Derrick/Jake/Juan v. Dawson/JJJ/Burton

[jesmu84]

Pick whatever helps you sleep at night.

And get back to talking about the game or the topic at hand today.

What I post don't pay my or your bills so what does it matter.

So how about that 2nd half... Nail biter or what?

Well, considering that's not the subject of this thread....

[NersEllenson]

Ah, I knew you'd be here with this after the game.  Tell me, where were the other players on the court when we faced the pressure.  It was Derrick and Jamil and.....nobody.  The other guys have to come back to the ball.  Poor coaching or poor execution, take your pick.  But of course, John Magic Dawson would have not had any issues whatsoever handling it I am sure, right?

Well if your PG is confident with the ball - say James, Diener, or Tony Miller - they actually push the ball against the press.  Derrick - ultra tentative and easy to trap.  Derrick is straight line player.  Speed Derrick up and its gonna become turnover city.  Derrick brought those traps upon himself.

Just watch and see what happens when Derrick gets sped up, or tries to push the ball in transition - its shaky.  The reason we don't have a fast break game this year, is because Derrick isn't good playing at full pace.  He's methodical and robotic.

I'm sure Buzz's press break strategy hasn't changed over the years - today, we see full court press on 4 possessions and turn it over 2 times.  Not good.

[jesmu84]

Well is your PG is confident with the ball - say James, Diener, or Tony Miller - they actually push the ball against the press.  Derrick - ultra tentative and easy to trap.  Derrick is straight line player.  Speed Derrick up and its gonna become turnover city.  Derrick brought those traps upon himself.

Just watch and see what happens when Derrick gets sped up, or tries to push the ball in transition - its shaky.  The reason we don't have a fast break game this year, is because Derrick isn't good playing at full pace.  He's methodical and robotic.

I'm sure Buzz's press break strategy hasn't changed over the years - today, we see full court press on 4 possessions and turn it over 2 times.  Not good.

Agreed.

[Milkshakes]

The problem with the Derrick/Jake/Juan trio is really not one of them individually. They all have some strengths. However, none of them score and I include Jake in that for the most part. If two or three of them are on the floor at the same time the other team has such an easy time defending. If you only have to defend two guys, well enough said. The freshman all have plenty of freshman faults but they should get more time mixed in just to keep the other team's defense honest.

[GooooMarquette]

Great post TAMUEagle.

Like you, I fall into the Derrick/Jake/Juan crowd, but I am happy when the frosh do well. I jumped into Sultan's thread the other day acknowledging the nice game by Dawson against X...and yet after a nice game today by Derrick (8 pts, 4 ast, 1 TO), so many people focus on the 1 TO. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

Great post TAMUEagle.

Like you, I fall into the Derrick/Jake/Juan crowd, but I am happy when the frosh do well. I jumped into Sultan's thread the other day acknowledging the nice game by Dawson against X...and yet after a nice game today by Derrick (8 pts, 4 ast, 1 TO), so many people focus on the 1 TO. 

Ditto.  It's really kind of sad that after a pretty good game by him there are still the same cast of characters dumping on the kid.  He's the designated whipping boy this year for sure.

[connie]

I guess for now I am on team Jake/Derrick/Juan--but not by much.  JJJ didn't help his case much today, and seeing Jake's block has me so surprised I am probably not capable of honest evaluation.  I attribute the frustration to the fact that J/D/J are really role players.  If we had someone that stepped up their game this year and turned into a stud we could much more easily accept their individual limitations.  I love what I see out of Deonte, and this week Dawson has looked good in his limited minutes.  I don't think we can expect much more improvement from J/D/J, and a 1 point win at home over Seton Hall has me thinking that we will be seeing more of the freshmen as the year unfolds.

[bilsu]

I am really to the point where I do not feel like posting anymore. I am just sick of our players being attack by our so called fans. I love it when MU wins and I hate it when we lose, but in the end I understand it is just a game. I have never seen Jake or Derrick not try to do their best on the floor.  I will always back the players that give 100% no matter what their skill level is.

