So who screwed up on that final play?

[WarriorGreg1965]

I know everyone was saying Burton looked confused, but watching the replay numerous times, I'm not sure Gardner wasn't supposed to be the one going to the top.

I could understand Burton being nervous and unsure, but if it was Gardner that had the brain cramp, that would be inexcusable for a senior.

[tower912]

http://marquette.scout.com/2/1382155.html

Buzz explains it....if you can decipher Dodds writing.    If I decipher it correctly, Davante was supposed to get the ball in the high post and then pass to whoever was open...Jake, Jamil, or Todd.     So, when Davante and Deonte both went to the low block....    I had assumed that Davante was supposed to get it on the low block with Burton at the elbow.    Bottom line is that when they both were in the same spot, it disrupted the play.

[chapman]

The one who called timeout and tried to draw up a play, despite a near zero success rate when he does so.

[tower912]

Also explained.  At the end of the first overtime, with Todd in the game, Buzz let them play through it, with the intent of Todd making the play.   With Todd fouled out and no one on the floor who could really get their own shot, he drew up a play.   One for a man defense, one for a zone.    I realize that you are down on buzz right now, Chapman, but tell me how you argue against that logic.   

[4everwarriors]

Well, we'll feel better knowin' the play wasn't drawn up for Derrick, aina?

[MUfan12]

With Todd fouled out and no one on the floor who could really get their own shot, he drew up a play.   One for a man defense, one for a zone.    I realize that you are down on buzz right now, Chapman, but tell me how you argue against that logic.  

Because St. John's used a TO after the free throw. He couldn't draw something up then? Keeping that last timeout would have been helpful when everything broke down.

[BenCat12]

Who screwed up on the final play?

Buzz.  As a coach you need to be under the assumption that the opposition plays to a scouting report as well.  You have to assume that your play isn't going to work and have personnel in the game that can make an adjustment if the play breaks down.  In that situation it would have made more sense to inbound the ball to Burton or Jamil, set 2 high staggered screens and let the dribble guy decide which screen to use to get to the rim.  After the screen, all players crash the paint for a tip, rebound.  You force St. John's to not foul (based on the officiating, not likely), or you get the ball on the rim and see what happens.  There is no excuse (much like the Providence inbound), for Derrick to be in the game in that situation.  He is consistently put into positions that he cannot succeed.

[connie]

Who screwed up on the final play?

Buzz.  As a coach you need to be under the assumption that the opposition plays to a scouting report as well.  You have to assume that your play isn't going to work and have personnel in the game that can make an adjustment if the play breaks down.  In that situation it would have made more sense to inbound the ball to Burton or Jamil, set 2 high staggered screens and let the dribble guy decide which screen to use to get to the rim.  After the screen, all players crash the paint for a tip, rebound.  You force St. John's to not foul (based on the officiating, not likely), or you get the ball on the rim and see what happens.  There is no excuse (much like the Providence inbound), for Derrick to be in the game in that situation.  He is consistently put into positions that he cannot succeed.

I am so tired of this board after losses.  Seriously, there are already 6 threads about who should play, what is the point of adding another one to ask for a coach to insert a freshman that had two turnovers in a minute into the last 8 seconds of a double overtime game?  And are you seriously saying that our coach should assume that the plays he draws up won't work, but that yours magically would?  I guess that does encompass the thought process of many that post here.

I never should have given up alcohol for Lent.

[BenCat12]

I am so tired of this board after losses.  Seriously, there are already 6 threads about who should play, what is the point of adding another one to ask for a coach to insert a freshman that had two turnovers in a minute into the last 8 seconds of a double overtime game?  And are you seriously saying that our coach should assume that the plays he draws up won't work, but that yours magically would?  I guess that does encompass the thought process of many that post here.

I never should have given up alcohol for Lent.

Here is an idea, if you get so worked up about reading a message board that you need to drink, you probably have more serious problems. 

