Derrick/Jake/Juan v. Dawson/JJJ/Burton

[bilsu]

I think Derrick should start, but I also think Dawson should play more.

[NersEllenson]

I'll give you credit for being honest about wanting to see Derrick fail...but it's horribly disappointing - mind-boggling actually - to hear any MU fan say they want to see any MU player fail. 

The kid has been busting his a$$ for three years for Marquette and has always given 100% on the court.  He has never gotten in trouble or represented Marquette negatively.  To hear a "fan" say they hope such a kid fails just blows me away.

I want to see Derrick succeed, I want to see John succeed, I want to see Marquette succeed.  Your statement about wanting to see Derrick fail speaks volumes.

You make a lot of good points.  I probably should reconsider my statements and views, because as you point out Derrick is a great kid and represents MU well, and is just a kid.  He certainly is doing his best, and I probably shouldn't put my personal desires to see the team play better above supporting one of our athletes fully.  It would be great if he can take a big step up, and along with that, see the team make big strides.  Having said that, however, I do also believe there is being successful and a valuable contributor to a team, in a lesser role.  I guess at the end of the day, I just feel Derrick would be a great backup PG, who will give you 10-15 minutes of solid play - and to try to extract perhaps something that simply isn't there - 30+ minutes of playing time, and a major contribution - in hopes of better results - may also be doing the kid a disservice - as it is causing me and I'm sure many other fans frustration.

I've generally been one of the most supportive fans posting here, and have been accused of wearing the blue and gold goggles...and I've probably taken the negativity on Derrick too far.  Will try to remember the words my Mom once taught me - If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it all.  Easier said than done, however, when Marquette basketball is my absolute passion.

[jesmu84]

I don't think anyone wanted to see him fail initially. However after 3 and a half years of mediocre play, we have come to the realization he is not the man for the job. It's obvious that Many of us feel that he is not who we want running our team and by hoping he fails it could hopefully lead to change. Fair or not that is the reality of the situation. I wish no ill will towards him as he seems like a great representative of Marquette. I think a majority of the anti Derrick crowd have big aspirations for Marquette basketball and we know he will not get us there so we cling to the hope for someone else to become our PG. Personal attacks on his character are stupid, but discussing his basketball shortcomings is fair game just as it is with any other player.

I understand the frustration. As an ardent supporter of Derrick (and someone who would love for Dawson to succeed), I am also frustrated by his lack of ability. It is what it is. IMO, however, RIGHT NOW, Dawson doesn't seem to be able to be any better overall (I don't think it's a question Dawson is likely a better scorer). I understand that you may want Derrick to fail big so that change will occur (be it Dawson, Mayo, whoever), but wouldn't the better (for the team and players) mentality be to want Buzz to realize Derrick's shortcomings and adjust accordingly rather than Derrick to fail (and thus hurt MU bball even more)?

[GooooMarquette]

You make a lot of good points.  I probably should reconsider my statements and views, because as you point out Derrick is a great kid and represents MU well, and is just a kid.  He certainly is doing his best, and I probably shouldn't put my personal desires to see the team play better above supporting one of our athletes fully.  It would be great if he can take a big step up, and along with that, see the team make big strides.  Having said that, however, I do also believe there is being successful and a valuable contributor to a team, in a lesser role.  I guess at the end of the day, I just feel Derrick would be a great backup PG, who will give you 10-15 minutes of solid play - and to try to extract perhaps something that simply isn't there - 30+ minutes of playing time, and a major contribution - in hopes of better results - may also be doing the kid a disservice - as it is causing me and I'm sure many other fans frustration.

I've generally been one of the most supportive fans posting here, and have been accused of wearing the blue and gold goggles...and I've probably taken the negativity on Derrick too far.  Will try to remember the words my Mom once taught me - If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it all.  Easier said than done, however, when Marquette basketball is my absolute passion.

Peace, bro.

Go Marquette!

