for those who think crean is a bad recruiter

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Maybe you could try saying, "I have to disagree with the author for these reasons,"

Get over yourself, professor. When did this place turn into English class? Maybe you can help Harvey out by creating a "Proper Posting Procedures" page on the Wiki.

It appears to me that the sensitivity factor is on the rise on this board!!

[MUCam]

Funny you should mention it...perhaps a proper posting procedures wouldn't be all that bad.

Since when does the internet allow us the right to be confrontational, stubborn and opinionated? Since when did being reasonable and understanding become a negative? Has it become taboo to have an intelligent conversation without resorting to subtle insults and irrational tirades? When did class get subtracted from the equation?

You don't think Crean is a good recruiter? You disagree with the author's opinion? Fine. Say it, state your reasons for your opinion, and move along. But this narrow-minded, melodramatic barrage of one-liners has become a tired old mantra.

I love the fact that HarveyWallBangers questions Crean, someone questions Harvey, and so in comes PRN to defend the poor and the helpless.

The real funny thing is, PRN, that whenever you have been pushed on your opinions of Crean, it has always come back to the same - I don't like the guy. Now that is objectivity (sarcastic and hypocritical insult intended).

By the way, I'll come off the high horse now, if you'll lend me a hand...

[Murffieus]

TC has had two very good classes and the both coincided with a special timing event---the first was his arrival as the new coach back in 1999----and the second event was the opening of the Al McGuire Center and becoming a member of the BE. His other classes have been mediocure!

[CWSKeith]

Maybe you could try saying, "I have to disagree with the author for these reasons," rather than "if he thinks Crean is one of the three best recruiters in the country, he shouldn't be paid to offer his opinions on the subject." Maybe then, sounding somewhat reasonable, you would elicit something other than a "knee jerk reaction."

This coming from the guy who said this:

HarveysWallbangers-

You obviously differ from the author in your opinion of Tom Crean, at least as far as recruiting goes.

Could you kindly post the credentials that lead you to believe that your opinion is worth more than the opinion of this author. For what its worth, I am not asking for points that support your opinion. Rather, I am asking for your personal credentials, so that I can decide whether or not to take your word as the final say.

Thanks in advance.

Which has really provides nothing -- not a damn thing -- to the thread.

Also, to the person who said Harvey's is a troll...  if it's the same HW who posts over at BTF, he most certainly is not a troll, but I guess it's easier to just say he might be a troll than to argue his points.

As far as what John Carroll said -- I find it histerical that he mentions Crean as one of the top recruiters.  I'm sorry, but he hasn't even pulled in ONE five-star recruit, yet he's a top recruiter?  And I don't want to make it seem like I'm slamming Crean -- I'm really not, I think the total package that he brings as a coach is above average -- but there's not a chance in hell I'd have him anywhere near my top ten college basketball recruiters.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You guys continue to not read what the author said...strange.

[Big Papi]

I have been very disappointed with our recruiting misses, especially this year but frankly, I don't remember a time when we have been in on so many top 100 players and going up against the big boys when we are not there yet.  Players wouldnt even sniff MU in the past actually mention us and are interested in MU.  Wade, Diener, Novak, Merritt, James, McNeal, Matthews, Williams and Williams.  All top 100 players when the only top 100 players I can remember after O'Neill is Cordell. 

Also while we did lose out on Shumpert we were in on him till the end.  When was the last time we almost ended up getting a top 20 recruit let alone just missing out.  Rivers?  Personally it sounds like a lot of old timers around here are living in the past and don't want to give TC his dues. 

I don't know if TC is a top 10 recruiter but he is closer to top 10 than the middle of the pack which some of you seem to be hinting at.  A good comparison would be TC against all the other private universities.   Few and John Thompson III might be the only coaches out there who have similar situations and might be better recruiters.  Thompson for sure considering what he is pulling in right now.

[bilsu]

What Crean is good at is identifying players that are not on the radar. The problem here is if the player all of a sudden improves like Shuppert, then the big name schools show up. The key here is to get the early commitment.

[ChicosBailBonds]

CW...who was the last Marquette head coach to pull in a 5 star recruit and which decade was that?


Crean has pulled in 4 star recruits, something that hasn't been seen around those parts also in many a moon.

[muarmy81]

but frankly, I don't remember a time when we have been in on so many top 100 players and going up against the big boys when we are not there yet.  Players wouldnt even sniff MU in the past actually mention us and are interested in MU.   All top 100 players when the only top 100 players I can remember after O'Neill is Cordell. 

Also while we did lose out on Shumpert we were in on him till the end.  When was the last time we almost ended up getting a top 20 recruit let alone just missing out.  Rivers?  Personally it sounds like a lot of old timers around here are living in the past and don't want to give TC his dues. 

