Net neutrality war begins...

[ChicosBailBonds]

For the record Obama made things difficult for himself when he kowtowed to lobbyists interests by appointing Wheeler in the first place.  Wheeler was one of the chief lobbyists for the ISP side of things prior to becoming a fundraiser for Obama that likely landed him the job in the first place.

What lawsuits are going to be filed?  How could you possibly know if they will prevail?  If the ISPs want to take this to court that's great, but they might stir the monster that is popular opinion which could in turn wake the Congress' ability to assess internet providers as monopolies and establish law of the land that treats them as utilities.

I've been in this industry for a long time.  It was well over a year ago when I told you guys Aereo would fail in SCOTUS despite protestations here.  It ultimately did fail.  I told you mergers were coming and would be approved long before they started, and what happens...Comcast and TWC to merge (it will be approved IMO), AT&T and DTV to merger (it will be approved IMO).  More are coming.

I told you guys a few weeks ago HBO will be likely $20 or more as a standalone, many of you disagree......let's see how that one plays out, but I'm ready to bet the farm.

I'm a little surprised by your comment about lobbyists, however.  Could have sworn in 2008 no lobbyists were going to be put into these positions.  Very strange.   

Why will the lawsuits prevail, I could give you any number of reasons, but they are outlined here for starters.  http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304049704579320500441593462


At the end of the day, this is a subject that most Americans know nothing about except a few gothca headlines. As one of the Bambi architects who was caught on tape (reveled yesterday) about bambicare stated (I'm paraphrasing), most of the American public is stupid and we crafted legislation so the stupid couldn't figure it out but as long as it achieved the means to the end, it was ok. 

Ends justifies the means.   

Treating the net like a public utility is bad news in the long run for development, innovation, etc.  Sorry, I'm not excited about having more government intervention.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I've worked in the Telecom industry for 15 years (and have other unique experiences to provide insight). I could write several long posts detailing both sides of net neutrality.

Here's the (not-so) concise version:
1. Data traffic is growing exponentially, and video comprises most of that growth.
2. Building out networks to support exponential data growth is expensive.
3. Video streaming/communications providers largely are forcing the increased network growth but do not pay for the costs of building out the networks. In other words, they are free-riding on the network infrastructure.
4. There should be some mechanism to recover these costs and provide better quality of service via charging. This can benefit consumers and already happens in many networks.
5. However, once you provide preferential treatment of some websites over others, a system of haves and have-nots is created by default. This can discourage innovation.
6. Companies pushing hardest for net neutrality are already established companies that free-ride on network infrastructure, which will also discourage innovation.
7. Government regulation and rate-setting is inefficient but the primary way to do net neutrality.
8. Without government involvement, huge geographic portions of the country will be left behind on broadband speed. The cost/benefit of providing high-speed broadband in Westby, WI isn't as strong as in Milwaukee.
9. It's easy to side with the net neutrality people, such as google and netflix, and it's easy to side against Comcast and Time Warner. Both positions are wrong.

This is a messy, gray issue where an inefficient government has to play a role and neither the service providers nor the content providers have particularly clean hands. It is too simplistic to view this as, "keep the internet free".

Unfortunately, this issue and thread are, and will further, devolve into your typical black-white, left-right politics bullsh*t. Speaking of which, I'd appreciate it if people did not quote Chicos.

Sorry RL...much of what you stated I agree with.  You have a better grasp on this than 99% of the public, the problem I have is when people say make it a public utility, that is dumb beyond dumb, but we have many dumb people in this country so it gains traction.

[mu03eng]

Sorry RL...much of what you stated I agree with.  You have a better grasp on this than 99% of the public, the problem I have is when people say make it a public utility, that is dumb beyond dumb, but we have many dumb people in this country so it gains traction.

While preferable to not take it all the way to a public utility to say it is a dumb idea is...well....dumb.  There are positive and negatives to all solutions, perhaps there are better solutions but that doesn't mean treating it as a utility is a terrible one.

And for someone who purports to be a believer in democracy you seem to have an awful lot of disdain for those that would be participants in said democracy.

[mu03eng]

Nationalization of the transport networks, such as a publicly traded company like CenturyLink? That is... unlikely.

Data compression is an ongoing effort that works with the constraints of physics. I'm not aware of any significant techniques under development that would be considered disruptive. The primary effort these days is caching nodes in transport networks to reduce the core impact.

What is also being done is trying to increase the capacity in the last mile of high speed bandwidth delivery (ie - to your house). There are some efforts to roll out Gigabit Ethernet service to consumers, but a good rule of thumb is $1000 per customer just to lay fiber. That's not equipment or operations costs or salaries. Repeat times 300 million Americans and you get a feel for the scope and stakes of supporting increased data growth.

