Derrick vs. Dawson ...in the other 23 games.

[River rat]

Sorry Jesu - I've been saying it since Grambling game...Dawson needed a lot more minutes...and been consistent in that belief throughout the season.  The belief is two fold:  1) I believe Dawson has a much higher ceiling than Derrick, and because Dawson can at least shoot FT's and 3 point shots somewhat effectively...he has to be guarded all over the floor thereby helping to make other players jobs easier. Dawson also sees the floor better than does Derrick..and has more natural PG skills.

2) The intensity of my argument increased as Derrick largely continued to put up the same type of numbers after 10 games - things weren't getting better - his numbers in the last 12 games are basically the same as the first 12 games.  There's been little improvement.

I don't dispute Dawson had a really bad game last night - his worst one of the year - but, there have been about 15 duds Derrick has put up this season...maybe 19 if you grade somewhat difficult.  Just love how you guys are so quick to rail on Dawson for 1 bad game....and use it as evidence it is so clear cut he doesn't deserve more PT...while Derrick puts up 15-20 clunkers...and he's all good.  Ironic

Now, if this team were sitting say, 17-7...and looking solid...I'd have backed off the argument.  But to trumpet such paltry production from a guy getting 29.7 minutes is ridiculous.  I'd bet both of my nuts that if you gave Dawson 29 minutes per game...his numbers would exceed Derricks.  We'll never know...probably will take till Dawson's Junior year, and Derrick out of the program for John to show his full ability....and I guarantee you it will be a hell of a lot more productive than what we've gotten from Derrick.

The overriding point of course is that Buzz has tried everything under the sun to try to make this team a winner....and none of the efforts have worked.  Now, of course, he's finally giving Mayo what he's been due for a long time..that helps...but, he's been hell bent on Derrick getting 30....and is gonna ride it out with him for the year it looks like.  And I'll stand by it...that continues...we will lose 3-4 of our remaining games...even with Mayo getting more PT he deserves.

Ners did you think Dawson deserved more minutes last night against SHU.  Do you think his struggles were because he only got a 9 minute consecutive stretch and really needed more than that to get "warmed up"?

[NersEllenson]

Ners did you think Dawson deserved more minutes last night against SHU.  Do you think his struggles were because he only got a 9 minute consecutive stretch and really needed more than that to get "warmed up"?

No, don't feel Dawson "earned" more minutes after his poor showing in the first half against Seton Hall.  Yet, considering Derrick has gotten TONS more minutes after many similarly brutal 9 minute stretches (and not even pulled) this season....Buzz has definitely set a precedent that more minutes can be gotten even if on court game performance is poor.

Question for you - Did you think we'd be an NIT team this year?  

[River rat]

Ners could you please point me to the game where Derrick came in for 9 minutes had 3 turnovers, 3 fouls and was horrendous on defense and the team blew a 12 point lead.  You stated Derrick has had similar stretches , yet Buzz afforded him the opportunity to stay in.  Please give me which game you are refferring to.
thx in advance

[GGGG]

Ners could you please point me to the game where Derrick came in for 9 minutes had 3 turnovers, 3 fouls and was horrendous on defense and the team blew a 12 point lead.  You stated Derrick has had similar stretches , yet Buzz afforded him the opportunity to stay in.  Please give me which game you are refferring to.
thx in advance

To be fair, MU actually increased its lead when Dawson was playing.  They blew the lead when they took Dawson out and tried to run Jamil at point.

[San Diego Warrior]

Candelino-yes. Hell, Berkowitz and Bell weren't in the program long enough to qualify. Chapman was better than Derrick, and could shoot. Marcus Jackson was a better soccer player.

I don't think you remember how bad we were during those years at the point.  We had to use Marcus Jackson because he was the least likely to turn the ball over going up the court.  Teams would press us and we would consistently turn it over.  Chapman was slow, was a streaky shooter and not an effective PG.   His Junior season he averaged 8.1 points, 1.16 assists and 1.84 turnovers.  His Senior season he aveeraged 6.0 pnts, 1.45 assists, and  .58 turnovers. 

Playing in conference usa was not the equivalent of the Big East either.

[dddawson]

Young Dawson will be alright ..... He can hold his own ..... Just has to get use to teams playing man when he's in cause if they play zone with him in (ask Georgetown ) it's a no brainier ..... But he's learning from Derrick and the other vets

[NersEllenson]

Ners could you please point me to the game where Derrick came in for 9 minutes had 3 turnovers, 3 fouls and was horrendous on defense and the team blew a 12 point lead.  You stated Derrick has had similar stretches , yet Buzz afforded him the opportunity to stay in.  Please give me which game you are refferring to.
thx in advance

As pointed out to you, you have your stats wrong about the lead situation when Derrick went out/Dawson went in..in Seton Hall. The irony is that the "lead" in the Seton Hall was 6 when Derrick went out in first half..and that came on the heels of Jamil Wilson going 4-4 from field and 3-3 from 3pt line..how lead was built.  "Lead" grew by 2 with Dawson in game for the next 8 minutes...EVEN WITH DAWSON'S AWFUL STRETCH OF 3 TURNOVERS AND 3 FOULS...AND WITH JAMIL NOT BEING EN FUEGO - the teams STILL managed to grow a lead.  Points to how much Dawson's presence on floor can help other guys...even though Dawson was totally awful!!  That's the point..his presence helps the other 4 guys on court...

