The reality as I see it...

[77ncaachamps]

How do you sell a university which lies near the heart of an undistinguishable city and lacks the big school atmosphere.

Like Louisville? With the coach. 

Not to knock TC because I like what he has accomplished, I really do, but Rick Pitino, JT3 (and I predict that Rick Majerus if his ticker holds out) have the ability to transform schools into final four contenders regularly.  I think MU is and will be a threat to be a top-25 team under TC for the forseable future but without getting the "difference makers" on a regular basis it will not lead to more regular visits to elite-8 or final 4. 

Yes, regarding my Majerus comment, I am predicting here and now that SLU in a couple of years will be a sort of Gonzaga in their conference.  It will be a strong, regular top-25 team which makes a run in the tourney now and then. 

Agreed on Majerus. The dude lives, breathes, and preaches hoops. Furthermore, he IS a personality.

But I disagree on your Louisville comparison as a city and university:
- Louisville is the 17th largest city; Milwaukee is 25th.
- Louisville is located in the heart of hoops rabid Kentucky (and central to the IL-IN-KY hoops heaven)
- They have a great D-I football college program (as of recently)
- The University is about twice the size of Marquette: 22,000 to 12,000
- They're public, we're private

Some more interesting facts:
- U of L has more registered college license plates than the University of Kentucky (18,300 to 17,000); a fourfold increase since 2004. That's something Marquette doesn't have...
- The total sales of U of L merchandise has tripled since 2001, now ranking 27th nationally in sales, second highest in the Big East Conference and the third highest among all urban universities (Southern California and Miami).
- U of L currently fields 13 women's teams and 10 men's teams; Marquette has 11 varsity teams: M/W basketball, M/W cross-country, men's golf, M/W soccer,  track & field, M/W tennis and women's volleyball

Clearly, Louisville has much more than just Pitino to pump up its sports program. But I won't argue a personality as Pitino will help get the recruits in. As seen in the history of the Big East, the best coaches have the personalities to separate themselves from the rest of the pack: Massimino, JTII, Carnessecca (sp?), Boeheim, Calhoun, etc.

[augoman]

everytime I meet a Looville native in Florida, they tell me how lucky I am to have Wisconsin winter- real snow, rather than the cold, damp, dreary 7 month rain they have!  FWIW.

[Harrison]

Personally, I think it was great to see Crean work so hard on a recruit.  Being at his door step in a limo at 12:01 bringing him on MM with Dwade ...trailing him so hard etc.  All great and wonderful and necessary for MU to go up against the big boys.  Just one question why can't we put out that kind of effort for a big guy?   Was Shumpert all that necessary, I see next year's class as the one most necessary and with the best chance of signing great guards(ie playing time). Either way maybe he just really liked and wanted Shumpert, nothing wrong with that, but again why not all that effort for a big man.  We have signed 2 legitimate bigs in 9 years. ( merritt and mbakwe) it's dumbfounding...if we were not getting decimated in the paint than I could say, "Hey, it's unconventional (that is signing unknown bigs) but it works.  But it is clearly not working.  We have national title contending guards and NAIA bigs that have netted two first round flameouts.

[downtown85]

Personally, I think it was great to see Crean work so hard on a recruit.  Being at his door step in a limo at 12:01 bringing him on MM with Dwade ...trailing him so hard etc.  All great and wonderful and necessary for MU to go up against the big boys.  Just one question why can't we put out that kind of effort for a big guy?   Was Shumpert all that necessary, I see next year's class as the one most necessary and with the best chance of signing great guards(ie playing time). Either way maybe he just really liked and wanted Shumpert, nothing wrong with that, but again why not all that effort for a big man.  We have signed 2 legitimate bigs in 9 years. ( merritt and mbakwe) it's dumbfounding...if we were not getting decimated in the paint than I could say, "Hey, it's unconventional (that is signing unknown bigs) but it works.  But it is clearly not working.  We have national title contending guards and NAIA bigs that have netted two first round flameouts.

good question.  I don't know.  I would've thought that there were a couple of guys over 6' 7" tall who the coaching staff could have put the effort into.  Speaking about broken records, this is starting to sound like a broken record.  Every year we have the same question.

