Derrick vs. Dawson ...in the other 23 games.

[willie warrior]

You keep saying that, both here and on the scout board.   Anthony Candelino comes to mind.   Niv Berkowitz.   Brandon Bell.   Joe Chapman.  Marcus Jackson.   I don't believe that Derrick is an all BE performer.   I have seen nothing beyond the G-town game to indicate he is not the best PG on this year's roster.   And I have advocated several different line up changes this year.    Starting 3 guards.   The end to Oxtule.   Starting Deonte or JJJ.   But there has not yet been a moment where I thought someone other than Derrick should be starting at the point.    

Candelino-yes. Hell, Berkowitz and Bell weren't in the program long enough to qualify. Chapman was better than Derrick, and could shoot. Marcus Jackson was a better soccer player.

[willie warrior]

These are the posts that irritate me.  

Sure everyone on this board would like to have Travis Diener or Sam Worthen walk through that door.  But saying he is the worst is truly dense.  Same could be said about Thomas at Sg.  the point is they are the best we have and to argue that we need to play even lesser players becuase we are not estatic about the ones we have is lunacy!!


6 months ago Derrick was scheduled to be our 3rd string PG, VAnder left Duane got hurt.  What you gonna do?  1 year ago Jake was to be our 4th string 2g , TAylor and vander left, and Todd before a few weeks ago struggled. What you gonna do.  What have your 33 years taught you do do in Buzz's predicament??

Should he go sign 5 top 100 guards?  Well he did that!

Who the hell scheduled Derrick as our 3rd PG 6 months ago, except some on this board, who do not have that responsibility. The guy that does, never scheduled Derrick to be 3rd-el Buzzo.

[willie warrior]

Where do Brian Barone and Brian Barone rank?  Also, we've been fortunate to have Cordell Henry, Dominic James, and Travis Diener which probably take up a lot of your MU memories.

Derrick knows his role (game manager), and it is what it is.  Duane Wilson was probably going to be the starting PG had he not go injured during camp.  If Derrick gives what he gave last night, as a MU fan, I'm more than glad to take that.

Wait--Buzz said Derrick is a game changer, not a game manager.

[willie warrior]

Derrick ever going for 20-10 will never happen...

He may have already done that--20 minutes and 10 assists.

[brandx]

Wait--Buzz said Derrick is a game changer, not a game manager.

Give it a rest. Why don't you PM ners and you two can out on a dinner date and hate on DW all nite.

[MerrittsMustache]

Wait--Buzz said Derrick is a game changer, not a game manager.

Ask Bryce Cotton if Derrick was a "game changer" in that one. Heck, watch MU's game last night and tell me that the game didn't change without Derrick on the floor. Guys can be "game changers" without scoring a bunch of points.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Ask Bryce Cotton if Derrick was a "game changer" in that one. Heck, watch MU's game last night and tell me that the game didn't change without Derrick on the floor. Guys can be "game changers" without scoring a bunch of points.

Lol, wow smh. If u think in any way, shape, or form that he is a game changer u r beyond delusional.

[MerrittsMustache]

Lol, wow smh. If u think in any way, shape, or form that he is a game changer u r beyond delusional.

Well then consider me (and the best head coach MU has had in 30 years) delusional.

[tower912]

It is like you don't even watch the games, just keep repeating the same thing over and over without regards to what actually happened.  Join NERs.    Click.  

[Goose]

We all know the good and bad Derrick and little will change in those two areas this season. To me the biggest negative on Wilson falls in Buzz's lap. Wilson needs to play as many minutes as possible with the right guys. He cannot have too many minutes paired with Jake, CO and Juan. If there are multiple guys that can score on the court the bad Derrick is less exposed.

[MU82]

When folks come on here and trumpet Derrick's "good" games, most of those same games would be unacceptable for any truly good PG in the country. But it's not his fault that he is who he is -- a 10-15 mpg, defense-first backup. He works hard, he mostly plays good defense, he's helped us win a few games (including last night's, despite Ners saying we won despite him), he's played a pretty big negative role in some of our losses, and otherwise he's been barely passable.