[Superfan]

I am as loyal a fan as there is and have been a ardent supporter since the late 70s.  What frustrates me immensely is that Derrick has proven that he can't effectively play PG.  We have no chance of winning with him.  Watch him consistently bring the ball up the court and he acts like the 3 point line is a brick wall.  No penetration, no outside shot, no free throw shooting, limited assists, etc. etc.  Let's face reality; we aren't going to the big dance this year.  Give Dawson some meaningful minutes and stop pulling him.  Derrick is the worst PG we have had in 30+ years. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

I am really to the point where I do not feel like posting anymore. I am just sick of our players being attack by our so called fans. I love it when MU wins and I hate it when we lose, but in the end I understand it is just a game. I have never seen Jake or Derrick not try to do their best on the floor.  I will always back the players that give 100% no matter what their skill level is.

Great post.  I agree completely.  I'm not sure what's more frustrating to me, watching us lose or reading the crap that retards post on here.  I need to stay out of the game threads...

[Superfan]

Thicken your skin.  We don't have the right to complain about a player's performance?  What gets us going is the frustration that our best players are benched and the young, highly recruited players are sitting.  Our starting backcourt is not D1 worthy.  A year ago who would have imagined this backcourt.  I realize Vander's loss was unexpected and Duane injury was tragic but we have other options.

[connie]

Great post.  I agree completely.  I'm not sure what's more frustrating to me, watching us lose or reading the crap that retards post on here.  I need to stay out of the game threads...

Yeah, wouldn't want to resort to use words like "retard" to affirm my superiority on an internet fan message board!   Lighten up, Francis.

[MU82]

I am not in either of these "camps." I just want the players on the floor who are most likely to help us win.

I defend Buzz's decision not to give Dawson big minutes because I am giving our S16-S16-E8 coach the benefit of the doubt that he's seen these kids in practice for hours every day for weeks and weeks and he has a little better idea than I or the rest of us interwebbers do.

But I want Dawson to succeed when he is in there, as I want all of our guys to succeed.

It didn't take a basketball savant to know that PG was going to be our weakness this season unless Duane Wilson could come in as a freshman and be even better than advertised.

Unfortunately, Derrick has been precisely what many of us thought he would be. Am I glad he didn't exceed expectations just so I can say "I told you so"? No I am not. I wish he would have proved me wrong, just as I was thrilled last season when Vander (and eventually Lockett) proved me wrong.

I think it is completely fair for fans to go on a fan chat board and criticize the coach and criticize foolish play, lack of hustle, seeming indifference or other bad displays by the players. But I think most of us are smart enough to know when it's an over-the-top thing. Calling Buzz an idiot or Juan a waste or Derrick the worst player in Marquette history adds nothing to the conversation.

I have tried not to personally criticize Derrick. It is not his fault that his skill set is what it is. It is Buzz's fault -- and maybe the fault of some things beyond Buzz's control (Vander's departure, Duane's injury) -- that Derrick is a 35-minute PG.

I don't have to be in the Dawson-over-Derrick camp to say that I'd like to see Dawson play a little more because the Derrick thing just ain't working. But when Dawson doesn't play a little more, I don't react by wanting to fire the coach as a few here do.

Instead, I actually give Buzz credit for taking Derrick out of the game in the closing minute. It can't be easy for him to do because he loves Derrick and he must know it humiliates Derrick that the starting PG on the preseason Big East favorite can't be on the floor in the exact kind of situation a team needs to be led by its PG. But, loyalty be damned, Buzz wants to win, just as we all do.

I want to enjoy watching the team play, and naturally as a fan/alum my enjoyment level is increased when the team wins. That's the only camp I'm in.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Thicken your skin.  We don't have the right to complain about a player's performance?  What gets us going is the frustration that our best players are benched and the young, highly recruited players are sitting.  Our starting backcourt is not D1 worthy.  A year ago who would have imagined this backcourt.  I realize Vander's loss was unexpected and Duane injury was tragic but we have other options.

Read the OP. The point isn't that the players are being criticized, it is that even when they are good, it is overlooked or passed off as luck and the criticism continues. It is to the point were some have posted celebratory posts when one of their disliked player makes a mistake. You gotta take the bad with the good and vice versa.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Great post.  I agree completely.  I'm not sure what's more frustrating to me, watching us lose or reading the crap that retards post on here.  I need to stay out of the game threads...

Wow pretty classy...call people retards because they have views that differ from yours. That's a pretty douchey thing to do. Did you ride the short bus when you were a kid?