I don't know if TC is a top 10 recruiter but he is closer to top 10 than the middle of the pack which some of you seem to be hinting at.  A good comparison would be TC against all the other private universities.   Few and John Thompson III might be the only coaches out there who have similar situations and might be better recruiters.  Thompson for sure considering what he is pulling in right now.

Excellent post.
Again, we aren't Duke, UNC, or UCLA and just 5-8 years ago we would never even have fathomed being in contention for top 100 recruits.  This is a learning process and as the program gets better (Under Crean) the better the chances we have at landing these recruits not just being in the mix.  Just because we didn't land Shumpert or Swopshire doesn't mean Crean is a terrible recruiter.  How close would we have been with Deane?  (I'll give you 2 guesses but you'll probably only need 1)

[Murffieus]

I'll say this----TC gets my vote for hadrdest working recruiter in the nation. However, the bottomline hasn't been commensurate with that amount of effort.
I think he needs to reevaluate his approach to recruiting like any CEO would, when profit margins are shrinking!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

but frankly, I don't remember a time when we have been in on so many top 100 players and going up against the big boys when we are not there yet.  Players wouldnt even sniff MU in the past actually mention us and are interested in MU.   All top 100 players when the only top 100 players I can remember after O'Neill is Cordell. 

Also while we did lose out on Shumpert we were in on him till the end.  When was the last time we almost ended up getting a top 20 recruit let alone just missing out.  Rivers?  Personally it sounds like a lot of old timers around here are living in the past and don't want to give TC his dues. 

I don't know if TC is a top 10 recruiter but he is closer to top 10 than the middle of the pack which some of you seem to be hinting at.  A good comparison would be TC against all the other private universities.   Few and John Thompson III might be the only coaches out there who have similar situations and might be better recruiters.  Thompson for sure considering what he is pulling in right now.

Excellent post.
Again, we aren't Duke, UNC, or UCLA and just 5-8 years ago we would never even have fathomed being in contention for top 100 recruits.  This is a learning process and as the program gets better (Under Crean) the better the chances we have at landing these recruits not just being in the mix.  Just because we didn't land Shumpert or Swopshire doesn't mean Crean is a terrible recruiter.  How close would we have been with Deane?  (I'll give you 2 guesses but you'll probably only need 1)

Bingo!

I can't believe how short some people's memories are around here.


As somebody who isn't from WI, I can tell you that MU was NOWHERE on the national scene until Crean revived it. I was a big college hoops fan growing up (80's and 90's), and MU was never talked about amongst my group of friends. It just wasn't. Sorry. It also was never talked about on ESPN, or ABC, or CBS. They just weren't good enough. Sorry again.

I know people are going to pound the Kevin O'Neil drum, and I do think he was an excellent coach, he didn't stay long enough to have an impact on the national scene.

Crean may not be the best recruiter in the nation (how the hell do you determine that anyways?), but from where MU started, to where he has it now is impressive. Why can't people admit that?

We used to battle dayton for recruits... now we are battling UNC. There are no moral victories, but please recognize that the state of the program is much better now... and a large part of that is his ability to recruit.

[Murffieus]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

I dispute that.

[muwarrior87]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

I dispute that.

you dispute everything said abt crean that is positive. I dispute your head being screwed on straight

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

I dispute that.

you dispute everything said abt crean that is positive. I dispute your head being screwed on straight

Not true. I think he's a tireless worker and somebody who draws up some great game plans in the off season...serving us extremely well in the conference.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

I dispute that.

Really?

Who was better?

Hank?
Rick?
Kevin?

Look at the condition of the program when Crean started recruiting, and look at the level now. A lot of that has to do with his ability to bring in talent.

Oneil appeared be a a good recruiter, but it's hard to say what his long term impact was because his tenure was so short.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

well, I think that is all a matter of opinion, and that's where the problem lies.

Somebody asked John Carroll, from Scouts Inc (a guy who follows recruiting closely) who he thought were the top recruiters were. He cited that he thought Crean was near the top of the list.

Then people come on here blasting abut how Crean isn't a good recruiter... blah blah blah.

At the end of the day, Carroll provided his professional opinion. Now, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but everybody needs to realize that a guy that does this for a living has a better perspective on recruiting then most/all of us on this board.

Take his opinion for what it's worth... but realistically (given his knowledge) its worth much more then the majority of posters here.

[CWSKeith]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

At the end of the day, Carroll provided his professional opinion. Now, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but everybody needs to realize that a guy that does this for a living has a better perspective on recruiting then most/all of us on this board.

Okay, so the next time when watching ESPN that Jeff Brantley tells me if he could pick one guy he'd start his team WITH A CLOSER (!), or the next time Steve Phillips or Eric Young or John Kruk or Rick Sutcliffe or one of those other dolts says something completely idiotic, I should take what they have to say and trust it -- afterall, they get paid for their "professional" opinion, right?