[Harrison]

Unfortunately, I think our unprecedented turnover in assistants has hurt us too.  Look at the affect Buzz has had on guys that he has developed relationships with over a 2-3 year period.  Same goes for HS coaches, an assistant get to know HS coaches in an area and develops a repoire or trust in how they have handled other area kids. At Mu a recruit may be recruited by numerous different assisatnts over a 2-3 year period.  That has to have it's disadvantages when compared to a scholl that has the same asst. coach develop a realtionship over time.  How many guys were our different asststants on and then those guys left.  It has to hurt.  Even look at Rabadeuax he is still with the staff but went from a recruiting to non-recruiting position so now his guys are being handeled by someone else.  Crean has had 2 very very nice classes and 7 not so hot unfortunately he has had 3 in a row below avergae when judged against our peers (BE).  Just like in 2004 and 2005 it is going to bite us in a couple of years.

[Marquette84]

Unfortunately, I think our unprecedented turnover in assistants has hurt us too.  Look at the affect Buzz has had on guys that he has developed relationships with over a 2-3 year period.  Same goes for HS coaches, an assistant get to know HS coaches in an area and develops a repoire or trust in how they have handled other area kids. At Mu a recruit may be recruited by numerous different assisatnts over a 2-3 year period.  That has to have it's disadvantages when compared to a scholl that has the same asst. coach develop a realtionship over time.  How many guys were our different asststants on and then those guys left.  It has to hurt.  Even look at Rabadeuax he is still with the staff but went from a recruiting to non-recruiting position so now his guys are being handeled by someone else.  Crean has had 2 very very nice classes and 7 not so hot unfortunately he has had 3 in a row below avergae when judged against our peers (BE).  Just like in 2004 and 2005 it is going to bite us in a couple of years.

So what is Crean supposed to do?  Turn down a basketball mind like Jerry Sichting because he's likely going to get another NBA coaching job in a year or two?

A couple of years ago, people criticized Crean because he didn't have assistants with deep basketball minds that could help him with coaching.  So he loads up on former NBA assistatants and former college head coaches--all of whom are better able to help with coaching, but because of their talent and accomplishment more likely to leave because of a better job.

So perhaps our helpful "fans" can point to the deep pool of candidates who can coach at a top-25, able to recruit the same, and are so completely unambitious that they have no interest in an NBA assistant or college head coaching job.

[bma725]

So what is Crean supposed to do?  Turn down a basketball mind like Jerry Sichting because he's likely going to get another NBA coaching job in a year or two?

Short answer, yes.  I brought this up on the other board a few days ago, and the numbers clearly point to better recruiting when you have assistants that stick around longer.

Using Scout's top 20 recruiting classes from last year, the average assistant coach has been at that particular school for 4.18 years, and been working for that coach for 5.01 years regardless of school.  The average assistant coach at MU has been there for 1.8 years, and in the whole of Crean's tenure the average coach lasts 2 years with him.

Take it a step further and look at at Rivals top 25 hoops recruiters from 2005 and 2006(I couldn't find 2007).  43 different assistant coaches made the list.  Those 43 coaches have been at the school where they achieved the ranking an average of 5.39 years, and in general they average 3.76 at all schools they've worked at.  23 of the 43 have been with their current school(where they got the ranking) for 5 or more years, and 3 additional have been there for 4 years.  In the entire history of Crean at MU only 3 coaches have ever even made it to the 4th year, and since Stephens and Horn left in 2003 the average amount of time a coach spends at MU is 1.6 years.

So perhaps our helpful "fans" can point to the deep pool of candidates who can coach at a top-25, able to recruit the same, and are so completely unambitious that they have no interest in an NBA assistant or college head coaching job.

I'll try find the list of names when I'm at home, but again using Rivals list, purely from a numbers standpoint, 28 of the 43 best recruiting assistant coaches in the country have never been head coaches at any level.  Two have only been coaches at the JUCO level and they left that to become assistants at major colleges.  There may have been one or two that had NBA assistant jobs at some point, I didn't really look for that.

It's not that you can't get good recruits and play winning basketball with assistant coaching turnover, but it makes the job much harder.  Having that much turnover requires head coaches to be much more involved in the recruiting than they are at other schools and that takes away from the time they can spend in other areas.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Bilsu, the flaw I see in your argument is based on who does the recruiting.  In many of those other programs you cite, the assistants do the recruiting.  When I worked at KU and IU, Williams and Knight almost never recruited and as such the assistants were key, so was the stability.

At MU, Crean does the recruiting as he's the stable constant. 

I believe you have to factor that into the equation.