We have a lot of very nice folks here who, even while saying Dawson hasn't earned more playing time, go out of their way to say they believe he will be a fine player. I'm assuming all of you actually mean that. But it's way too early to tell how good Dawson is going to be. Had Duane (ESPN's #13 PG; Scout's 4-star) been healthy, Dawson (#44; 3-star) might never have seen the court except for garbage time. That's certainly true had Vander returned. And next year, when Derrick is back, Duane is healthy and 4-star combo guard Sandy Cohen joins the team, we'll have to see where Dawson is on the depth chart.

I'm not saying Dawson won't be good. I'm saying I don't know ... and neither does anybody else -- including Buzz. Right now, his entire body of work is this: 1, he excelled in one game; and 2, he couldn't beat out Derrick in the eyes of the coach who sees both of them for several hours every single day.

Should Dawson have been given the chance to have more than one good game? Should he be starting over Derrick? I'm not here to state opinions; I'm trying to deal with the facts as we know them.

I think it's fairly safe to say that we'll need much better play from our PG next season if we are to avoid being the same kind of bubble team we are now. Whether that means Derrick is going to show us something he hasn't in three years (doubtful), Dawson is going to develop into a consistently good player (who knows?), Duane is the answer (we'll see) or some combination thereof ... well, that's a mystery today.

[willie warrior]

Give it a rest. Why don't you PM ners and you two can out on a dinner date and hate on DW all nite.

No thanks for that suggestion, only made because you and the Sultan of Slurpery do it frequently to get your love woody on for Buzz and DW.

[Eldon]

Somehow 1 game of Dawson playing well, in extended minutes, was enough for you to say he should get the majority minutes though. Pot -->Kettle.

Dawson will be a good player in time.

In fairness, Ners was pushing for Dawson before the Gtown game.

[mattyv1908]

You Scoop veterans just need to handle Ners with kid gloves.

I've found that beginning my argument with "We all agree that Derrick Wilson is not the ideal solution at point guard" acknowledges Ners' feelings as being accurate before kindly dismantling the rest of his logic.

He usually abandons the thread after that.  It's also more enjoyable than just hitting the ignore button.

[GGGG]

No thanks for that suggestion, only made because you and the Sultan of Slurpery do it frequently to get your love woody on for Buzz and DW.

Yeah.   I call him "average at best" and now I have a "love woody."

[Archies Bat]

Yeah.   I call him "average at best" and now I have a "love woody."

No pictures please.

[NersEllenson]

Somehow 1 game of Dawson playing well, in extended minutes, was enough for you to say he should get the majority minutes though. Pot -->Kettle.

Dawson will be a good player in time.

Sorry Jesu - I've been saying it since Grambling game...Dawson needed a lot more minutes...and been consistent in that belief throughout the season.  The belief is two fold:  1) I believe Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick, and because Dawson can at least shoot FT's and 3 point shots somewhat effectively...he has to be guarded all over the floor thereby helping to make other players jobs easier. Dawson also sees the floor better than does Derrick..and has more natural PG skills.

2) The intensity of my argument increased as Derrick largely continued to put up the same type of numbers after 10 games - things weren't getting better - his numbers in the last 12 games are basically the same as the first 12 games.  There's been little improvement.

I don't dispute Dawson had a really bad game last night - his worst one of the year - but, there have been about 15 duds Derrick has put up this season...maybe 19 if you grade somewhat difficult.  Just love how you guys are so quick to rail on Dawson for 1 bad game....and use it as evidence it is so clear cut he doesn't deserve more PT...while Derrick puts up 15-20 clunkers...and he's all good.  Ironic

Now, if this team were sitting say, 17-7...and looking solid...I'd have backed off the argument.  But to trumpet such paltry production from a guy getting 29.7 minutes is ridiculous.  I'd bet both of my nuts that if you gave Dawson 29 minutes per game...his numbers would exceed Derricks.  We'll never know...probably will take till Dawson's Junior year, and Derrick out of the program for John to show his full ability....and I guarantee you it will be a hell of a lot more productive than what we've gotten from Derrick.

