2014 MLB Thread & Pissing Match

[NavinRJohnson]

So the fire Ron Roenicke drum beat seems to be getting a little louder. I think that would just be throwing the baby out with the bath water, but it got me wondering, what can a manager really do? Firing the manager is page 1 of the shake things up play book, but I just don't see that happening, nor should it, so what could RR (or any manager in the same position) actually do to have any sort of meaningful impact in the team?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hope not for RR's sake....really good man.  But, hey, if they do, we'll take him back in a heartbeat.

[Benny B]

Funny thing how RR goes from leading COY candidate to hot seat in a mere 2 weeks.

[GGGG]

So the fire Ron Roenicke drum beat seems to be getting a little louder. I think that would just be throwing the baby out with the bath water, but it got me wondering, what can a manager really do? Firing the manager is page 1 of the shake things up play book, but I just don't see that happening, nor should it, so what could RR (or any manager in the same position) actually do to have any sort of meaningful impact in the team?

If anyone is to blame it is Melvin...not RR.   The Brewers organization from the top down doesn't have the depth of talent that it needs.  Baseball Prospectus ranks it 29th out of 30.  That's why they have to plug in not quite good enough free agents in the bullpen, and at first base.

Look at the Cardinals.  Every year they seem to bring up new talent, and it is talent that plays the way they want.

I like RR.  The players like him.  He is one of the reasons why Braun signed his extension (which seemed like a bargain at the time), and players like Ramirez say he is the best manager he has ever played for.  I just think he has been given a not-quite-complete team and can't make it work any longer.

[chapman]

Not sure how to fix the mess.  I don't doubt Roenicke being fied may happen, if anything because writing off the last six weeks of the season and going into next year status quo won't do and manager is the too-easy change.  RR's made some dumb decisions, but not anything that comes close to causing a team to lose 15 out of 18 games and not be competitive in most.

Funny thing how RR goes from leading COY candidate to hot seat in a mere 2 weeks.

Ned Yost likes this.

If anyone is to blame it is Melvin...not RR.   The Brewers organization from the top down doesn't have the depth of talent that it needs.  Baseball Prospectus ranks it 29th out of 30.  That's why they have to plug in not quite good enough free agents in the bullpen, and at first base.

We made the jump out of the cellar in farm rankings?  That's practically noteworthy after such a long run at the bottom. 

[GGGG]

We made the jump out of the cellar in farm rankings?  That's practically noteworthy after such a long run at the bottom. 

Baseball Prospectus had them 27th last year.

[MU B2002]

Another W for Kershaw.  How many wins does he need for MVP consideration?

[4everwarriors]

Another W for Kershaw.  How many wins does he need for MVP consideration?

I heard Lucroy had that all wrapped up, hey?

[buckchuckler]

Another W for Kershaw.  How many wins does he need for MVP consideration?

I think he is already in consideration.  Right now I think it goes to Stanton, but Kershaw is lurking. 

[GGGG]

I have a bridge that I'll sell you if you think Ryan Braun slumps because of a thumb injury and that it's just a coincidence that he's played through injuries prior to being caught using PEDs and still raked, yet now a thumb injury is going to take him from a .330, 35-40 homer guy down to .275, 22 homer guy.  But hey, it's not the PEDs, it's the thumb.

More lying from the Brewers huh wades???

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/274538181.html

[wadesworld]

More lying from the Brewers huh wades???

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/274538181.html

When he's a career .280 hitter averaging 20 homers a game for the rest of his career I hope you continue to think his hand is the reason for it and it had nothing to do with the fact that he was using PEDs.  That will be hilarious.

If his hand is so bad then he should've had the surgery that could have helped him while he was suspended for the final 60 games of last season plus the entire off season.  If it's not bad enough to do that surgery, then quit using it as an excuse every time you go into a slump.

If it's that bad let's see when he's back in the lineup.  Personally, if it's bad enough that he dipped from a .310 career hitter that averaged over 30 homers per game to now a .273 hitter struggling to reach 20 homers, then why is he playing at all?  That must be a pretty serious injury.  And if it is now suddenly worse and has somehow extended beyond just the thumb and into the hand, then he should be shelved for the year.  Instead, he will be back tomorrow, because in reality he just isn't performing so suddenly he needs just one day off to reset.  That seems to have worked throughout the second half of the season for him really well, so might as well keep doing it.  Wait...

[GGGG]

When he's a career .280 hitter averaging 20 homers a game for the rest of his career I hope you continue to think his hand is the reason for it and it had nothing to do with the fact that he was using PEDs.  That will be hilarious.

Don't change the argument.  The debate has always been about this year.  Not his career.

If his hand is so bad then he should've had the surgery that could have helped him while he was suspended for the final 60 games of last season plus the entire off season.  If it's not bad enough to do that surgery, then quit using it as an excuse every time you go into a slump.