[dgies9156]

I understand the frustration. As an ardent supporter of Derrick (and someone who would love for Dawson to succeed), I am also frustrated by his lack of ability. It is what it is. IMO, however, RIGHT NOW, Dawson doesn't seem to be able to be any better overall (I don't think it's a question Dawson is likely a better scorer). I understand that you may want Derrick to fail big so that change will occur (be it Dawson, Mayo, whoever), but wouldn't the better (for the team and players) mentality be to want Buzz to realize Derrick's shortcomings and adjust accordingly rather than Derrick to fail (and thus hurt MU bball even more)?

For most of the season, I've stayed out of this debate. I don't know what goes on in practice and I'm guessing most posters in this room don't either.

What I will say is this: We win as a team. We lose as a team. If Derrick can't shoot, somebody should be picking up for him. I generally don't see that. To pin our current problems on Derrick is JUST WRONG. He may not be what we, Buzz or even he wants to be, but at some point we have to acknowledge that the team isn't getting us to where we need to be.

Yesterday against Seton Hall was a good example. Derrick wasn't expecting a press and got trapped into turnovers. The thing that was evident is as the situation developed, where was the rest of the team? Did anyone have the innate sense to rush up and help him out? I didn't see it on my TV, if they did.

We had a great first half yesterday and then held on for dear life. You knew that there would be adjustments by the Pirates for the second half, but we came out looking very average and barely able to finish. If their guard hadn't had a brain cramp, who knows. The key word though, is "we."  There is some cohesiveness that is missing among our team and I'm not sure a component switch-out will make THAT much difference. Not the way things have gone so far.

[MU82]

I don't think anyone wanted to see him fail initially. However after 3 and a half years of mediocre play, we have come to the realization he is not the man for the job.

So this is what Derrick is up against: Some are blaming him for mediocre play a full year before he even stepped foot on campus!

[BallBoy]

I don't think anyone wanted to see him fail initially. However after 3 and a half years of mediocre play, we have come to the realization he is not the man for the job. It's obvious that Many of us feel that he is not who we want running our team and by hoping he fails it could hopefully lead to change. Fair or not that is the reality of the situation. I wish no ill will towards him as he seems like a great representative of Marquette. I think a majority of the anti Derrick crowd have big aspirations for Marquette basketball and we know he will not get us there so we cling to the hope for someone else to become our PG. Personal attacks on his character are stupid, but discussing his basketball shortcomings is fair game just as it is with any other player.

I think the majority of the anti-Derrick crowd base it on the hope that Dawson "could be" better and not on whether or not that he is.  If Derrick plays bad enough then Buzz will have to play Dawson and Marquette will turn it around because Dawson will be the second coming.  Other than the fact Buzz prefers playing seniors vs. than winning games there isn't anything that shows Dawson is in fact "better."  I do not believe that he is otherwise he would be playing more because I believe Buzz does want to win. 

Here are my thoughts on Dawson:

• The is nothing which shows the offense runs better with him in.  He has taken 20 shots of which 2/3 are from three.  This indicates he isn't a drive and dish guy but that someone else creating a shot for him.
• His 2P%, 3P%, and FT% doesn't indicate that he is better offensively.  Though he has only shot 2 FT all year which indicates again he isn't a driver
• For as much people talking about Derrick not handling the pressure defense, Dawson hasn't either.  In games he has played, the ball is usually not in his hands when the ball is brought up the court.

At the end of the day, I think Derrick Wilson shooting better/more is just as good an outcome as Dawson stepping into the D1 point guard and doing it.  I don't think that would satisfy the anti-derrick crowd. 

I think there are big gaps on this team including Derrick, Gardner, Mayo, and Jamil Wilson.  I don't agree that you can say Vander for Mayo was an even trade and everyone else is the same so it has to be Derrick's fault. 

[Aughnanure]

Juan? No. Burton? No. JJJ? No.