As for the actual basketball part of your post, yes you assume your play is not going to work and you option if the drawn up play doesn't work.  If you can take your Buzz glasses off for two seconds you'll see that putting the ball in Derrick's hands and trying to get an entry pass into the low block to Davante are not feasible options in that situation.  I am not saying my play would work, but it is more realistic.  In that situation the ball almost always gets inbounded to the player that the coach wants to take the final shot.  It was a poorly designed play in a long list of poor sets we've seen this year.  It wasn't as bad as the Providence inbound but close.

[forgetful]

Who screwed up on the final play?

Buzz.  As a coach you need to be under the assumption that the opposition plays to a scouting report as well.  You have to assume that your play isn't going to work and have personnel in the game that can make an adjustment if the play breaks down.  In that situation it would have made more sense to inbound the ball to Burton or Jamil, set 2 high staggered screens and let the dribble guy decide which screen to use to get to the rim.  After the screen, all players crash the paint for a tip, rebound.  You force St. John's to not foul (based on the officiating, not likely), or you get the ball on the rim and see what happens.  There is no excuse (much like the Providence inbound), for Derrick to be in the game in that situation.  He is consistently put into positions that he cannot succeed.

Well lets look at the facts.  Buzz had said he drew up two plays one for a zone one for man.  So he game planned right there for two things that didn't work.

He then had the play designed to have Burton along the block, Gardner at the high post and Jake in the corner...three options in case the primary option (Gardner at high post) didn't work.  If none of that worked there was the last option swinging over to Jamil...that option was used.

Why?  Because there was confusion between a Freshman and a Senior as to the defense St. John's was using...that is something you can't game plan for...unless you have a Vander or Mayo where they just take over...Mayo fouled out.

Your option to inbound to Burton or Jamil, would not have worked at all in this scenario as they ran a zone...the staggered screens aren't going to help you there.  Instead now you have the ball in the hands of two players who are not experienced with how to attack a zone from the top.

[tower912]

So, your argument is that the ball should have been inbounded to Davante and he should have brought it up?    Intriguing.    Jamil?   He showed he didn't want it.    Jake?    Who can't create a shot?    Deonte, for the first time all year, should have received the ball and dribbled it up?      Buzz gave it his PG, who was supposed to give it to Davante,.......   but wait, Deonte and Davante are in the exact same spot and the clock is ticking......

[BenCat12]

So, your argument is that the ball should have been inbounded to Davante and he should have brought it up?    Intriguing.    Jamil?   He showed he didn't want it.    Jake?    Who can't create a shot?    Deonte, for the first time all year, should have received the ball and dribbled it up?      Buzz gave it his PG, who was supposed to give it to Davante,.......   but wait, Deonte and Davante are in the exact same spot and the clock is ticking......

First of all, John Wooden, the ball was inbounded at half court.  So nobody would have had to bring it up the court (again no need for Derrick to be in the game).  Secondly, you inbound the ball to a guy who can create his own shot which would be Deonte or Jamil.  You run a lot of motion (jake running the baseline for example) to start the play to see if they are in zone or man.  Then you either get the ball to Deonte or Jamil (which ever one did not receive the inbound pass) at the free throw line if it is a zone or you let Deonte or Jamil use a screen to get to the hoop if it is man.  You can claim Buzz is a genius all you want, but both scenarios I laid out are better sets than what he tried to run with the personnel he had in the game. 

[chapman]

Also explained.  At the end of the first overtime, with Todd in the game, Buzz let them play through it, with the intent of Todd making the play.   With Todd fouled out and no one on the floor who could really get their own shot, he drew up a play.   One for a man defense, one for a zone.    I realize that you are down on buzz right now, Chapman, but tell me how you argue against that logic.  

It's not a this year thing, it's been a weakness throughout Buzz's tenure.  His "special teams" as he calls them, inbounds, out of timeout, end end of clock situations, have always been poor despite supposedly being a focus in practices.  With very limited exception, all of our successes in these situations have been the players making something of the play after whatever Buzz drew up broke down.  Yesterday would have been the same if Derrick made the shot.  The logic is fine if the coach's track record of drawing up plays that the players can grasp and execute in these situations is anything but abysmal.  As soon as the timeout was called the result was inevitably going to be a busted play.