The overriding point of course is that Buzz has tried everything under the sun to try to make this team a winner....and none of the efforts have worked.  Now, of course, he's finally giving Mayo what he's been due for a long time..that helps...but, he's been hell bent on Derrick getting 30....and is gonna ride it out with him for the year it looks like.  And I'll stand by it...that continues...we will lose 3-4 of our remaining games...even with Mayo getting more PT he deserves.

[willie warrior]

Yeah.   I call him "average at best" and now I have a "love woody."

Now that we have determined your preference for performance standard "average at best", slurp away. By the way the reference also was toward Buzz. And sometimes "love woodies" are a good thing.

[jesmu84]

Sorry Jesu - I've been saying it since Grambling game...Dawson needed a lot more minutes...and been consistent in that belief throughout the season.  The belief is two fold:  1) I believe Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick, and because Dawson can at least shoot FT's and 3 point shots somewhat effectively...he has to be guarded all over the floor thereby helping to make other players jobs easier. Dawson also sees the floor better than does Derrick..and has more natural PG skills.

2) The intensity of my argument increased as Derrick largely continued to put up the same type of numbers after 10 games - things weren't getting better - his numbers in the last 12 games are basically the same as the first 12 games.  There's been little improvement.

I don't dispute Dawson had a really bad game last night - his worst one of the year - but, there have been about 15 duds Derrick has put up this season...maybe 19 if you grade somewhat difficult.  Just love how you guys are so quick to rail on Dawson for 1 bad game....and use it as evidence it is so clear cut he doesn't deserve more PT...while Derrick puts up 15-20 clunkers...and he's all good.  Ironic

Now, if this team were sitting say, 17-7...and looking solid...I'd have backed off the argument.  But to trumpet such paltry production from a guy getting 29.7 minutes is ridiculous.  I'd bet both of my nuts that if you gave Dawson 29 minutes per game...his numbers would exceed Derricks.  We'll never know...probably will take till Dawson's Junior year, and Derrick out of the program for John to show his full ability....and I guarantee you it will be a hell of a lot more productive than what we've gotten from Derrick.

The overriding point of course is that Buzz has tried everything under the sun to try to make this team a winner....and none of the efforts have worked.  Now, of course, he's finally giving Mayo what he's been due for a long time..that helps...but, he's been hell bent on Derrick getting 30....and is gonna ride it out with him for the year it looks like.  And I'll stand by it...that continues...we will lose 3-4 of our remaining games...even with Mayo getting more PT he deserves.

No need to apologize. you've been consistent. The reason, I, personally, responded about the 1 extended game stuff is because, although you've been consistent about asking for Dawson to get more minutes since Grambling, you really started hammering home the "in the only game where he's gotten continuous extended minutes, he was great" argument after georgetown. If you're going to trumpet that as reason for Dawson getting "one game of 30 minutes", then you have to accept last night's game as the reason he shouldn't get one of those games. You can't, logically, focus on the one example that supports your argument, while ignoring the other. This has nothing to do with Derrick. If you use Georgetown as the reason Dawson should play more (his only extended minute game, he was good) then you have to accept that this as a reason he shouldn't play more. Nothing to do with Derrick. Nothing to do with ceiling or potential.

[mattyv1908]

Sorry Jesu - I've been saying it since Grambling game...Dawson needed a lot more minutes...and been consistent in that belief throughout the season.  The belief is two fold:  1) I believe Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick, and because Dawson can at least shoot FT's and 3 point shots somewhat effectively...he has to be guarded all over the floor thereby helping to make other players jobs easier. Dawson also sees the floor better than does Derrick..and has more natural PG skills.

2) The intensity of my argument increased as Derrick largely continued to put up the same type of numbers after 10 games - things weren't getting better - his numbers in the last 12 games are basically the same as the first 12 games.  There's been little improvement.

