NersEllenson]

You got to have talent. Years ago after Tan Tommy left, Sean Miller was available, boy did I catch "HELL"
Buzz had one lucky year. We needed a name coach, and got middle of the pack person. Buzz over-
coaches.

I wouldn't call Buzz middle of the pack person in any way, shape or form.  He's a great story, great human being...and like all of us...makes mistakes...this season he made some mistakes...but he deserves a pass or two after all he's accomplished thus far at MU.  He's getting talent to MU which is somewhat challenging, and we'll be good again - hopefully next year - but if not next, definitely the one after next.

[brandx]

That is your opinion...but like I said, no coach is going to do that. No coach is going to put a freshman in that situation no matter what you think of Derrick.

Some coaches will. Different situation, but with Shaq and a team full of veterans, Phil called a play for Kobe with the season on the line. 19 years old. A rookie. He missed and the season was over - but the point is, a great coach will make that kind of decision. DW should not be on the floor for an offensive possession with the game on the line. As we saw yesterday, he has nothing to offer offensively on an end-of-game play.

[CoachRaymondsClass]

Here is an idea, if you get so worked up about reading a message board that you need to drink, you probably have more serious problems. 

As for the actual basketball part of your post, yes you assume your play is not going to work and you option if the drawn up play doesn't work.  If you can take your Buzz glasses off for two seconds you'll see that putting the ball in Derrick's hands and trying to get an entry pass into the low block to Davante are not feasible options in that situation.  I am not saying my play would work, but it is more realistic.  In that situation the ball almost always gets inbounded to the player that the coach wants to take the final shot.  It was a poorly designed play in a long list of poor sets we've seen this year.  It wasn't as bad as the Providence inbound but close.

I don't think you understand what Buzz's play was about - it was not about getting the ball to Davante in the low post - you are wrong. Go watch it again. Davante set a high screen coming out of a huh post at the elbow.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There are no hard feelings, I am just saying, we don't agree on anything it seems.  You defend Buzz at all costs and I like to look at things more honestly.

[mu03eng]

It is when Derrick Wilson is your point guard.  Nobody ran from the ball.  Derrick gave Jamil the ball in a terrible spot.  What exactly was Jamil supposed to do?  Shoot over two defenders? 

Put it this way, if the play was run exactly the same way and you replaced Derrick with Dawson it makes more sense because Dawson can hit that shot.  The personnel was poor and there is no arguing that.  Derrick should not have been on the floor.

I'll jump in a little on this....the play broke down and Wilson had to improvise correct?  That was not Wilson's fault correct?  They then had to scramble around and out of it we got a clean 10foot look at the basket for a win, right?  Wilson has a lot of deficiencies and I don't want him taking that last look either.  However, if your whole point is that there is going to be a scramble and the original play is going to blow up I'd rather have Derrick in there who can improvise better and less likely to panic than a very cold John Dawson.  Neither is an ideal scenario but you leave Wilson in their because he's got more experience and a better facilitator.