There is a difference between "a reason" and "an excuse."

If it's that bad let's see when he's back in the lineup.  Personally, if it's bad enough that he dipped from a .310 career hitter that averaged over 30 homers per game to now a .273 hitter struggling to reach 20 homers, then why is he playing at all?  That must be a pretty serious injury.  And if it is now suddenly worse and has somehow extended beyond just the thumb and into the hand, then he should be shelved for the year.  Instead, he will be back tomorrow, because in reality he just isn't performing so suddenly he needs just one day off to reset.  That seems to have worked throughout the second half of the season for him really well, so might as well keep doing it.  Wait...

So earlier you said it was about the PEDs and not an injury.

But now you seem to admit that the injury was the reason, but you are banging on him for trying to play through it.  Whatever.

[wadesworld]

But yeah, why would I ever doubt Ryan Braun? He would never lie. Ever.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yKCVrfzaU

This is the first time I've listened to this since he was officially suspended. This is truly unbelievable. How anybody could possibly stand up there and say that to anybody, let alone go on national TV and say those things, is well beyond me.

But hey, if you want to believe Ryan Braun, by all means don't let me talk you out of it.

[wadesworld]

Don't change the argument.  The debate has always been about this year.  Not his career.


There is a difference between "a reason" and "an excuse."


So earlier you said it was about the PEDs and not an injury.

But now you seem to admit that the injury was the reason, but you are banging on him for trying to play through it.  Whatever.

Agreed, the debate is about this year. So next year if he goes back to being a .320 hitter and hitting 35 homers I will gladly admit to being wrong and agree that this injury was a big issue. But, after an offseason to get healthy, when he continues to be a .280 hitter with 20 homers that doesn't go to show he's just not as good without the use of PEDs? He just somehow, at 29 years of age (again, this is baseball, not the playing life of an NFL running back), declined that much and it has nothing to do with being caught using PEDs and having to be off of them for the first time since college? Wow. That is some big time coincidence. But let me guess, the hand injury will still be the problem next year.

It is PEDs. I'm saying he is completely milking everything he can out of this injury. The fact is he's not performing because he can't perform at the level he did while on PEDs. I'm saying if this injury were truly that bad why is he playing? That's the question. And the answer is it's not that bad. If there is an injury that drops your BA 30 points and takes 15 homers from your performance then you should get it fixed, not take 1 day every time you slump. But there is no fix. Other than PEDs.

[GGGG]

But yeah, why would I ever doubt Ryan Braun? He would never lie. Ever.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y4yKCVrfzaU

This is the first time I've listened to this since he was officially suspended. This is truly unbelievable. How anybody could possibly stand up there and say that to anybody, let alone go on national TV and say those things, is well beyond me.

But hey, if you want to believe Ryan Braun, by all means don't let me talk you out of it.

I'm not believing Braun...I'm believing the Brewers.

[NavinRJohnson]

If his hand is so bad then he should've had the surgery that could have helped him while he was suspended for the final 60 games of last season plus the entire off season.  If it's not bad enough to do that surgery, then quit using it as an excuse every time you go into a slump.

In discussing the situation earlier in the season, Braun said different experts had been consulted and possible surgical options discussed but none provided enough of a guarantee that the issue would be corrected. So, he has tried to play through it while using various forms of padding on the bat and in his batting glove.

If it's that bad let's see when he's back in the lineup.  Personally, if it's bad enough that he dipped from a .310 career hitter that averaged over 30 homers per game to now a .273 hitter struggling to reach 20 homers, then why is he playing at all?  That must be a pretty serious injury.  And if it is now suddenly worse and has somehow extended beyond just the thumb and into the hand, then he should be shelved for the year.  Instead, he will be back tomorrow, because in reality he just isn't performing so suddenly he needs just one day off to reset.  That seems to have worked throughout the second half of the season for him really well, so might as well keep doing it.  Wait...

What medical school did you attend, and how long ago was it you examined Braun? You spew this crap like its fact, but you have absolutely no friggin clue what you're talking about. Why play at all? Well, maybe because that's what the a brewers pay him to do. Maybe the trainers and doctors say he can play with it if he can deal with the pain. Maybe because .280 is exponentially better than sticking Logan Schaefer out there. There are plenty of reasons not to shut it down completely. But, as usual, you throw these medical opinions out there, with no actual knowledge of the situation to support your theory that the entire Brewer organization is in on this elaborate ruse, to support your argument than Braun simply cannot hit if he doesn't use PEDs.

[wadesworld]

In discussing the situation earlier in the season, Braun said different experts had been consulted and possible surgical options discussed but none provided enough of a guarantee that the issue would be corrected. So, he has tried to play through it while using various forms of padding on the bat and in his batting glove.