As for Derrick's poor 9 minute stretches - I said similar, NOT exact, 9 minutes of 3 fouls and 3 turnovers....but...you can look at both Butler games and find stints of 7 minutes with 2 turnovers, and 2 fouls...and there have been so many empty stretches of 9 minutes where Derrick doesn't even show up in a play by play sheet...beyond perhaps 1 rebound, 1 assist...and usually a missed shot/FT.

Derrick is the quintessential back up caliber PG at this level.  If Buzz bit the bullet earlier in the year and gave Dawson a consistent 20...and then upped to 30 by conference...I can assure you Dawson's numbers would be NO worse than Derricks...definitely not at FT line, or 3 pt line...and probably similar from Field.  Of course, we'd give up some on the defensive end...yet I doubt what we give up on the defensive end with Dawson is more, than what his ability on offensive end and ability to shoot 3pt shot...would do for opening things up for his 4 teammates, that are bogged down with Derrick at PG.

[MerrittsMustache]

As pointed out to you, you have your stats wrong about the lead situation when Derrick went out/Dawson went in..in Seton Hall. The irony is that the "lead" in the Seton Hall was 6 when Derrick went out in first half..and that came on the heels of Jamil Wilson going 4-4 from field and 3-3 from 3pt line..how lead was built.  "Lead" grew by 2 with Dawson in game for the next 8 minutes...EVEN WITH DAWSON'S AWFUL STRETCH OF 3 TURNOVERS AND 3 FOULS...AND WITH JAMIL NOT BEING EN FUEGO - the teams STILL managed to grow a lead.  Points to how much Dawson's presence on floor can help other guys...even though Dawson was totally awful!!  That's the point..his presence helps the other 4 guys on court...

I "signed" the NEP but, honestly, how can someone not find this paragraph to be unintentional hilarity at its finest! I mean, Derrick being on the floor had nothing to do with the team playing well but the mere presence of John Dawson and his awful play made the team better.

I had him on ignore for a while, is Ners parodying himself?

[GGGG]

I "signed" the NEP but, honestly, how can someone not find this paragraph to be unintentional hilarity at its finest! I mean, Derrick being on the floor had nothing to do with the team playing well but the mere presence of John Dawson and his awful play made the team better.

I had him on ignore for a while, is Ners parodying himself?

Ners is the guy who buys drinks for alcoholics.  So stay strong Merritts!!!  We are here for you if you need to talk about it.  The NEP will be over in a matter of weeks.

[NersEllenson]

I "signed" the NEP but, honestly, how can someone not find this paragraph to be unintentional hilarity at its finest! I mean, Derrick being on the floor had nothing to do with the team playing well but the mere presence of John Dawson and his awful play made the team better.

I had him on ignore for a while, is Ners parodying himself?

LOL - It isn't really that hard of concept to wrap your head around Merritt...as awful as Dawson was...the team was still able to grow a lead with him committing 3 turnovers and 3 fouls in the 8 minute stretch...and this takes into account our elite defender (Derrick) was on the bench and we were subject to Dawson's liabilities as a defender...and not to mention the liability he was offensively against Seton Hall with the turnovers....yet the team still grew the lead with him in the game...and the en fuego Jamil sat out some of that stretch??!

What's your take on why Derrick had ZERO assists in the 2nd half in 20 minutes of action against Hall??  How can a guy be such an amazing playmaker to rack up 5 assists in the first 7 minutes of a game...and then not get 1 more the remaining 20 minutes??  Remarkable, isn't it?!

I know you feel I grasp at straws to support Dawson...but you..and your far flung grasping for straws to try to champion Derrick?  Cmon man!  I mean the fact he shot 3-4 from FT line against Hall is cause for celebration??!!  Of course it is, because the bar is set so low...Go look at the Paint Touches article and pictures if you need a little more perspective.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I "signed" the NEP but, honestly, how can someone not find this paragraph to be unintentional hilarity at its finest! I mean, Derrick being on the floor had nothing to do with the team playing well but the mere presence of John Dawson and his awful play made the team better.

I had him on ignore for a while, is Ners parodying himself?

Just when you were about to earn your one week chip. It's ok Merritt, we all backslide sometimes. Stay strong

[BenCat12]

I don't think you remember how bad we were during those years at the point.  We had to use Marcus Jackson because he was the least likely to turn the ball over going up the court.  Teams would press us and we would consistently turn it over.  Chapman was slow, was a streaky shooter and not an effective PG.   His Junior season he averaged 8.1 points, 1.16 assists and 1.84 turnovers.  His Senior season he aveeraged 6.0 pnts, 1.45 assists, and  .58 turnovers. 

Playing in conference usa was not the equivalent of the Big East either.