[Wojo'sMojo]

Read the OP. The point isn't that the players are being criticized, it is that even when they are good, it is overlooked or passed off as luck and the criticism continues. It is to the point were some have posted celebratory posts when one of their disliked player makes a mistake. You gotta take the bad with the good and vice versa.

I think part of the issue is the pro Derrick crowd exaggerates his performance and spins it in a more positive light than what is reality. The he had a good game today analysis...is that really accurate? Honestly watching the game today would you say he played good today? I would say he played fair today. I don't think he was a net positive or negative, just average. To think everyone on a message board is going to be positive all the time with the year we are having is absurd.

[GooooMarquette]

I think part of the issue is the pro Derrick crowd exaggerates his performance and spins it in a more positive light than what is reality. The he had a good game today analysis...is that really accurate? Honestly watching the game today would you say he played good today? I would say he played fair today. I don't think he was a net positive or negative, just average. To think everyone on a message board is going to be positive all the time with the year we are having is absurd.

With all due respect, the anti-Derrick crowd does the same for Dawson.  He was 2-7 the other night with one rebound and two assists, and consistently let Christian get to the hoop for easy layups...and some people were ready to anoint him as the starter.  They kept talking about the threes that "almost went in."  If Derrick had the same type of game, you'd be ready to stick him at the end of the bench.  Heck - Derrick usually does better than that and you're ready to stick him on the bench.

I want Derrick to succeed...and I want John to succeed.  I gave John credit for the improvement he made the other day despite the defensive breakdowns...and yet today when Derrick played a really nice game, most people focus on the 1 TO he had instead of the positives, and conclude things like his game was "just average."

Try giving both players credit when they do something well.

[forgetful]

I do get frustrated with DG on defense sometimes i'll admit. But it's just because he could be such a good all around player if he worked a bit harder on D.

I have been critical of DG a lot.  For very similar reasons as you.  He has the talent to be great, but often times doesn't give the effort to reach potential.  When he has great all around games I speak well of him, when he doesn't give the effort I critique his effort.

I agree with TAMU 100%, I am thrilled when those I am critical of do well.  

I really don't like it when people are critical of Juan/Jake/Derrick, because they have offered MU a lot this year and have provided us with our best possibility to win.  They also are guys that give 100% of their effort every night.  All players have faults, to criticize the ones playing at 100% effort and focus is unfair.

I was thrilled when Dawson stepped up and argued that he clearly outplayed Derrick (for one night), because he gave everything when he was out there and did his job.  

I really love Mayo and think he can bring a lot to the team, just he hasn't always been 100% there as a team player.  That is a legitimate reason to critique him.  

It is the type of criticism many have used that offends me.  Calling players that are working hard worthless, should never see the floor...saying you hate them, ... etc has no value.  Saying that a player has a bad attitude, needs to work harder and get his act together, when they are not playing 100% is valid criticism.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I have taken the wait and see approach with Derrick this year and gave him the bennefit of the doubt moxt of the time. However, after watching todays game its pretty clear Dawson should get his shot. Derrick is good defensivly but he isnt good enough to where hes playing as many minutes as he does. I still like Juan and Jake has grown on me so long as he keeps shooting but Derrick has regressed since the Arizona state game.

[NersEllenson]

With all due respect, the anti-Derrick crowd does the same for Dawson.  He was 2-7 the other night with one rebound and two assists, and consistently let Christian get to the hoop for easy layups...and some people were ready to anoint him as the starter.  They kept talking about the threes that "almost went in."  If Derrick had the same type of game, you'd be ready to stick him at the end of the bench.  Heck - Derrick usually does better than that and you're ready to stick him on the bench.

I want Derrick to succeed...and I want John to succeed.  I gave John credit for the improvement he made the other day despite the defensive breakdowns...and yet today when Derrick played a really nice game, most people focus on the 1 TO he had instead of the positives, and conclude things like his game was "just average."

Try giving both players credit when they do something well.

First, Dawson was 2 of 6 against X, with the 6th shot coming at the buzzer from 30 feet.  Secondly, no, Dawson did not allow Christian to repeatedly drive and score on him.  Third, why people get on Derrick and not Dawson, is because we've gotten 16 games to see what Derrick can do in 30 minutes of play, and the "performance" is consistently about 3.5 ppg, 3 assists, on 50% FT shooting and 30% shooting from the field, and with a career mark of making 2, 3-point field goals in his almost 3 year career...and the team scuffling to a 9-7 record, while just narrowly escaping lowly Seton Hall at home.