What medical school did you attend, and how long ago was it you examined Braun? You spew this crap like its fact, but you have absolutely no friggin clue what you're talking about. Why play at all? Well, maybe because that's what the a brewers pay him to do. Maybe the trainers and doctors say he can play with it if he can deal with the pain. Maybe because .280 is exponentially better than sticking Logan Schaefer out there. There are plenty of reasons not to shut it down completely. But, as usual, you throw these medical opinions out there, with no actual knowledge of the situation to support your theory that the entire Brewer organization is in on this elaborate ruse, to support your argument than Braun simply cannot hit if he doesn't use PEDs.

Let me know when he starts to hit without PEDs

[NavinRJohnson]

Let me know when he starts to hit without PEDs

Check out his numbers from the first couple months of this season, and let me know how those look. You can sign me up for a .950 OPS any time. Apparently he decided to stop taking PEDs on June 1st for some reason. Seems logical.

Good job trying to run from your ridiculous unsupportable arguments as usual though.

[wadesworld]

Check out his numbers from the first couple months of this season, and let me know how those look. You can sign me up for a .950 OPS any time. Apparently he decided to stop taking PEDs on June 1st for some reason. Seems logical.

Good job trying to run from your ridiculous unsupportable arguments as usual though.

So wait. You just quoted an article saying he looked into surgical options after being suspended last year. This is a chronic injury. Something still affecting him to this day, over a year later. So he wasn't hurting to start the season? And now he's slumping so the hand is why. If it's a chronic injury, it was bothering him when he was playing last season, he looked into options to have it fixed when he was suspended, chose not to because the options may not have helped anyways, but the chronic injury...went away for a few months to start the year? And reappeared? Man. That's unlike any chronic injury I've ever heard of before.

You're proving my point. He's apparently had this "lingering" thumb issue since last year. Why, when he was at least hitting for a respectable average, did he not need days off like he does now if he has been battling this chronic thumb injury for over a year? If you can play through it while you're hot, why can't you play through it while you're not? If we're being honest here, every single player who has been healthy for a majority of a 162 game season is dinged up in some way. No player is playing pain free at this point of the season. But the only guy I continually see needing a day off after a 4-20 streak is Ryan Braun. Why?

Again, maybe he'll go back to being a .315, 35 homer guy next year and I'll eat crow. I'd put a lot of money on that not happening. Maybe you and other "loyal" Milwaukee fans will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt that suddenly there's this chronic injury that is going to derail his entire Hall of Fame career (because the numbers he put up while on PEDs were certainly sending him in that direction). I guess time will tell.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think he is already in consideration.  Right now I think it goes to Stanton, but Kershaw is lurking. 

Hope not.  Having a player that only impacts a team every 5 games as a MVP is a sham.  Even more of a sham giving it to a DH.

[NavinRJohnson]

So wait. You just quoted an article saying he looked into surgical options after being suspended last year. This is a chronic injury. Something still affecting him to this day, over a year later. So he wasn't hurting to start the season? And now he's slumping so the hand is why. If it's a chronic injury, it was bothering him when he was playing last season, he looked into options to have it fixed when he was suspended, chose not to because the options may not have helped anyways, but the chronic injury...went away for a few months to start the year? And reappeared? Man. That's unlike any chronic injury I've ever heard of before.

As usual your willful ignorance is on full display...you think maybe a chronic issue might get worse after a few months of playing 25 games a month than it would be after a few months of resting. Of course you do. You're just not man enough to admit it.

But let's assume your right...how exactly do you explain the .950 ops for that first third of the season? Had to be taking PEDs, right? If he was? Why did he stop? If he wasn't, why did he stop hitting?

BTW, you obviously don't know anything about chronic injuries. Do they rise and fall? Why yes, of course they do.

I'm out. Continue to make your stupid arguments that in order to make sense, not only require Braun to have taken PEDs for the first two months of this season only, and then stopped, but also that the entire Brewer organization, beat reporters, media etc. play along with the whole fake thumb injury story.

[wadesworld]

As usual your willful ignorance is on full display...you think maybe a chronic issue might get worse after a few months of playing 25 games a month than it would be after a few months of resting. Of course you do. You're just not man enough to admit it.

But let's assume your right...how exactly do you explain the .950 ops for that first third of the season? Had to be taking PEDs, right? If he was? Why did he stop? If he wasn't, why did he stop hitting?

BTW, you obviously don't know anything about chronic injuries. Do they rise and fall? Why yes, of course they do.

I'm out. Continue to make your stupid arguments that in order to make sense, not only require Braun to have taken PEDs for the first two months of this season only, and then stopped, but also that the entire Brewer organization, beat reporters, media etc. play along with the whole fake thumb injury story.