That's arguably the silliest thing I've read here.

And Chicos -- the question wasn't comparing Crean to the rest of past coaches at Marquette, it was comparing Crean to the current crop of coaches all around the country in the NCAA.  So I don't see what, 'how have past MU coaches faired?' has to do with anything.

[Murffieus]

TC is great at PR----he's on the phone to the internet and TV reporters all the time-----he gets better reviews than he should as result!

[ChicosBailBonds]

CW  but comparing him to other coaches in the country is kind of silly.  They have football, their own arena, bigger budgets, better weather, etc.  It's not apples to apples.

That's why I asked what other MU coaches have pulled in 5 star recruits?  Or for that matter, what other coaches are waiting in the wings to come to MU and pull in 4's

[tonyreeder]

the "what other coaches are waiting in the wings" argument is tiresome.  It is not a question that can be answered by anyone on this board.  we have no idea who would apply for the job.  but the way you constantly refer to it makes me believe that you think if Crean were to leave that Marquette basketball would be screwed.  Marquette basketball is bigger that Tom Crean.  That absolutely irritates the hell out of me among all the Crean worshippers.  I appreciate what he's done absolutely but if he were to leave the basketball program will not fold up its tent and go home.   The administration at Marquette will not allow that and the job is a heckuva lot more attractive than people give it credit for.(and yes, again Crean is to be credited for that)

[Ready2Fly]

TC is great at PR----he's on the phone to the internet and TV reporters all the time-----he gets better reviews than he should as result!

And you know this... how?

Spycams?  Wiretaps?  Or are you hiding behind that "inconspicuously" over-sized plant in his office as you type this?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that TC is the best recruiter here since Al----but the issue is----is he a top 10 recruiter nationally?

At the end of the day, Carroll provided his professional opinion. Now, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but everybody needs to realize that a guy that does this for a living has a better perspective on recruiting then most/all of us on this board.

Okay, so the next time when watching ESPN that Jeff Brantley tells me if he could pick one guy he'd start his team WITH A CLOSER (!), or the next time Steve Phillips or Eric Young or John Kruk or Rick Sutcliffe or one of those other dolts says something completely idiotic, I should take what they have to say and trust it -- afterall, they get paid for their "professional" opinion, right?

That's arguably the silliest thing I've read here.

And Chicos -- the question wasn't comparing Crean to the rest of past coaches at Marquette, it was comparing Crean to the current crop of coaches all around the country in the NCAA.  So I don't see what, 'how have past MU coaches faired?' has to do with anything.

Interesting point... and let me clarify my position.

John Carroll, from Scouts Inc works closely in the world of recruiting, so I trust his opinion more than most people because he does it professionally (he works with recruiting stuff everyday, not just 10min of internet research a day like some of the "experts" around here)

Comparing him to the analysts that you list above isn't accurate. Those guys are often more like mouthpieces for entertainment then they are true analysts. Look at guys like Olney, Gammons, Campbell, Kurkjen, Rob Neyer, etc. Those guys are fantastic analysts. Why don't you compare John Caroll to them? What makes you believe he's like Steve Phillips? I would compare him more to a true journalist because the majority of his communication is written, and not sensationalized like sportscenter or baseball tonight.

I'm not saying you should blindly believe everything a professional sportswriter says. But, let's be honest. NOBODY on this board has the knowledge about college recruiting that John Caroll does. We just don't. You may not like his opinions, but I'm sure he has a pretty good idea on what he is talking about.

Again, you may not agree with him, but for people to jump on to an internet message board and start spouting off about how he is wrong is silly. The guy was asked (in an interview) for his professional opinion. He provided it, and I for one am glad that he thinks so highly of our current coach. 

[Phi Iota Gamma 84]

The bottom line is where does he rank nationally in a combination of recruiting/coaching/etc. 

There is no doubt he has put the Warriors back on the map, has increased our profile among potential recruits, regularly in the top 20 national rankings, 3 recent players in the NBA.

I do not know if he is top 10 or not but I would say he is top 25 and MU has NOT had that since Al, and even though Majerus may a top coach now he was not when with MU

[CWSKeith]

Or for that matter, what other coaches are waiting in the wings to come to MU and pull in 4's

Again, this has nothing to do with the subject.  You're reading waaaay too much into something that isn't there.  I'm not calling for Crean to be fired, I'm not calling for them to bring in a new coach.  I'm making a simple statement -- Crean is not one of the best recruiters in the country, and even if you want to bring up stuff like football, private school, what have you, I'd say it's EXTREMELY difficult to put together the argument that Crean is, in fact, one of the ten best college basketball recruiters in America.

That's not saying he's not a good coach.  That's not saying he's a BAD recruiter.  It's saying he isn't one of the ten best recruiters in the country, nothing more.