[connie]

First of all, John Wooden, the ball was inbounded at half court.  So nobody would have had to bring it up the court (again no need for Derrick to be in the game).  Secondly, you inbound the ball to a guy who can create his own shot which would be Deonte or Jamil.  You run a lot of motion (jake running the baseline for example) to start the play to see if they are in zone or man.  Then you either get the ball to Deonte or Jamil (which ever one did not receive the inbound pass) at the free throw line if it is a zone or you let Deonte or Jamil use a screen to get to the hoop if it is man.  You can claim Buzz is a genius all you want, but both scenarios I laid out are better sets than what he tried to run with the personnel he had in the game. 

Obviously we should defer to you from now on.  Admittedly your basketball knowledge exceeds that of the coach that has taken us to 5 straight NCAA's, including 2 Sweet 16's and an Elite Eight.  As others have pointed out, there were contingencies drawn up.  They just weren't executed.  I know, that's Buzz's fault too.  Next time do us all a favor and send in your play.  Then we wouldn't have to have this discussion, and I wouldn't have to take an AA assessment and could go back to slurping with my "Buzz glasses" on while you and Willie do whatever it is you do with each other between diagramming plays in your parent's basements.

[wojosdojo]

The bottom line is our starting point guard missed a wide open 8 footer for the win.



What I also don't understand is why the timeout was called. No timeout was called when when Todd tied the game against Providence and no timeout was called when Todd tied the game yesterday. Why let the defense set up?!

[MUCam]

Here is an idea, if you get so worked up about reading a message board that you need to drink, you probably have more serious problems. 

Are you implying there is something wrong with needing a drink after reading posts on this board? That I shouldn't be using this board as an excuse for drinking a glass of scotch?

Shoot.

I am going to have to come up with another legitimate basis (excuse) for reaching for the old bottle.

[tower912]

First of all, John Wooden, the ball was inbounded at half court.  So nobody would have had to bring it up the court (again no need for Derrick to be in the game).  Secondly, you inbound the ball to a guy who can create his own shot which would be Deonte or Jamil.  You run a lot of motion (jake running the baseline for example) to start the play to see if they are in zone or man.  Then you either get the ball to Deonte or Jamil (which ever one did not receive the inbound pass) at the free throw line if it is a zone or you let Deonte or Jamil use a screen to get to the hoop if it is man.  You can claim Buzz is a genius all you want, but both scenarios I laid out are better sets than what he tried to run with the personnel he had in the game.  

How many times this year have Jamil or Deonte successfully got their own shot from beyond the top of the key off of motion?   I am comfortable guessing it is around the same number of times that Derrick has successfully made a 3.    The play as drawn up would have gotten the ball to Davante at the foul line with several seconds left and the option to either create a shot for himself or hit the guy in the space vacated by the collapsing defenders.   I like the play as drawn up.    When Davante and Deonte went to the same spot, all bets were off.  

[BenCat12]

Obviously we should defer to you from now on.  Admittedly your basketball knowledge exceeds that of the coach that has taken us to 5 straight NCAA's, including 2 Sweet 16's and an Elite Eight.  As others have pointed out, there were contingencies drawn up.  They just weren't executed.  I know, that's Buzz's fault too.  Next time do us all a favor and send in your play.  Then we wouldn't have to have this discussion, and I wouldn't have to take an AA assessment and could go back to slurping with my "Buzz glasses" on while you and Willie do whatever it is you do with each other between diagramming plays in your parent's basements.

Don't get your keyboard wet with your tears.....
Doubt the warranty covers that.  Go have a drink

[BenCat12]

How many times this year have Jamil or Deonte successfully got their own shot from beyond the top of the key off of motion.   I am comfortable guessing it is around the same number of times that Derrick has successfully made a 3.    The play as drawn up would have gotten the ball to Davante at the foul line with several seconds left and the option to either create a shot for himself or hit the guy in the space vacated by the collapsing defenders.   I like the play as drawn up.    When Davante and Deonte went to the same spot, all bets were off.  

I don't know how to put this more clearly, and quite frankly I can't believe people don't get this.....no matter what the play design is, you cannot have a guy in the game, who cannot create his own shot, dribble 10 of the final 13 seconds off the clock.  You can't rely on the execution of a complicated drawn up play.  You need to rely on the guys who can create their own shot.  Buzz often does this when he uses Mayo on final plays, but Mayo fouled out and he abandoned the strategy.  Deonte is excellent at creating his own shot (sometimes to a fault), I would rather have him take it to the hoop. 