Yeah data compression, barring a change in theoretical physics isn't going to be the pancea but I do know there are some efforts underway to identify and prioritize traffic based on data type that might yield some short term benefit.  Demand for data is growing far too fast though for it to have a lasting impact.

[brandx]

Chicos: At the end of the day, this is a subject that most Americans know nothing about except a few gothca headlines.

Chicos: the problem I have is when people say make it a public utility, that is dumb beyond dumb, but we have many dumb people in this country so it gains traction

Chicos: The lack of fundamental business understanding on this board is alarming at times, quite frankly.  MU should make every student enroll in several business classes because too many graduates either believe fairy dust is running the world or they just don't get it.


Wow... somebody has a bit of an ego situation

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos: At the end of the day, this is a subject that most Americans know nothing about except a few gothca headlines.

Chicos: the problem I have is when people say make it a public utility, that is dumb beyond dumb, but we have many dumb people in this country so it gains traction

Chicos: The lack of fundamental business understanding on this board is alarming at times, quite frankly.  MU should make every student enroll in several business classes because too many graduates either believe fairy dust is running the world or they just don't get it.


Wow... somebody has a bit of an ego situation

Chico is very much an elitist and as such holds more people than not in contempt. The only time he defends the hoi polloi is when their ignorance aligns them with his world view. As an example, if your "dumbness" makes you unaware that a word is defined as a racial slur, he'll support the conclusion your dumbness brings you to because it's in agreement with his position. Hell, he'll more than support your dumbness - he'll be insulted on your behalf.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico is very much an elitist and as such holds more people than not in contempt. The only time he defends the hoi polloi is when their ignorance aligns them with his world view. As an example, if your "dumbness" makes you unaware that a word is defined as a racial slur, he'll support the conclusion your dumbness brings you to because it's in agreement with his position. Hell, he'll more than support your dumbness - he'll be insulted on your behalf.

Actually, no one can be slurred unless they feel slurred.  That's the action or inaction, but that's a discussion for a different thread....feel free to bring it up there.

Thanks for quoting Brand, he continues to not understand and I'm not going to bother...life is too short.  I will say, however, it has nothing to do with ego but common sense reality of the busy lives that people have.  You're talking about a populace in which almost 50% can't identify New York on a US map.  You can choose whichever reason(s) you wish for this.  Education.  Too busy.  Don't care.  Net neutrality a complex issue that the vast vast vast majority does not understand.  That is not being elite, and it certainly isn't holding someone in contempt....people only have so much time to understand their daily lives, let alone something this complex.  That's just the way it is.  Journalists can't get it right and when they can't, they are only passing on wrong information to the already misinformed. 

Henry correctly stated some of the complexities, though a few were untouched.  One way or another, this is going to be in the courts for many years.  Involves a tremendous amount of money, regulatory discussion, freedom issues, technological innovation and investment, etc.  Topics that all too many Americans don't get to any level of sophistication. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

While preferable to not take it all the way to a public utility to say it is a dumb idea is...well....dumb.  There are positive and negatives to all solutions, perhaps there are better solutions but that doesn't mean treating it as a utility is a terrible one.

And for someone who purports to be a believer in democracy you seem to have an awful lot of disdain for those that would be participants in said democracy.

Yes, treating it as a public utility is a terrible idea....and a dumb one.  There are other solutions, better beyond compare.  Public utility of the net is beyond dumb, which is why the gov't is looking at it. If they go this approach, I would gather within 10 years it is broken up because of the unintended consequences of it.

How am I holding in disdain participants of a democracy?  Am I preventing people from talking to their representatives?  Voting?  Contributing to campaigns? Volunteering?  Holding forums?  Participating in public comments by gov't agencies?  Please explain. 

[Pakuni]

I sense the Dunning-Kruger effect at work here.

Or, as Bertrand Russell put it:
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision."

Anyhow, all this talk of data compression reminds me of one of the funniest scenes in recent memory, from the show "Silicon Valley."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hUV9yhqgY

[ChicosBailBonds]

I sense the Dunning-Kruger effect at work here.

Or, as Bertrand Russell put it:
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision."