I don't dispute Dawson had a really bad game last night - his worst one of the year - but, there have been about 15 duds Derrick has put up this season...maybe 19 if you grade somewhat difficult.  Just love how you guys are so quick to rail on Dawson for 1 bad game....and use it as evidence it is so clear cut he doesn't deserve more PT...while Derrick puts up 15-20 clunkers...and he's all good.  Ironic

Now, if this team were sitting say, 17-7...and looking solid...I'd have backed off the argument.  But to trumpet such paltry production from a guy getting 29.7 minutes is ridiculous.  I'd bet both of my nuts that if you gave Dawson 29 minutes per game...his numbers would exceed Derricks.  We'll never know...probably will take till Dawson's Junior year, and Derrick out of the program for John to show his full ability....and I guarantee you it will be a hell of a lot more productive than what we've gotten from Derrick.

The overriding point of course is that Buzz has tried everything under the sun to try to make this team a winner....and none of the efforts have worked.  Now, of course, he's finally giving Mayo what he's been due for a long time..that helps...but, he's been hell bent on Derrick getting 30....and is gonna ride it out with him for the year it looks like.  And I'll stand by it...that continues...we will lose 3-4 of our remaining games...even with Mayo getting more PT he deserves.

Ners,

John Dawson does have a higher ceiling.  He does shoot the ball better, he is more of a scoring threat, he does command defensive attention and he does make good decisions in the half court.

Just because someone has a higher ceiling doesn't mean an 18 year old kid is at that point either physically, mentally, confidence wise, basketball IQ, or any combination of the above mentioned reasons ready to reach that ceiling.  It's called player development.  It doesn't happen overnight.  With some players there is a faster learning curve and some take time.

I think Derrick Wilson is a limited player.  That said, John Dawson doesn't handle pressure defense as well as Wilson, he makes 'lazy' passes without emphasis, he needs to become a better defender and he needs more seasoning.  It's simply due to the fact that he's playing for the first time against guys that are all as good or better than him and he needs to adjust his game to match that.  It's not rocket science.  He was probably the best kid on his HS team and now he's playing with guys who were all the best kid on their respected HS teams.

Should Buzz have played him more in non conference play along with Johnson and Burton?  That's a worthy discussion but with SEVEN games to go it's a mute point and irrelevant.

This Marquette TEAM struggles for long stretches to score baskets.  That is not just a Derrick Wilson problem.  When a team struggles to fill the basket up like this team does, it cannot afford easy baskets or unforced turnovers.  Does Derrick Wilson leave much to be desired?  Yes.  Does he have a more sure hand with the ball and plays better team defense?  Yes.  He's still our better option right now.  That statement may say something larger about the makeup of this year's team but it's the truth.

At this point we have to trust he's going to hurt us les than he helps us and hope that J Wilson, Gardner and Mayo continue to bring it every night.

[NersEllenson]

Ners,

John Dawson does have a higher ceiling.  He does shoot the ball better, he is more of a scoring threat, he does command defensive attention and he does make good decisions in the half court.

Just because someone has a higher ceiling doesn't mean an 18 year old kid is at that point either physically, mentally, confidence wise, basketball IQ, or any combination of the above mentioned reasons ready to reach that ceiling.  It's called player development.  It doesn't happen overnight.  With some players there is a faster learning curve and some take time.

I think Derrick Wilson is a limited player.  That said, John Dawson doesn't handle pressure defense as well as Wilson, he makes 'lazy' passes without emphasis, he needs to become a better defender and he needs more seasoning.  It's simply due to the fact that he's playing for the first time against guys that are all as good or better than him and he needs to adjust his game to match that.  It's not rocket science.  He was probably the best kid on his HS team and now he's playing with guys who were all the best kid on their respected HS teams.

Should Buzz have played him more in non conference play along with Johnson and Burton?  That's a worthy discussion but with SEVEN games to go it's a mute point and irrelevant.

This Marquette TEAM struggles for long stretches to score baskets.  That is not just a Derrick Wilson problem.  When a team struggles to fill the basket up like this team does, it cannot afford easy baskets or unforced turnovers.  Does Derrick Wilson leave much to be desired?  Yes.  Does he have a more sure hand with the ball and plays better team defense?  Yes.  He's still our better option right now.  That statement may say something larger about the makeup of this year's team but it's the truth.

