for those who think crean is a bad recruiter

[dwaderoy2004]

from a chat with John Carroll, from Scouts Inc., on espn.com:

Bob - NYC: Top 3 - 5 recruiters in your eyes?

John Carroll: In no special order, I'd say Tom Crean from Marquette, Rick Pitino and John Calipari because of their NBA pedigree, attract kids who want to get to the NBA. Ben Howland from UCLA is a guy who works hard at recruiting and has been able to, in his short time there, take his team to the Final Four. Billy Donovan might be the best recruiter in the country. He's young, won two Final Fours, has a lot of energy, and understands how to make players better. Another guy who does a great job is Tom Izzo at MSU. He gets the best players in-state to stay home and occasionally lands very good players out of state. Bruce Weber has done a great job at Illinois, getting four high-level underclassmen. Another guy to mention here is Thad Matta at OSU, who has done a great job locking up four of the best players in the country here for '08, and already has three commitments for the class of 2010. Two of the kids are in the top 10-15 players in the country.

[The Lens]

TC has lived off his recruiter tag for years but in reality the majority of his classes haven't been that special (what has been special is his prep work that puts kids in a position to succeed).  You want to know who is a good recruiter?  Quinn Snyder...that guy always has stacked teams of high profile kids.  Now he couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag but he got players.

To me a great recruiter is someone who brings in kids better than their school.  We really haven't had any player outside of maybe DJ where people say...wow how did he end up at MU (yes b/c of Wade's proximity and grades I'm not calling him a blow me away recruit).

[HarveysWallbangers]

How can you take his word for it when he rates Coach Crean ahead of Thad Matta?? Or Ben Howland? Or Donovan?!?! Wow!

If I were a team subscribing to the Scouts service for recruiting tips, I'd cancel my subscription!

[ChicosBailBonds]

How can you take his word for it when he rates Coach Crean ahead of Thad Matta?? Or Ben Howland? Or Donovan?!?! Wow!

If I were a team subscribing to the Scouts service for recruiting tips, I'd cancel my subscription!

Perspective.  Is it easier to recruit to OSU or MU?  When Thad Matta was at a school the same size of MU was he recruiting as well as Crean?  Let's compare apples to apples here.

Was Jim Tressel recruiting the same type of kids at Youngstown State as he is at OSU?  Same guy....different school....different access to athletes. 

I believe that's what the author was saying.

[HarveysWallbangers]

And frankly, how easy is it to recruit players to go to school in Champaign? Weber's had some pretty high profile misses, but we'd kill to have his backup signees. Calipari is stuck in CUSA and he's getting much better recruits than Marquette.

Sure, Donovan and Howland are coaching in virtual paradise, but come on.

You can't honestly think Crean should be mentioned in the piece.

[dwaderoy2004]

whether or not you think he belongs, and you are cetainly entitled to your opinion, the point is that this guy WHO GETS PAID TO FOLLOW RECRUITING FOR A LIVING, thinks crean is a pretty good recruiter.  he has slightly more credibility than you. 

As far as Illinois is concerned, they are a public school with huge resources and benefits.  furthermore, weber has only one good recruiting class in his time there, and that class is in 2009!  crean has had at least 2 monster classes, so if you're giving props to weber, you better throw them crean's way as well. 

Calipari is probably the best recruiter in the country,  no argument there...

[HarveysWallbangers]

Sorry, but if he thinks Crean is one of the three best recruiters in the country, he shouldn't be paid to offer his opinions on the subject. He's not even in the top 3 in the Big East. In fact, he's only the second best recruiter in Wisconsin.

[SqueallyDRyan]

"Billy Donovan might be the best recruiter in the country"


- you guys need to reread the quote.  He is not saying Crean is top 3. In actuality he is saying Crean is top 8.  The first 3 guys do to their guys in the nba or nba pedigree, and then he rattles off different reasons why the 5 others are good recruiters... c'mon guys    read

[MuMark]

What part of "In no special order" do some of you guys not understand?

He was asked a question and responded with a the first guys who came to mind.

All you can take from this is that he thinks Crean does a good job on the recruiting trail.

[Mayor McCheese]

Sorry, but if he thinks Crean is one of the three best recruiters in the country, he shouldn't be paid to offer his opinions on the subject. He's not even in the top 3 in the Big East. In fact, he's only the second best recruiter in Wisconsin.