Anyhow, all this talk of data compression reminds me of one of the funniest scenes in recent memory, from the show "Silicon Valley."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hUV9yhqgY

We studied DK effect in managerial work.  I'm sure you will find this ironic, but I've been rated as someone with too much self doubt, not inclined to go with my first instincts enough and looking for too much collaborative evidence.  Something that I've had to work on.  As one VP would often say, "You completely underestimate yourself too often, you are way too hard on yourself. You usually have the right strategic answers out of the gate, but you spend too much time looking at every possible way to kill your own conclusions."   As I politely told him, "yes, because if that strategy is wrong and I don't find every possible hole in the strategy up front, then it is my ass".     I'm extremely self-aware of my abilities, so I have no problem telling someone "I don't know" or "I can't do it" rather than watching people pretend they can and fall short.

DK has it's flaws....good read.  http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-and-isnt/

[brandx]

We studied DK effect in managerial work.  I'm sure you will find this ironic, but I've been rated as someone with too much self doubt, not inclined to go with my first instincts enough and looking for too much collaborative evidence.  Something that I've had to work on.  As one VP would often say, "You completely underestimate yourself too often, you are way too hard on yourself. You usually have the right strategic answers out of the gate, but you spend too much time looking at every possible way to kill your own conclusions."   As I politely told him, "yes, because if that strategy is wrong and I don't find every possible hole in the strategy up front, then it is my ass".     I'm extremely self-aware of my abilities, so I have no problem telling someone "I don't know" or "I can't do it" rather than watching people pretend they can and fall short.

DK has it's flaws....good read.  http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-and-isnt/

Chicos has finally let us in on the simple secret. He is just really smarter than the rest of us. And he will be the first to tell you.

[mu03eng]

We studied DK effect in managerial work.  I'm sure you will find this ironic, but I've been rated as someone with too much self doubt, not inclined to go with my first instincts enough and looking for too much collaborative evidence.  Something that I've had to work on.  As one VP would often say, "You completely underestimate yourself too often, you are way too hard on yourself. You usually have the right strategic answers out of the gate, but you spend too much time looking at every possible way to kill your own conclusions."   As I politely told him, "yes, because if that strategy is wrong and I don't find every possible hole in the strategy up front, then it is my ass".     I'm extremely self-aware of my abilities, so I have no problem telling someone "I don't know" or "I can't do it" rather than watching people pretend they can and fall short.

DK has it's flaws....good read.  http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-and-isnt/

Your humility is only exceed by your good looks....and with that, I'm out on this

[Pakuni]

Sometimes satire just writes itself.

[GGGG]

Holy chit...did Chicos just post part of his performance review??? 

[rocket surgeon]

i just sit back and read-these topics and occasionally chime in.  this one, which i found to be very interesting by the way,  can't help but notice how "people" seem to be salivating and waiting for the right moment to jump all over chico.  then it's like a pack of hyenas...chico just dusts himself off and walks away or the topic ends up getting a padlock.       

[ChicosBailBonds]

Holy chit...did Chicos just post part of his performance review???  

Nah, just honest feedback I've received over the years.  I learned long ago that message boards and the proxy wall that is provided can change a person in that environment....I'm as guilty as anyone on this.  I'm different behind a keyboard than I am in the boardroom, on the phone, face to face.  Definitely a fault of mine and I see it all the time on ESPN, here, or pretty much anywhere where social interaction via the net takes place.  Again, big failing of mine.  I would guess that the vast majority of people that know me say I'm mild mannered, fairly quiet, certainly not a hot head, humble, etc.  Though it is funny that in actual performance reviews, "too nice" came up often and in my part of the world with what I was doing, that isn't always a compliment.  People in that role often have to live outside their own skin as it were.  Can be a challenge and certainly a stressful one at times.  One of the reasons I changed gigs after all these years.  At any rate, that isn't always my persona here and that's on me.

Work in progress.....try to get better, that's all I can do.  That's why I ignore certain people on here, ignore certain topics, or just bail out of some if I am in them.  Just not worth it anymore.

[mu-rara]

You guys realize that this is Chicos business right?  Any chance that any of you actually know more about this then he does?  This is addressed to anyone but Henry.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think Mr. Wheeler, who was appointed by Bambi, said it pretty well yesterday in a way that was somewhat deflective.

From the AP:
The issue of net neutrality is so highly technical and legally complex that even FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler -- who was appointed by Obama -- suggested that the president may have oversimplified things. In a statement issued Monday, Wheeler said applying Title II of the 1934 Communications Act raises "substantive legal questions," including whether that law would cover mobile devices.

