Perspective

[MUSF]

No agenda.  We got lucky, that's ok.  Buzz knew it, every sportswriter in America knew it, most fans knew it.  I don't know why people are so afraid to embrace it.  Hell, sometimes you get a little lucky and win a game.  Nothing to be ashamed of, and certainly no agenda.  

If we had lost a game on a full court shot that was pure luck, would you say we didn't lose on a lucky shot?  If we lost a game the way Davidson did, would you say Davidson won the game or we lost the game....be honest.  Try it.  I'll bet 90% of this board would say we lost it. Let's make it even more interesting....if IU lost a game the way Davidson did, I'd bet 99.999% would say IU choked it. Or UW-madison. If IU had won the game the we did against Davidson, I'd bet 99.999% would say IU got lucky to win it. Or insert ND or UW-madison.  Be honest...try it.  All the people here saying we took it, or we won it, would be 180 degrees on the opposite side of the ledger if one of those other teams was in that situation. 

Funny how what team does what changes the perspective...perspective is the name of this thread....see how I tied that all up in a bow for you?

Yes, we got lucky. HOWEVER, good teams / players / coaches put themselves in position to be on the right side of luck more often. I would wager that there was zero self doubt inside of Buzz, Vander, or the rest of the team at the end of that game. That is why MU didn't "piss themselves" and Davidson did.

Could the shot have rimmed out? Sure. Could we have missed those threes? Absolutely. Were we lucky to win that game? Yes. All of that stated, the great ones will get lucky more often because they are prepared to be big enough for the moment. There is a reason that the Detroit Lions, Cleveland Browns, etc. are habitually on the wrong side of luck; they aren't winners.

So, I will acknowledge that we got a little lucky last year (just like we did in 2003, btw). I hope you will acknowledge that it wasn't stupid blind luck that put us in a position to win, and ultimately caused us to win. You make it seem like a crap shoot or coin toss. Our team stayed composed down the stretch and Vander had the skill and stones to take and make the final shot.

[Lennys Tap]

So, I will acknowledge that we got a little lucky last year (just like we did in 2003, btw). I hope you will acknowledge that it wasn't stupid blind luck that put us in a position to win, and ultimately caused us to win. You make it seem like a crap shoot or coin toss. Our team stayed composed down the stretch and Vander had the skill and stones to take and make the final shot.

Always luck involved in close games. The irony is when a Buzz team has been on the other side of that luck (DePaul, Louisville, Missouri, Washington, et al) I've never heard Chico attribute the loss to bad luck. We were unprepared, choked like dogs, pissed our pants, etc., but were never unlucky. We were most definitely lucky in 2003. Had we lost to Holy Cross or Missouri, TC's career path might have closely resembled Mike Deane's. But as much as I can't stand who Tom Crean is, you'll never hear me dismiss or denigrate that run as lucky.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, I will acknowledge that we got a little lucky last year (just like we did in 2003, btw). I hope you will acknowledge that it wasn't stupid blind luck that put us in a position to win, and ultimately caused us to win. You make it seem like a crap shoot or coin toss. Our team stayed composed down the stretch and Vander had the skill and stones to take and make the final shot.

And to be fair what I said didn't advocate that at all.  We had to hit some tough shots, etc, etc.  I concur, I acknowledged.  My point is simply to suggest that those thinking we "TOOK IT" are out of their minds.  We did some amazing things at the end to put us in the position we were in for the opportunity, but to win that kind of game you need a willing partner and Davidson played the role.  To be fair to Davidson, they didn't completely crumble, but they did just enough pissing of the pants (foul, missed free throw, turnover, etc) where the stars aligned and MU pulled it off.   Great job by MU and a thank you kiss to Davidson for pissing themselves.  Both had to happen.

[Silkk the Shaka]

For what I hope will be the last time, Davidson DID NOT piss their pants. They scored 1.25 points per possession down the stretch - 1-1 field goal (100%), 3-4 free throws (75%) and had one (1) turnover. We scored 11 points (3-3 from 3, 1-1 from 2) on our last four possessions (2.75 ppp). We were flawless. Had they been flawless, they would likely have held on (barely) - but there is a huge difference between pissing one's pants and flawless.

You should have that in a Word doc somewhere to save yourself the typing. You'll doubtlessly need it many times over.

[Lennys Tap]

And to be fair what I said didn't advocate that at all.  We had to hit some tough shots, etc, etc.  I concur, I acknowledged.  My point is simply to suggest that those thinking we "TOOK IT" are out of their minds.  We did some amazing things at the end to put us in the position we were in for the opportunity, but to win that kind of game you need a willing partner and Davidson played the role.  To be fair to Davidson, they didn't completely crumble, but they did just enough pissing of the pants (foul, missed free throw, turnover, etc) where the stars aligned and MU pulled it off.   Great job by MU and a thank you kiss to Davidson for pissing themselves.  Both had to happen.

Here is the rundown of the final minute of MU - Davidson:

1:02 J Wilson makes 3 point shot

                                                  :41  Davidson makes lay up

:27 Blue makes 3 point shot

                                                  :20 Davidson makes 2 free throws

:10 J Wilson makes 3 point shot

                                                   :07 Davidson Turnover

:01 Blue makes lay up

Marquette sores 11 points on 4 possessions, Davidson 4 on 3. We win, slight assist from Davidson. Eight months later you're still talking loudly and often about our luck and how they pissed themselves.