Derrick has had every chance in the world to show what he's capable of, and its been awful.  I posted how Mayo's stats this year, are virtually identical to what Vander did last year.  We return ALL other players except Lockett and Cadougan - and are we really going to say Lockett is the guy who is the difference between this year's team and last year's team??  Not a chance.  The difference is Derrick playing Cadougan's minutes.

This is Buzz's most veteran team he's ever had at MU - more returning letter winners/years than ever before, and yet it is his worst team.  The unique talent that Gardner is, is essentially being wasted as a senior. 

[GooooMarquette]

First, Dawson was 2 of 6 against X, with the 6th shot coming at the buzzer from 30 feet.  Secondly, no, Dawson did not allow Christian to repeatedly drive and score on him.  Third, why people get on Derrick and not Dawson, is because we've gotten 16 games to see what Derrick can do in 30 minutes of play, and the "performance" is consistently about 3.5 ppg, 3 assists, on 50% FT shooting and 30% shooting from the field, and with a career mark of making 2, 3-point field goals in his almost 3 year career...and the team scuffling to a 9-7 record, while just narrowly escaping lowly Seton Hall at home.

Derrick has had every chance in the world to show what he's capable of, and its been awful.  I posted how Mayo's stats this year, are virtually identical to what Vander did last year.  We return ALL other players except Lockett and Cadougan - and are we really going to say Lockett is the guy who is the difference between this year's team and last year's team??  Not a chance.  The difference is Derrick playing Cadougan's minutes.

This is Buzz's most veteran team he's ever had at MU - more returning letter winners/years than ever before, and yet it is his worst team.  The unique talent that Gardner is, is essentially being wasted as a senior. 

The box score against X shows Dawson as 2-7, not 2-6.

Christian had three blow-by layups in the latter portion of the first half...after Derrick got his second foul, and while being guarded by Dawson.

That's not the point of this thread though- it's that even with Dawson's modest performance the other night, many of us in the Derrick/Jake/Juan camp gave Dawson credit for his gradual improvements.  Yet when Derrick played a better game yesterday than he'd been playing previously - most notably, taking (and making) jumpers that he'd previously been passing up - the Dawson/JJJ/Deonte crowd does nothing to acknowledge the improvement...and instead seems intent on focusing on the negatives - like the 1 TO he made in 36 minutes of running the offense.

Give credit where credit is due, even for modest improvements.  We did it when Dawson showed improvement the other night - why is it so hard for you to give credit when Derrick shows improvement?

[forgetful]

The box score against X shows Dawson as 2-7, not 2-6.

Christian had three blow-by layups in the latter portion of the first half...after Derrick got his second foul, and while being guarded by Dawson.

That's not the point of this thread though- it's that even with Dawson's modest performance the other night, many of us in the Derrick/Jake/Juan camp gave Dawson credit for his gradual improvements.  Yet when Derrick played a better game yesterday than he'd been playing previously - most notably, taking (and making) jumpers that he'd previously been passing up - the Dawson/JJJ/Deonte crowd does nothing to acknowledge the improvement...and instead seems intent on focusing on the negatives - like the 1 TO he made in 36 minutes of running the offense.

Give credit where credit is due, even for modest improvements.  We did it when Dawson showed improvement the other night - why is it so hard for you to give credit when Derrick shows improvement?

I'm not lobbying for one player or the other but context is important.

He was 2-7.  One miss buzzer beater end of 1st half on a forced shot (almost went in).  Another miss buzzer beater end of 2nd half.  So in actual offense driven shots 2-5, both 3-pointers.  That is a very solid offensive performance, especially because the other 3 misses were all in and out.

More importantly, the defense.  You keep saying Dawson bad because of layups, Derrick good because of 3 pointers.  That is ridiculous and doesn't look at the context. 

If when Dawson was in, the defensive design was to put ball pressure on and then have defensive help, he was playing fine defense when Christon was able to drive.  He ended up scoring because his help defense was not there on time.  If Buzz then realizes that we can't pressure Christon, because he is able to beat the help, you switch and deny drives.