Play Thomas and Mayo together as much as possible. Best two shooters. Mayo is a threat to slash. Spreads the floor out best to make up for any deficiencies of Derrick/Dawson.

[forgetful]

Juan? No. Burton? No. JJJ? No.

Play Thomas and Mayo together as much as possible. Best two shooters. Mayo is a threat to slash. Spreads the floor out best to make up for any deficiencies of Derrick/Dawson.

I agree.  I like Thomas and Mayo on the floor together.  Think it gives us our best chance to win.  But with that lineup Jamil and Gardner/Otule need to box out and be rebounding beasts.

[NersEllenson]

I think the majority of the anti-Derrick crowd base it on the hope that Dawson "could be" better and not on whether or not that he is.  If Derrick plays bad enough then Buzz will have to play Dawson and Marquette will turn it around because Dawson will be the second coming.  Other than the fact Buzz prefers playing seniors vs. than winning games there isn't anything that shows Dawson is in fact "better."  I do not believe that he is otherwise he would be playing more because I believe Buzz does want to win. 

Here are my thoughts on Dawson:

• The is nothing which shows the offense runs better with him in.  He has taken 20 shots of which 2/3 are from three.  This indicates he isn't a drive and dish guy but that someone else creating a shot for him.
• His 2P%, 3P%, and FT% doesn't indicate that he is better offensively.  Though he has only shot 2 FT all year which indicates again he isn't a driver
• For as much people talking about Derrick not handling the pressure defense, Dawson hasn't either.  In games he has played, the ball is usually not in his hands when the ball is brought up the court.

At the end of the day, I think Derrick Wilson shooting better/more is just as good an outcome as Dawson stepping into the D1 point guard and doing it.  I don't think that would satisfy the anti-derrick crowd. 

I think there are big gaps on this team including Derrick, Gardner, Mayo, and Jamil Wilson.  I don't agree that you can say Vander for Mayo was an even trade and everyone else is the same so it has to be Derrick's fault. 

What you seem to have a hard time grasping is the relevance of the sample size pertaining to the two players.  It is highly unlikely you are going to see a significant upward trajectory from Derrick as we have 2.5 years of data, and a ton of minutes this year.  Dawson, has only been in the program for 6 months, and his numbers are virtually on par with Derrick.  And, it is really hard to put up any kind of numbers when half of your 104 minutes came in 2-3 minute stints, and in those stints being played off the ball bizarrely.  My hypothesis simply is that Dawson's ceiling is higher, and it should be explored at least 20 minutes a game, as the "fall off" if any, is razor thin.

[BallBoy]

What you seem to have a hard time grasping is the relevance of the sample size pertaining to the two players.  It is highly unlikely you are going to see a significant upward trajectory from Derrick as we have 2.5 years of data, and a ton of minutes this year.  Dawson, has only been in the program for 6 months, and his numbers are virtually on par with Derrick.  And, it is really hard to put up any kind of numbers when half of your 104 minutes came in 2-3 minute stints, and in those stints being played off the ball bizarrely.  My hypothesis simply is that Dawson's ceiling is higher, and it should be explored at least 20 minutes a game, as the "fall off" if any, is razor thin.

No. I have a much larger sample size than you want to include because it doesn't help your narrative.  How many freshman play significant minutes their freshman year?  Not many.  How many come from a small schools in the middle of nowhere? Even fewer. How many come from players that were not heavily recruit and were not in the Top 100?  Even fewer.  How many practice minutes has Buzz seen and said he would prefer to ride with Derrick?  That sample size is much larger than the 104 minutes. 

I get that you feel that there is little downside but you don't have a sample size which shows you how bad that could get and until you do then Dawson is always going to be the man.  I have also seen Dawson in game with actual facts which you have failed to evaluate him with because you have been proven to exaggerate his accomplishments. The only fact you base your evaluation is that he is not Derrick Wilson.