At this point we have to trust he's going to hurt us les than he helps us and hope that J Wilson, Gardner and Mayo continue to bring it every night.

True statement at end...and all in all well said...and I can't disagree with a majority of what you wrote.  I don't dispute Derrick being a better defender than John, and he is more secure with the ball..yet their turnover percentages per minute played really are not drastically different..believe Dawson would average 1.8 turns per 30 minutes and Derrick is averaging 1.4 turnovers per 30...

And as many of Derrick's supporters here have acknowledged - he is limited - where I just disagree is with how fast they are to dismiss what Dawson can/could bring...with such limited sample size of playing big minutes.  He was BAD last night...it happens to every player...but...in my opinion...that was his one BAD game this year...that you could say he got a good stretch of run to get in a flow...and just performed really poorly.  My point, is there have been many stretches of Derrick playing really poorly this season...and the team looking absolutely disjointed/awful.

[Stretchdeltsig]

Appreciate Derrick's play against Seton Hall.  He played one of his best games.  Although Dawson didn't play as well, his upside is much higher than Derrick's.

[Class71]

This post in no way, shape, or form is intended to be a slight against young john Dawson. i like everything he has been in his 8 months at Marquette. Emphasis on the 8 months.

This post is intended to call out the lunacy from many on this board, most especially Ners, who has ripped Derrick and stated ad nauseum that Dawson need to be the PG going forward.

I will be the first one to say that Derrick Wlson will not be on the Mt. Rushmore of MU PG's and in fact wouldnt even be on the Mt. Rushmore of MU pg's in the last 10-15 years. 

However, he is a junior, and while he may not have the upside of Mr. Dawson or the other Freshman the bottom line is Dawson is a Freshman.

Not matter how loud or no matter how many times Ners yells something, that doesnt make him correct.  Derrick Wilson in 23 of 24 games has been the best Pg on the floor for MU.

Last night MU had 3 turrnovers hwne Derrick left the game in the first half.  Mu was pounding SH.  John dawson came in and struggled, as Freshman are proneto do.  In fact our other freshman struggled last night too.  3 turnovers and 3 fouls later, Buzz had to do something, he went to Todd Mayo at PG , for the first time all year.  That was a disaster, then he tried Jamil, similar results.  The Half ends in a1 point game.  12 point lead gone! 3 Turnovers turned into 11!! 
Second HAlf Derrick plays the whole half and the entire team has 2 turnovers.  derrick has 0 for the game.  In the entire  27  minutes that derrick played Mu had 5 turnovers. In the time that Derrick sat out in the first half MU had 8 to 3 for SH.,, the defense was weaker and the lead was blown.  And I am not even touching on the perimeter defense that Derrick plays. 

Then last night NErs, posts Derricks stats and says something to the effect that they were mediocre.  What a joke.  The kids a Warrior, and for all things that he is not.  he is still by far our best option at the PG.  And for 23-24 games this year its not really even debatable.

I think the debate for Dawson/Wilson has been over for some time. That is opinions on all sides will not change. I am fine with that. Consider that a good experience because you will be very frustrated in life if you believe people will change their opinion based on some magical logic. If some frustrate you I would suggest blocking their messages. That is what I do and it works for me. You may wish to start with blocking my messages.

[mattyv1908]

Ners,

Nice follow up.

I think the board would agree with my next statement.  Either a fan has given up on this season or they haven't yet.  You're still watching the games which to me would indicate you still want them to win.  If you still want them to win then I would tend to believe that you still think they can make the NCAAT.

We can second guess the rotations/playing time/freshman development early/etc. after the season.  For the moment can we just remain hopeful that there's a quality stretch run in this team and be fans?  We have the current roster as it sits right now.  It is what it is.

[ATL MU Warrior]

In fairness, Ners was pushing for Dawson before the Gtown game.

Ah yes, the Magical Grambling performance.

Every guy on the team looked like a future HOFer in that game...because it was GRAMBLING!