One big difference everyone seems to forget while ripping Chapman and Jackson is that neither was brought here to play PG and both started at different positions.  Jackson was our starting center and Chapman was a 2/3 that was forced to play PG.  Completely different than Derrick who was recruited as a point guard. 

[willie warrior]

I don't think you remember how bad we were during those years at the point.  We had to use Marcus Jackson because he was the least likely to turn the ball over going up the court.  Teams would press us and we would consistently turn it over.  Chapman was slow, was a streaky shooter and not an effective PG.   His Junior season he averaged 8.1 points, 1.16 assists and 1.84 turnovers.  His Senior season he aveeraged 6.0 pnts, 1.45 assists, and  .58 turnovers. 

Playing in conference usa was not the equivalent of the Big East either.

What are you talking about on Joe Chapman? He was a hell of a lot better than Derrick. Played on a Final 4 team. Much better shooter.

[MerrittsMustache]

I appreciate the support, Sultan and TAMU. I'll get through this.

[willie warrior]

Ners,

Nice follow up.

I think the board would agree with my next statement.  Either a fan has given up on this season or they haven't yet.  You're still watching the games which to me would indicate you still want them to win.  If you still want them to win then I would tend to believe that you still think they can make the NCAAT.

We can second guess the rotations/playing time/freshman development early/etc. after the season.  For the moment can we just remain hopeful that there's a quality stretch run in this team and be fans?  We have the current roster as it sits right now.  It is what it is.

Not trying to crush Ners here, Lord knows he is getting it from a lot of corners, but he could be watching the games to see if there is a change in performance of Dawson and Derrick to scream at his detractors, "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!" After all just about everybody on this board longs to be able to say that to their detractors.

[River rat]

Young Dawson will be alright ..... He can hold his own ..... Just has to get use to teams playing man when he's in cause if they play zone with him in (ask Georgetown ) it's a no brainier ..... But he's learning from Derrick and the other vets

I think the MU fanbase as a whole loves John Dawson.  There is a lot to like.  As Al said, "the best thing about Freshman is they become Sophomores".
I have followed Mu BBall for 38 years.  I can count on one hand the number of Freshman that suited up for Mu as Freshman and did not have their struggles.  I can count on many fingers, toes, and more those that had years similar Freshman seasons to those of JJJ, Deonte, and John, and proceeded to have long professional careers. 
A few examples of that are Amal McCaskill, Tony Smith, and Chris Crawford.  look at their career progression.  I can tell you firsthand that those three were hard to watch as Freshman, in fact all three had far poorer years than our three Freshman are having this year.  Fans cringed and covered their eyes when they went in. 
Bottom line they busted their asses for 4 years kept their noses clean and took advantage of the opportunity and developed into tremendous players.  Its a process and I hope those three dont get discouraged.  They only need to look at those three guys and dozens of others to see the process.  In fact i hope those three are dreaming and working for really big things for their Junior and Senior seasons.  The sky is truly the limit for them, if they trust in Buzz conference titles and deep tourney runs are in their future.  Those 3 and Duane are that good. 

[GGGG]

I think the MU fanbase as a whole loves John Dawson.  There is a lot to like.  As Al said, "the best thing about Freshman is they become Sophomores".
I have followed Mu BBall for 38 years.  I can count on one hand the number of Freshman that suited up for Mu as Freshman and did not have their struggles.  I can count on many fingers, toes, and more those that had years similar Freshman seasons to those of JJJ, Deonte, and John, and proceeded to have long professional careers. 
A few examples of that are Amal McCaskill, Tony Smith, and Chris Crawford.  look at their career progression.  I can tell you firsthand that those three were hard to watch as Freshman, in fact all three had far poorer years than our three Freshman are having this year.  Fans cringed and covered their eyes when they went in. 
Bottom line they busted their asses for 4 years kept their noses clean and took advantage of the opportunity and developed into tremendous players.  Its a process and I hope those three dont get discouraged.  They only need to look at those three guys and dozens of others to see the process.  In fact i hope those three are dreaming and working for really big things for their Junior and Senior seasons.  The sky is truly the limit for them, if they trust in Buzz conference titles and deep tourney runs are in their future.  Those 3 and Duane are that good. 

And Luke....I think you could throw him in that mix as well.

[tower912]

I do not have a single complaint about Dawson.   He has done all that can be asked of a freshman.   He has worked hard, he has kept his nose clean, he has learned, he has progressed.   He has assumed the role Derrick had last year, as an 8 minute a game back up PG with a few bursts of really good play.   I look forward to watching him the rest of this year and the next 3.   It is in no way, shape, or form meant as a criticism to say that I simply don't believe he is ready to play starters minutes at the point yet. 

[keefe]

Man, you go away for a month and all of this belching and farting is still going on.

So, what is the bottom line: Derrick or Dawson?

[willie warrior]

Man, you go away for a month and all of this belching and farting is still going on.

So, what is the bottom line: Derrick or Dawson?

Bottom Line: Whatever Buzz dictates. In Buzz we trust.