[Lennys Tap]

Nah, just honest feedback I've received over the years.  I learned long ago that message boards and the proxy wall that is provided can change a person in that environment....I'm as guilty as anyone on this.  I'm different behind a keyboard than I am in the boardroom, on the phone, face to face.  Definitely a fault of mine and I see it all the time on ESPN, here, or pretty much anywhere where social interaction via the net takes place.  Again, big failing of mine.  I would guess that the vast majority of people that know me say I'm mild mannered, fairly quiet, certainly not a hot head, humble, etc.  Though it is funny that in actual performance reviews, "too nice" came up often and in my part of the world with what I was doing, that isn't always a compliment.  People in that role often have to live outside their own skin as it were.  Can be a challenge and certainly a stressful one at times.  One of the reasons I changed gigs after all these years.  At any rate, that isn't always my persona here and that's on me.

Work in progress.....try to get better, that's all I can do.  That's why I ignore certain people on here, ignore certain topics, or just bail out of some if I am in them.  Just not worth it anymore.

Chico - As one who has sometimes questioned your ability/desire to self reflect please accept my sincere congratulations. I think your post is insightful and even borderline courageous. Well done.

[GGGG]

I've worked in the Telecom industry for 15 years (and have other unique experiences to provide insight). I could write several long posts detailing both sides of net neutrality.

Here's the (not-so) concise version:
1. Data traffic is growing exponentially, and video comprises most of that growth.
2. Building out networks to support exponential data growth is expensive.
3. Video streaming/communications providers largely are forcing the increased network growth but do not pay for the costs of building out the networks. In other words, they are free-riding on the network infrastructure.
4. There should be some mechanism to recover these costs and provide better quality of service via charging. This can benefit consumers and already happens in many networks.
5. However, once you provide preferential treatment of some websites over others, a system of haves and have-nots is created by default. This can discourage innovation.
6. Companies pushing hardest for net neutrality are already established companies that free-ride on network infrastructure, which will also discourage innovation.
7. Government regulation and rate-setting is inefficient but the primary way to do net neutrality.
8. Without government involvement, huge geographic portions of the country will be left behind on broadband speed. The cost/benefit of providing high-speed broadband in Westby, WI isn't as strong as in Milwaukee.
9. It's easy to side with the net neutrality people, such as google and netflix, and it's easy to side against Comcast and Time Warner. Both positions are wrong.

This is a messy, gray issue where an inefficient government has to play a role and neither the service providers nor the content providers have particularly clean hands. It is too simplistic to view this as, "keep the internet free".

Unfortunately, this issue and thread are, and will further, devolve into your typical black-white, left-right politics bullsh*t. Speaking of which, I'd appreciate it if people did not quote Chicos.

Hey Henry...appreciate this.  After a full day of reading sound bites on Facebook, simplistically labeling one side against the other, this certainly adds a great deal of context.

[ChicosBailBonds]

A lot of litigation.....

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/technology/call-for-open-internet-sets-up-fight-over-rules.html?_r=0&referrer=

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Thanks for quoting Brand, he continues to not understand and I'm not going to bother...life is too short.  I will say, however, it has nothing to do with ego but common sense reality of the busy lives that people have.  You're talking about a populace in which almost 50% can't identify New York on a US map.  You can choose whichever reason(s) you wish for this.  Education.  Too busy.  Don't care.  Net neutrality a complex issue that the vast vast vast majority does not understand.  That is not being elite, and it certainly isn't holding someone in contempt....people only have so much time to understand their daily lives, let alone something this complex.  That's just the way it is.  Journalists can't get it right and when they can't, they are only passing on wrong information to the already misinformed. 

Not to get off topic, but that's exactly how I feel on the nickname issue. It's not as simple as it seems, and there are some layers that aren't fully understood.

[ChicosBailBonds]

AT & T to halt investment in broadband for now.  Makes sense, why invest or innovate and take those risks based on last fees days.  They will not be the last.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/11/12/att-ceo-comment-after-obama-statement/18915917/

[jesmu84]

AT & T to halt investment in broadband for now.  Makes sense, why invest or innovate and take those risks based on last fees days.  They will not be the last.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/11/12/att-ceo-comment-after-obama-statement/18915917/

Innovation and investment have always, and will continue to, occur in any markets, even in risky situations if the pay-off is there. If ATT feels things are beginning to change and they don't see it as the same lucrative investment it's been, fine. Someone will take their place eventually. There's a market there that needs companies and there is money to be made.

Granted, you are almost assuredly the expert on this board. But you post this and make it sound like a big threat. To the point it almost seems like extortion - "don't threaten us or we'll do things you don't like"

[MUsoxfan]

AT & T to halt investment in broadband for now.  Makes sense, why invest or innovate and take those risks based on last fees days.  They will not be the last.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/11/12/att-ceo-comment-after-obama-statement/18915917/

AT&T could start by innovating my Uverse Internet to be as fast as my 10 year old DSL service. Biggest mistake I ever made technology-wise was bailing on DSL for horrible Uverse