Lets go back to comparing apples to apples... it is much easier to recruit to Wisconsin as it is to recruit to Marquette.  There are more sports, more notariety and just more money in the program.  Thad Motta at OSU is working with the highest bankroll in college sports.  Is it a mystery why schools like OSU and Florida are becoming power houses in both football and basketball?  No, its all about the $$$ if you have the money you can have more options to recruit kids.  Someone brought up the was Thad Motta recruiting the same kids at smaller schools where he was at, that is a perfect example.  Look at Bruce Pearl, at UWM was getting decent players, goes to Tennessee, boom outstanding players.  Is that recruiting skills?  No, thats the school.  John Calipari is amazing in my eyes, but then again, Memphis hasn't graduated a player in how many years?  That has to count for something

[Untucked]

Everybody puts too much stock into those recruiting rating services. It's easy to put Lebron James or Dwight Hopward at the top of your list, but after about the first ten there are a lot of misses on those Top 150 lists (some even in the top ten). All they rate them on is their offensive skills and their size. They don't take into account defense, the kid's attitude or work habits.

You can't truly rate a recruiting class until a few years down the road.

A few examples, in 2003, was Brian Butch (consensus top ten) a better recruit than Josh Boone (about #75)?

Dameon Mason was a much higher rated player (#50) than Jerel McNeal was (#100). Who turned out to be a better player?

I agree that Crean hasn't had the greatest track record on some of his recruits, but let's not knee jerk reaction to losing some of these prospects. What I'm getting at is, Shumpert could end up being a superstar or a bust, but don't put that much stock into his Top 25 rating.

Some coaches get labeled as a great recruiter (Crean), and that label just sticks to them, whether it's true or not (right Kevin O'Neill).

Just because you always get a lot of high rated kids, doesn't mean you are a great recruiter. Some of those schools sell themselves. Does anybody know what other "perks" these kids get offered?

Marquette is at least on the national recruiting stage now, and that's because of Crean.

[MuMark]

" Look at Bruce Pearl, at UWM was getting decent players, goes to Tennessee, boom outstanding players.  Is that recruiting skills?  No, thats the school."

Of course Tenn. didn't get those players before Pearl got there so it must not be the school right?

It all depends on your point of view.

Bruce Pearl is a good recruiter who is now at a school (and in a conference) that allows him access to players he had no chance with at UWM.

[tower912]

I won't insult anyone by listing which colleges the other coaches mentioned coach at, but take a good look at that list.   All of the other coaches are at huge state schools, nearly all have football teams that are ranked from time to time,  all are in states that are basketball/sports hotbeds.   None of these apply to our beloved MU.  Perhaps the source of the quote is referring to how hard and well he works to even get to the finals with some of these kids.   Maybe he is referencing TC's ability to find diamonds in the rough.  Once again, somebody on the outside looking in says something nice about our program and our fans rush to say how wrong they are.

[HarveysWallbangers]

"Once again, somebody on the outside looking in says something nice about our program and our fans rush to say how wrong they are."

This does seem to happen a lot and it could be a case of Marquette fans being a lot more familiar with the situation than people who are covering more than 300 programs. 

[MuMark]

'This does seem to happen a lot and it could be a case of Marquette fans being a lot more familiar with the situation than people who are covering more than 300 programs."

Or could it be a case that the national guy is unbiased and you are not? 

All this guy said was that he thinks Tom Crean is one of the best recruiters in the nation.

He didn't say he was the best.

A fan of Marquette just might consider this to be good publicity for the program.

For whatever reason you seem to be offended by it.

[HarveysWallbangers]

I'd just like to get a reporter capable of that kind of hyperbole to write about my love-making ability.

[augoman]

Actually, Kevin O'Neil was the one who put Tenn bball on the map..., prior to him coaching (and recruiting) there, the women's team and the football team were the draws, mens bball couldn't draw flys.  When he left, his recruits were just maturing and they had tremendous sucess.  He (O'Neil) was a great college recruiter; he took recruits from UCLA, and AZ while at MU.  I'd like to see similar performance today in the recruiting arena, however, I don't have a prob w/ TC being mentioned along w/ a dozen or so other guys as a good recruiter.

[MUCam]

HarveysWallbangers-

You obviously differ from the author in your opinion of Tom Crean, at least as far as recruiting goes.

Could you kindly post the credentials that lead you to believe that your opinion is worth more than the opinion of this author. For what its worth, I am not asking for points that support your opinion. Rather, I am asking for your personal credentials, so that I can decide whether or not to take your word as the final say.

Thanks in advance.