[bma725]

Bilsu, the flaw I see in your argument is based on who does the recruiting.  In many of those other programs you cite, the assistants do the recruiting.  When I worked at KU and IU, Williams and Knight almost never recruited and as such the assistants were key, so was the stability.

At MU, Crean does the recruiting as he's the stable constant. 

I believe you have to factor that into the equation.

Crean comes into close the deal and he is the primary recruiter for the very top targets, but he's not doing a lot of the legwork with many of the recruits.  We know how important Seltzer was with Nick Williams, we know Buzz Williams was the key to Erik Williams and Fulce, Lazar Hayward talked about how much he liked Rab from his experience of Rab recruiting him, and Stultz's father has mentioned that Buckley is the MU coach recruiting him and that he has barely talked to Crean. 

Crean really relies on the assistants to do much of the early recruiting and then he comes in to close the deal.  The assistant does much of the selling of the program to the player, and it would seem that the longer the assistant is in the program the better equipped they would be to sell the player on the program's strengths.  Right now, the only guy with any real length of time in the program changed his job and isn't involved in off campus recruiting. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

My point is that he does much more than many head coaches at this level in recruiting.  There were some kids at IU that NEVER MET Bobby until they were already enrolled.

I'm not saying our assistants don't recruit at all, far from it.  My point is simply that Crean is out on the recruiting trail more than most head coaches are.

That being said, stability at those positions would be nice but I will never get down on a person that has a chance to improve his lot in life, the case with about 90% of these assistant coaches that have left.

[bma725]

My point is that he does much more than many head coaches at this level in recruiting.  There were some kids at IU that NEVER MET Bobby until they were already enrolled.

I'm not saying our assistants don't recruit at all, far from it.  My point is simply that Crean is out on the recruiting trail more than most head coaches are.

That being said, stability at those positions would be nice but I will never get down on a person that has a chance to improve his lot in life, the case with about 90% of these assistant coaches that have left.

But the fact that he is heavily involved is partly out of necessity.  He has to be there because he never knows when a coach might leave and then you'd be starting all over if Crean wasn't at least involved with the player.  With a more stable assistant coaching group, he wouldn't have to do that as much.  He could really focus on the primary targets, or the time could be spent working on player development, scouting, gameplanning etc. 

With the limited amount of time there is for a coach to do all of the things that need to be done, there would seem to be better uses for his time than covering his assistant's recruiting.

[Harrison]

"A couple of years ago, people criticized Crean because he didn't have assistants with deep basketball minds that could help him with coaching.  So he loads up on former NBA assistatants and former college head coaches"

- yes and then they left because he was maniacal and did not listen to them anyway...would you not leave too?

Chico's I think your 90% is a little high... other coaches have left with no job or a lateral move most of them after one year?  Hmmm I wonder why...oh let me add I have spoken to some of them.

Lastly, BMA is dead on correct.  And that was my point we might be on a guy as a sophomore and then the asst. leaves.  So we bring in sos anso and have him be the head guy on that recruit, well it may be a completely different dynamic.  BMA's correlation of tenure and success is not suprising whatsoever.  Not too mention thje fact that our recent assistan hires of Seltzer and Buzz are not from the area...do you think they have the Chicago connections or the NE connections that many of the long time BE assistants have.  No! it's impossible.  Now Seltzer and Buzz have pulled 3 3star recruits out of the South and that is decent but it is much more difficult to recruit out of those areas than the NE and Chicago. And BMA is right Crean needs to be more involved to provide continuity as an MU recruit might be recruited by 2-3 different assistants while he is in HS.  Do you think that helps our situation?   We need some continuity and Crean needs to quit whiffing when he steps in. Roy and Booby had long time assistants that could feel out the recruits and then have them step in and try to seal the deal.  Mu recruiting appears to be in a continued state of chaos.  Not surprising as a program tends to take the culture of it's leader.

[bma725]

One more thing that I forgot before.  Just look at the programs that these guys are coming from...Arizona, Ohio State, Georgetown, UNC, Memphis, Syracuse, UConn, Duke, Kansas, Villanova, Washington, Florida, Tennessee, Texas, Michigan State.....etc.  Yes, some are traditional powers, but you'll also notice that tehse are the teams that are consistently good, consistently at the top of power conferences, consistently going deep in the tournament etc.

If it works for them, why wouldn't you want to emulate it at MU? 