Denying drives is what most of the 2nd half did.  That opens up nice 3 opportunities.  Which he made.  Both strategies failed tremendously well.  But both defenders would also have been playing equally well for the designed defense.  Unless you know from Buzz what the exact game plan was when each player was in, you have no metric to compare defensive ability from that one game.

[NersEllenson]

The box score against X shows Dawson as 2-7, not 2-6.

Christian had three blow-by layups in the latter portion of the first half...after Derrick got his second foul, and while being guarded by Dawson.

That's not the point of this thread though- it's that even with Dawson's modest performance the other night, many of us in the Derrick/Jake/Juan camp gave Dawson credit for his gradual improvements.  Yet when Derrick played a better game yesterday than he'd been playing previously - most notably, taking (and making) jumpers that he'd previously been passing up - the Dawson/JJJ/Deonte crowd does nothing to acknowledge the improvement...and instead seems intent on focusing on the negatives - like the 1 TO he made in 36 minutes of running the offense.

Give credit where credit is due, even for modest improvements.  We did it when Dawson showed improvement the other night - why is it so hard for you to give credit when Derrick shows improvement?

Fair enough - I was happy to an extent that Derrick took and made a few of the perimeter shots - baseline and just off the elbow.  It's better he shoot out there than not shoot at all, to the extent that defenses might* start to guard him a little more on the perimeter and that would help this team.

Having said that, I'm not going to lie - There is a good part of me that wants to see Derrick fail - as I'd hope with that, Buzz would eventually make the move that needs to be made - Dawson for 25 Derrick for 15.  I know that sounds crappy to almost root against one of our guys, yet I feel that the only way this team is going to achieve anything decent this season, is if Buzz makes the switch.  If he doesn't, I suspect we will be going to the NIT - which never in a million years coming into this season would I have thought we'd even be having a conversation about..

[GooooMarquette]

Fair enough - I was happy to an extent that Derrick took and made a few of the perimeter shots - baseline and just off the elbow.  It's better he shoot out there than not shoot at all, to the extent that defenses might* start to guard him a little more on the perimeter and that would help this team.

Having said that, I'm not going to lie - There is a good part of me that wants to see Derrick fail - as I'd hope with that, Buzz would eventually make the move that needs to be made - Dawson for 25 Derrick for 15.  I know that sounds crappy to almost root against one of our guys, yet I feel that the only way this team is going to achieve anything decent this season, is if Buzz makes the switch.  If he doesn't, I suspect we will be going to the NIT - which never in a million years coming into this season would I have thought we'd even be having a conversation about..

I'll give you credit for being honest about wanting to see Derrick fail...but it's horribly disappointing - mind-boggling actually - to hear any MU fan say they want to see any MU player fail. 

The kid has been busting his a$$ for three years for Marquette and has always given 100% on the court.  He has never gotten in trouble or represented Marquette negatively.  To hear a "fan" say they hope such a kid fails just blows me away.

I want to see Derrick succeed, I want to see John succeed, I want to see Marquette succeed.  Your statement about wanting to see Derrick fail speaks volumes.

[Wojo'sMojo]

I'll give you credit for being honest about wanting to see Derrick fail...but it's horribly disappointing - mind-boggling actually - to hear any MU fan say they want to see any MU player fail. 

The kid has been busting his a$$ for three years for Marquette and has always given 100% on the court.  He has never gotten in trouble or represented Marquette negatively.  To hear a "fan" say they hope such a kid fails just blows me away.

I want to see Derrick succeed, I want to see John succeed, I want to see Marquette succeed.  Your statement about wanting to see Derrick fail speaks volumes.

I don't think anyone wanted to see him fail initially. However after 3 and a half years of mediocre play, we have come to the realization he is not the man for the job. It's obvious that Many of us feel that he is not who we want running our team and by hoping he fails it could hopefully lead to change. Fair or not that is the reality of the situation. I wish no ill will towards him as he seems like a great representative of Marquette. I think a majority of the anti Derrick crowd have big aspirations for Marquette basketball and we know he will not get us there so we cling to the hope for someone else to become our PG. Personal attacks on his character are stupid, but discussing his basketball shortcomings is fair game just as it is with any other player.