[muwarrior87]

he also said that Crean was a good recruiter for guys looking to make the jump to the next level. Wade is a star, Diener seems to be loved in Indiana, albeit he's only been there a few months, and Novak is said to be one of the favorite outlet men for T-Mac.  There are three guys from MU in the NBA under Crean's time as our head coach and a number of others playing around the world or in the NBDL.  He said Crean could get guys to the NBA and he has been able to do that.  Plus, being a relatively small private college, I'm proud to see our coach being mentioned in the same sentence as big name coaches at bigger name schools.  For gosh sakes, most of the UW schools have larger student bodies than MU. We aren't a big school and don't have a laundry list of success like Duke so I can see why he would lump Crean in with the rest of these coaches.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Perhaps somebody can print some evidence of Crean being a top notch recruiter using next year's incoming freshmen and our current freshman and sophomore classes.

Perhaps MUCam -- instead of picking on Wallbanger -- can start.

Thanks.

[MUCam]

PRN -

I'd love to start, but...

(1) Next year's class is not finalized, so it certainly wouldn't be a fair evaluation.

(2) At this point, I'll admit that Crean's recruiting results will likely end up being disappointing. You cannot miss out on (arguably) your two top targets and not be disappointed.

However, perhaps that should wait for another thread. This thread, if I read it correctly, was about one expert's opinion regarding Crean as a recruiter. However, when HarveyWallBanger decided to throw out his "expert" opinion to bash the author of the article, I thought to myself, "What are Harvey's credentials? What gives him the confidence to be so affirmative in his position?"

Problem is, people are so tied up in their own personal feelings that they can't be fair and objective. That, more than anything else, drives me nuts. It is fair to think Crean is not the end all be all. It is fair to criticize Crean. But, when one's criticisms are constant and without any sign of objectivity, then they lose any and all worth.

For what its worth, I think Crean is overrated as a recruiter. That said, I think he is much better, recruiting wise, than we have been in a long, long, long time. When was the last time we truly had a chance of landing a Top 25 player? Did we miss out? Yes and I acknowledge that second (or third) in recruiting is as good as last. It might even be worse. But, at least we had the chance. That, I can accept objectively, is an improvement from what we had seen for so long.

[jaygall31]

how can you give Calipari credit when he has to walk about 5 steps outside of his office to get the best of the best in the country?

[tower912]

I just realized, if Harveyswallbangers is the same guy who hangs out on jsonline with that name,  then we have a troll.   

[HarveysWallbangers]

What are you guys talking about? All I've said is that mentioning Crean with those other recruiters seems over the top (WAAAAY over the top).

For the guy who asked about my credentials, I can only cite 30 years as a Marquette fan. It seems to me that O'Neill was actually a better recruiter than Crean. Not a better coach -- a better recruiter. In fact, I don't even know where Crean got this reputation as a good recruiter. After all, isn't Harvard outrecruiting us at the moment? I seem to recall that even Bob Dukiet had some decent recruits -- until MU rejected them for various reasons -- a problem our current coach doesn't seem to have.

As for this guy who asked about "hanging out" at jsonline, I literally have zero idea what you're talking about. Where would I "hang out" on a website?

And frankly, I think the knee jerk reaction to my opinion on our recruiting -- and I don't post here very often -- is very strange.

[MUCam]

Frankly, the knee jerk reaction is to your knee jerk reaction. Here are your quotes:

"If I were a team subscribing to the Scouts service for recruiting tips, I'd cancel my subscription!"

"You can't honestly think Crean should be mentioned in the piece."

"Sorry, but if he thinks Crean is one of the three best recruiters in the country, he shouldn't be paid to offer his opinions on the subject. He's not even in the top 3 in the Big East. In fact, he's only the second best recruiter in Wisconsin."

"This does seem to happen a lot and it could be a case of Marquette fans being a lot more familiar with the situation than people who are covering more than 300 programs."

You want to have a fair and intelligent conversation, then have one. Spewing forth quips like the ones above, does absolutely nothing. I don't even know that the original poster agrees with the author of the article. The point of the original post is to show that at least some people out there think Crean is a competent recruiter. Blasting the Scout author for his opinion, and essentially putting yours on a pedestal does nothing for the sake of discussion.

Maybe you could try saying, "I have to disagree with the author for these reasons," rather than "if he thinks Crean is one of the three best recruiters in the country, he shouldn't be paid to offer his opinions on the subject." Maybe then, sounding somewhat reasonable, you would elicit something other than a "knee jerk reaction."