[coach85]

With Crean more involved in recruiting due to staff turnover etc., it puzzles me that he has not been able to deliver recruits from his native Michigan - usually a solid source of talent. Crean has to have relationships all over the state and yet, of late, MU is not even being listed as a factor with most top ranked MI high school players. Even DePaul has landed highly ranked MI native recruits Wilson Chandler and now Dar Tucker. When's the last time a MI kid was @ MU on a visit?  A grand total of what, 3 MI natives signed in Crean's years with only Grimm graduating ? To be fair, the depth of quality recruits from MI has not been as highly rated in the last year or two, but this has also been a time when the University of MI b-ball program has really struggled and would appear to have been less attractive for instate talent.

[HarveysWallbangers]

With Crean more involved in recruiting due to staff turnover etc., it puzzles me that he has not been able to deliver recruits from his native Michigan - usually a solid source of talent. Crean has to have relationships all over the state and yet, of late, MU is not even being listed as a factor with most top ranked MI high school players. Even DePaul has landed highly ranked MI native recruits Wilson Chandler and now Dar Tucker. When's the last time a MI kid was @ MU on a visit?  A grand total of what, 3 MI natives signed in Crean's years with only Grimm graduating ? To be fair, the depth of quality recruits from MI has not been as highly rated in the last year or two, but this has also been a time when the University of MI b-ball program has really struggled and would appear to have been less attractive for instate talent.

The last two recruits we had from Michigan were spectacular flameouts. Perhaps Michigan high school coaches have soured on Crean?

[whoffman]

We need an AD and soon!

[Harrison]

How does an AD pertain to this situation?

[muwarrior87]

If we're able to land quality players and have very good coaches, I think it can negate the fact that we may lose a top 50 guy to another school.  While it definitely helps to have top recruits, if you don't, the next best thing is to have solid recruits and a coaching staff that gets those recruits to play well in the system that the school runs.  Thats one of the reasons UW has been so solid under Ryan.  They land a few big names but a lot of their recruits just fit well into the system that Bo runs and that makes them a successful program.

[whoffman]

Harrison, who is TC accountable to?

[muwarrior87]

Harrison, who is TC accountable to?

the fans that will riot if the correct decisions are not made

[Harrison]

As much as I hate to say it Bo Ryan is 10X the coach Crean is.  Crean has his strengths no doubt. But as far as defense and in game excecution Bo is far superior.  Much of it may simply have to do with Bo's experience versus Crean's and that is understandable but Bo is a much better coach than Crean. And I hate Wisconsin, but he is really good.  Must take a shower now.

[bma725]

With Crean more involved in recruiting due to staff turnover etc., it puzzles me that he has not been able to deliver recruits from his native Michigan - usually a solid source of talent. Crean has to have relationships all over the state and yet, of late, MU is not even being listed as a factor with most top ranked MI high school players. Even DePaul has landed highly ranked MI native recruits Wilson Chandler and now Dar Tucker. When's the last time a MI kid was @ MU on a visit?  A grand total of what, 3 MI natives signed in Crean's years with only Grimm graduating ? To be fair, the depth of quality recruits from MI has not been as highly rated in the last year or two, but this has also been a time when the University of MI b-ball program has really struggled and would appear to have been less attractive for instate talent.

He does have Michigan connections from the days at MSU, and he was a part of bringing in the "Flintstones"(Cleaves more than the others), but he was also the "recruiting coordinator" for Izzo and that meant he did more out of state recruiting than the other coaches(like Stan Heath).  He was the one that got them Andre Hutson and AJ Granger out of Ohio.  He was the one that got MSU in early on Zach Randolph, etc. 

[🏀]

I think one of Bo's assets that really helps is his assistants stick around for a long time.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think one of Bo's assets that really helps is his assistants stick around for a long time.

He's only had 3 leave in the last 3 years right?   ???

[ChicosBailBonds]

The 90% number might be high but I think most have left for higher positions.

Off the top of my head

Buckley
Kowalczyk
Horn
Stephens
Wardle
the guy that went to Lewis as head coach (name escapes me)
Townsend
Prioleau
Sichting

All left for head coaching or better positions (i.e. 3rd assistant to 2nd assistant)



That leaves

Panagio....actually did leave to become a head coach but it was NBDL
Strohm....lateral move
Ellis....got out of coaching entirely (not a lateral move)
Schwab....health issues, out of coaching entirely (not a lateral move)


9 guys left for better jobs.  2 left for lateral moves...that's 82%...I was close.  2 others left for entirely different jobs out of college coaching.