[NersEllenson]

I don't know how to put this more clearly, and quite frankly I can't believe people don't get this.....no matter what the play design is, you cannot have a guy in the game, who cannot create his own shot, dribble 10 of the final 13 seconds off the clock.  You can't rely on the execution of a complicated drawn up play.  You need to rely on the guys who can create their own shot.  Buzz often does this when he uses Mayo on final plays, but Mayo fouled out and he abandoned the strategy.  Deonte is excellent at creating his own shot (sometimes to a fault), I would rather have him take it to the hoop. 

You are trying to engage in a basketball debate with Tower who is convinced up and down Derrick never makes a mistake on the basketball court, and is the least of this team's problems.  And Tower offering up the notion Burton wouldn't be able to create his own shot if given the rock is further evidence of a very limited basketball IQ.

Play should have gone through Burton..period...inbound it to him...and let him go to work.  Buzz always talks about needing/having a guy "who can go get you one."  Said that about DJO, Todd, Vander etc.  With Mayo out the game, the next best option is Deonte - freshman or not.

[BenCat12]

You are trying to engage in a basketball debate with Tower who is convinced up and down Derrick never makes a mistake on the basketball court, and is the least of this team's problems.  And Tower offering up the notion Burton wouldn't be able to create his own shot if given the rock is further evidence of a very limited basketball IQ.

Play should have gone through Burton..period...inbound it to him...and let him go to work.  Buzz always talks about needing/having a guy "who can go get you one."  Said that about DJO, Todd, Vander etc.  With Mayo out the game, the next best option is Deonte - freshman or not.

Obviously we should defer to you from now on.  Admittedly your basketball knowledge exceeds that of the coach that has taken us to 5 straight NCAA's, including 2 Sweet 16's and an Elite Eight.  As others have pointed out, there were contingencies drawn up.  They just weren't executed.  I know, that's Buzz's fault too.  Next time do us all a favor and send in your play.  Then we wouldn't have to have this discussion, and I wouldn't have to take an AA assessment and could go back to slurping with my "Buzz glasses" on while you and Willie do whatever it is you do with each other between diagramming plays in your parent's basements.

[tower912]

I don't know how to put this more clearly, and quite frankly I can't believe people don't get this.....no matter what the play design is, you cannot have a guy in the game, who cannot create his own shot, dribble 10 of the final 13 seconds off the clock.  You can't rely on the execution of a complicated drawn up play.  You need to rely on the guys who can create their own shot.  Buzz often does this when he uses Mayo on final plays, but Mayo fouled out and he abandoned the strategy.  Deonte is excellent at creating his own shot (sometimes to a fault), I would rather have him take it to the hoop.  

I agree to an extent.    The last thing I wanted in that sequence was for Derrick to shoot or handle the ball for 10 of the 13 seconds.    But look at it part by part.   Derrick dribbled up.   Gardner was supposed to be at the high block, where he was supposed to receive the entry pass with several seconds left.   Derrick was then supposed to get the hell out of the way, because no one wanted the ball to come back to him.   Ox wasn't there.   He and Deonte were in the same spot, at the low block.   By the time Ox started to go to the high post, Derrick had already given up on him and was taking the ball across the top to Jamil.    Jamil got the ball with just under 4 seconds left.   He took a dribble to the lane and met defensive resistance.    At that point, he could have (A) pulled up and shot, (B) split the double team and taken the shot, (C) hit Ox at the foul line, where he was now open and waiting, (D) the horrible choice that he made.  
It clearly didn't go the way Buzz drew it up.    Your argument is that Derrick never should have touched the ball.   I understand but disagree.   I like the other options less.   And once Ox wasn't where he was supposed to be, Derrick's options were limited.    You also seem to imply that he shouldn't be on the floor at all.   Under the circumstance, the options were Otule, Dawson (who hadn't played in over an hour) or Juan/STjr/JJJ, none of whom had removed their sweats.    None of those are improvements.    