[NersEllenson]

No. I have a much larger sample size than you want to include because it doesn't help your narrative.  How many freshman play significant minutes their freshman year?  Not many.  How many come from a small schools in the middle of nowhere? Even fewer. How many come from players that were not heavily recruit and were not in the Top 100?  Even fewer.  How many practice minutes has Buzz seen and said he would prefer to ride with Derrick?  That sample size is much larger than the 104 minutes. 

I get that you feel that there is little downside but you don't have a sample size which shows you how bad that could get and until you do then Dawson is always going to be the man.  I have also seen Dawson in game with actual facts which you have failed to evaluate him with because you have been proven to exaggerate his accomplishments. The only fact you base your evaluation is that he is not Derrick Wilson.

It sure didn't get super bad against Xavier when Dawson got 17 minutes.  Only guy on team other than Burton with a non-negative +/-.  Derrick was -9 in the Xavier game, Dawson was 0.  Team played better when Dawson ran the point.  Period.  And in his first real action on the road in a tough place to play, against a good team.  Dawson hardly collapsed.  Okay, so it's 1 game.  I've seen 13 clunkers from Derrick already this year.

But hey, what do I know.  I really need to re-evaluate the conclusions I've drawn from Derrick's 450 minutes of play this year.  The team is doing great.  Our opposition doesn't even guard our PG.  Our head coach says we play 4 on 5 with him in the game.  And he plays him 30+ minutes a game.  Sure seems to be a tough road to hoe playing 4 on 5 for 75% of a basketball game.

We damn near beat X on the road, but come home and eek out a 1 point victory against a depleted Seton Hall team - in a game where Mayo goes off for 18? 

[Lighthouse 84]

Pick whatever helps you sleep at night.

And get back to talking about the game or the topic at hand today.

What I post don't pay my or your bills so what does it matter.

So how about that 2nd half... Nail biter or what?

I know this is a message board, but it amazes me some posters actually graduated from MU. Is it that difficult to use actual sentence structure, grammar and punctuation?  Most 6th graders can write better than some of the posters on here.  I know some will bitch about my rant, but it's hard to read some of this and think you went to the same university I graduated from as well. Oh, and this was typed on an iPhone so don't use that as an excuse.

[NersEllenson]

I know this is a message board, but it amazes me some posters actually graduated from MU. Is it that difficult to use actual sentence structure, grammar and punctuation?  Most 6th graders can write better than some of the posters.  I know some will bitch about my rant, but it's hard to read some of this and think you went to the same university I graduates from as well.

I imagine a tongue in cheek sense of humor.   

[Lighthouse 84]

I imagine a tongue in cheek sense of humor.   

iPhone Ners. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think this thread turned into couples' counseling. But I think it worked....on the reasonable posters. The peanut gallery will be back next game and nothing will have changed most likely

[NersEllenson]

I think this thread turned into couples' counseling. But I think it worked....on the reasonable posters. The peanut gallery will be back next game and nothing will have changed most likely

I agree.  Hopefully you guys come around one of these games.   

[Dreadman24]

I know u guys dislike me because I speak my mind but i have to say the  worst starting pg in the history of the Big East conference has to be Derrick Wilson.

[GGGG]

I know u guys dislike me because I speak my mind but i have to say the  worst starting pg in the history of the Big East conference has to be Derrick Wilson.

No we dislike you because you have devolved into nothing but a f*cking troll.

[Dreadman24]

Worst starting backcourt in the big east has to be Joke Thomas and Derrick Wilson

[Dreadman24]

No we dislike you because you have devolved into nothing but a f*cking troll.

Im more of a fan than u will ever be sir

[Dreadman24]

No we dislike you because you have devolved into nothing but a f*cking troll.

my f*cking car is decked out in Marquette gold and blue. Man come again

[Dreadman24]

if anyone don't like my comments do me a favor and IGNORE me

[Newsdreams]

^Ok 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Resisting....urge....to feed....the troll