Had to be taking PEDs because he was "hot" for a month?  Uhh, no.  Players go on hot streaks, just like they go on cold streaks.  That's the problem here.  That's been the problem all along.  The body doesn't pick and choose convenient times to get sore and be hurting.  The body doesn't decide, "Hey, you're cold at the plate, so now it's time for this thumb to flare up."  A chronic injury is going to hurt whether you're performing well or not at the plate.  Players get hot for a month.  It's a 162 game season for a reason.  JJ Hardy used to be the best player in baseball for half of seasons at a time, and then the worst for the other half of the season.  Ryan Braun can get on base with decent regularity for a month without PEDs.  When he doesn't have those for a season, he's off the field and not performing consistently.

You can talk about how him raking for the first month all you want.  That's simply not true.  He had 2 good games where he hit 5 home runs combined in 2 games.  Throughout the entire rest of the first half of the season he had a total of 6 home runs.  That is far from the consistent power he had prior to this year.  Even including the 5 homers in 2 games, that's 11 in the first half of the season (and by first half I went with up to the All Star break, which is more than the 81 games that is truly half of a baseball season), so he was on pace for less than 22 home runs this season.  The guy averaged roughly 35 a year for his career up until this point.  If you somehow think the thumb magically wasn't bothering him when he was "hot" to start the season, then why was he only on pace to hit 62% of the home runs that he has hit in his career.  Is 30 old in baseball?  Is he just naturally declining due to age?  I don't think so, but clearly you know more than me, so that must be it, right?  I don't know.  PEDs did nothing to help his numbers/performance on the field and I'm just some crazy, naive, pessimist who knows nothing.  That's what you're telling me.  So there's just some reasonable explanation for a 40% dip in his home runs.  Makes sense.  My bad.

PEDs have allowed Braun to stay healthy and consistently perform.  Does it really come as a surprise to you that neither of those things are happening this season?  You really think it's just a big coincidence that the first season he cannot possibly take PEDs is the first season he isn't a top 5 player in the MLB?  Fine.  Believe Braun.  Believe he just *happened* to be taking them the one time that he *happened* to have only triple the testosterone in his body that the average male adult has in his body.  Believe that he was taking them to *recover* from an injury, even though he had been back from said injury for months by that point.  Believe that ARod had been using steroids while training at Miami University at the same time that Ryan Braun was playing at Miami University, but Ryan Braun saw ARod's success and nearly $300 million contract and said "No way, man, no chance I take that stuff."  Believe that he just happened to become one of the best players in baseball.  Believe that a thumb injury at 28 years old (when it started to bother him) will change him from a Hall of Fame player to an average left fielder in one season.  Believe it man.  Don't let me stop you!  And believe Dino tampered the sample.  Believe it all.  Ryan Braun is one trustworthy dude.

[buckchuckler]

Hope not.  Having a player that only impacts a team every 5 games as a MVP is a sham.  Even more of a sham giving it to a DH.

The reality is that pitchers have won it, and he is having a season where I think he will finish second in voting.

And the worst is when relief pitchers win it.  

[brandx]

The obvious choice is Stanton - he is the best offensive player in the league, but is he the most valuable?

That pitchers have their own award means nothing. The MVP is for the most valuable player regardless of position. Without Kershaw, there is no way the Dodgers win the division. None. Without Kershaw, they would be fighting for a wild card right now.

There is no doubt that he is the single most important player to his team in the NL. Everyone knows that. The question to be debated is whether a pitcher should get the MVP, And for me it is quite simple.

Just ask "is he the most valuable player in the NL. If so, he should get the award regardless of position.

[CTWarrior]

Hope not.  Having a player that only impacts a team every 5 games as a MVP is a sham.  Even more of a sham giving it to a DH.

I don't think this is right.  Kershaw will face more batters than any batter will have plate appearances.  For you to believe a guy with 1/5th the games played as a position player can win, you would have to believe that he has 5 times the impact on the game he starts than does a position player.  That's not ridiculous when it comes to a starting pitcher who regularly pitches late in games.  I think starters deserve the MVP in extreme cases (Guys like Ron Guidry in 1978, Dwight Gooden in 1985, Pedro Martinez in 1999, none of whom won the award).  Clemens in 1986 and Verlander in 2011 were solid choices.

Relievers/closers should never be considered for the award, as they face maybe 200-300 batters/year.  Not enough impact, but starters, who can face 1,000 hitters a year, are legit to me if they are good enough.  Kershaw is certainly good enough.  The Dodgers are 20-4 (.833) when he starts and 62-59 (.512) when he doesn't.  At that rate that'd be 74-71 and fighting for their playoff lives without him, instead of being comfortably in the playoffs with a 82-63 record.  That's a valuable guy.