[forgetful]

I agree to an extent.    The last thing I wanted in that sequence was for Derrick to shoot or handle the ball for 10 of the 13 seconds.    But look at it part by part.   Derrick dribbled up.   Gardner was supposed to be at the high block, where he was supposed to receive the entry pass with several seconds left.   Derrick was then supposed to get the hell out of the way, because no one wanted the ball to come back to him.   Ox wasn't there.   He and Deonte were in the same spot, at the low block.   By the time Ox started to go to the high post, Derrick had already given up on him and was taking the ball across the top to Jamil.    Jamil got the ball with just under 4 seconds left.   He took a dribble to the lane and met defensive resistance.    At that point, he could have (A) pulled up and shot, (B) split the double team and taken the shot, (C) hit Ox at the foul line, where he was now open and waiting, (D) the horrible choice that he made.  
It clearly didn't go the way Buzz drew it up.    Your argument is that Derrick never should have touched the ball.   I understand but disagree.   I like the other options less.   And once Ox wasn't where he was supposed to be, Derrick's options were limited.    You also seem to imply that he shouldn't be on the floor at all.   Under the circumstance, the options were Otule, Dawson (who hadn't played in over an hour) or Juan/STjr/JJJ, none of whom had removed their sweats.    None of those are improvements.    

You missed one option that would have been best.  St. John's forgot about Burton with the clock winding down, he was open for a lob pass as soon as Jamil got the ball.  Wouldn't an alley-oop from Jamil to Burton to win the game been a pretty sight.

[tower912]

Ners, since BC 12 quoted you....   Derrick can do wrong.   Terrible shooter.   Confidence completely gone.   Boneheaded play at the end of the Providence game.   Just dumb.  Conversely, 9 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 turnovers in 47 minutes.      Deonte hadn't made a shot since the first half.   And the ones he had taken in the second were forced and ugly.     With that line up, IMO the options are
1. Gardner going to the rack, having received the ball with several seconds left and having had time to make a move.
2.  Jamil going to the rack
3.  Jake with the spot up 3.
4.   Deonte, catching the pass from Davante in the short corner with about 5 seconds left, going to the hole.  
I could flip flop options 3 and 4.  

[BenCat12]

I agree to an extent.    The last thing I wanted in that sequence was for Derrick to shoot or handle the ball for 10 of the 13 seconds.    But look at it part by part.   Derrick dribbled up.   Gardner was supposed to be at the high block, where he was supposed to receive the entry pass with several seconds left.   Derrick was then supposed to get the hell out of the way, because no one wanted the ball to come back to him.   Ox wasn't there.   He and Deonte were in the same spot, at the low block.   By the time Ox started to go to the high post, Derrick had already given up on him and was taking the ball across the top to Jamil.    Jamil got the ball with just under 4 seconds left.   He took a dribble to the lane and met defensive resistance.    At that point, he could have (A) pulled up and shot, (B) split the double team and taken the shot, (C) hit Ox at the foul line, where he was now open and waiting, (D) the horrible choice that he made.  
It clearly didn't go the way Buzz drew it up.    Your argument is that Derrick never should have touched the ball.   I understand but disagree.   I like the other options less.   And once Ox wasn't where he was supposed to be, Derrick's options were limited.    You also seem to imply that he shouldn't be on the floor at all.   Under the circumstance, the options were Otule, Dawson (who hadn't played in over an hour) or Juan/STjr/JJJ, none of whom had removed their sweats.    None of those are improvements.    

The play in theory is fine, IF it works, the problem is it is too complicated and too easy to defend.  Thus my saying that you can't have Derrick handle the ball if the play breaks down.  It was a mistake by Buzz.  As for your personnel question, Dawson or STjr would have been better, for different reasons.  Dawson as a spot up shooter and STjr as an offensive rebounder.  Under no circumstance should Derrick have been in the game.  Just like he should not have been in the game against Providence on the inbound play for the reason you mention above.  If the situation was reversed and St. Johns had the ball, then absolutely Derrick should have been in the game.  I am not a derrick hater, he has value, but he should never be on the court in late game offensive situations.