Contrast that game to Indiana's biggest win of last season, March 10 vs Michigan. The game that gave the Hoosiers the Big 10 title and saw Tom Crean go maniac on a Wolverine assistant coach.

52 seconds left, Michigan up 5, Indiana ball:

:41 Zellar misses lay up, makes tip in

                                              :38 Hardaway misses free throw

:30 Zellar makes 2 Free throws 

                                               :28 Burke misses free throw 

:14 Zellar makes lay up

                                                :07 Burke misses lay up
                                                :04 Morgan misses lay up

You want collapse? You want pissing yourself? You want lucky? You want the Big Ten title as a gift? Two turnovers (that's what the missed front end of a 1 and 1 is), two missed lay ups on the offensive end and two lay ups, a foul and a tip in given up by the defense. In 41 seconds. An epic, almost unprecedented heap of good fortune. Yet in discussing Indiana's Big 10 title you speak in terms of accomplishment and not luck, achievement and not gift. And in your boy's press conference after the game, I don't recall him musing about the incredible amount of good luck/Michigan self pissing that gave his team the game and the title. Hmmmm....wonder why that is.




                                       

[Silkk the Shaka]

Here is the rundown of the final minute of MU - Davidson:

1:02 J Wilson makes 3 point shot

                                                  :41  Davidson makes lay up

:27 Blue makes 3 point shot

                                                  :20 Davidson makes 2 free throws

:10 J Wilson makes 3 point shot

                                                   :07 Davidson Turnover

:01 Blue makes lay up

Marquette sores 11 points on 4 possessions, Davidson 4 on 3. We win, slight assist from Davidson. Eight months later you're still talking loudly and often about our luck and how they pissed themselves.

Contrast that game to Indiana's biggest win of last season, March 10 vs Michigan. The game that gave the Hoosiers the Big 10 title and saw Tom Crean go maniac on a Wolverine assistant coach.

52 seconds left, Michigan up 5, Indiana ball:

:41 Zellar misses lay up, makes tip in

                                              :38 Hardaway misses free throw

:30 Zellar makes 2 Free throws 

                                               :28 Burke misses free throw 

:14 Zellar makes lay up

                                                :07 Burke misses lay up
                                                :04 Morgan misses lay up

You want collapse? You want pissing yourself? You want lucky? You want the Big Ten title as a gift? Two turnovers (that's what the missed front end of a 1 and 1 is), two missed lay ups on the offensive end and two lay ups, a foul and a tip in given up by the defense. In 41 seconds. An epic, almost unprecedented heap of good fortune. Yet in discussing Indiana's Big 10 title you speak in terms of accomplishment and not luck, achievement and not gift. And in your boy's press conference after the game, I don't recall him musing about the incredible amount of good luck/Michigan self pissing that gave his team the game and the title. Hmmmm....wonder why that is.




                                       

Take a bow.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lenny...of course they were lucky.  UM absolutely pissed themselves.


I think my comments last night were dead on correct.  If IU or UW-Madison or ND was in the position that MU was against Davidson and won that way, 99.99% of this board would say they got lucky and would say Davidson choked, pissed their pants, whatever.  You and I know that is exactly the view people would have. 

I'm applying the same standard.

[🏀]

So what's going to happen when TC isn't coaching at IU anymore?

Are you guys finally going to let us enjoy this forum without having to continually dodge the TC thread takeovers?

[Eldon]

Guys, guys, guys...it's okay to admit that we got lucky and yet still admit that Buzz is a great coach.  The tenets are perfectly consistent with each other. 

IMO, we did get lucky beating Davidson.  Luck did not, however, win us the BE regular season title last year (or beating Butler or the thrashing of the U)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Guys, guys, guys...it's okay to admit that we got lucky and yet still admit that Buzz is a great coach.  The tenets are perfectly consistent with each other. 

IMO, we did get lucky beating Davidson.  Luck did not, however, win us the BE regular season title last year (or beating Butler or the thrashing of the U)

DING DING DING DING.  All coaches get lucky at times.  My God, you would think some people take it as a rip...it's ok to be lucky sometimes, part of life.  Good Lord

[MU82]

So what's going to happen when TC isn't coaching at IU anymore?

Are you guys finally going to let us enjoy this forum without having to continually dodge the TC thread takeovers?

You mean when TC comes back to Marquette after Buzz leaves for Texas?

[Sunbelt15]

The only luck I remember from last year is Junior going full court with about 5 secs. left, and launching a deep three to send the game into overtime. Result, Win!! Everything else was solid.

[GGGG]

There was absolutely nothing lucky about the Davidson game.  Basketball players making normal basketball shots.

[MU82]

The only luck I remember from last year is Junior going full court with about 5 secs. left, and launching a deep three to send the game into overtime. Result, Win!! Everything else was solid.

And even that wasn't totally lucky.

I coach a middle-school girls basketball team and even we have devoted time to practicing just such shots. I'm guessing Junior (and others) practiced that shot numerous times.

[Eldon]

The only luck I remember from last year is Junior going full court with about 5 secs. left, and launching a deep three to send the game into overtime. Result, Win!! Everything else was solid.

Coach Autry, 1-0

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny...of course they were lucky.  UM absolutely pissed themselves.


I think my comments last night were dead on correct.  If IU or UW-Madison or ND was in the position that MU was against Davidson and won that way, 99.99% of this board would say they got lucky and would say Davidson choked, pissed their pants, whatever.  You and I know that is exactly the view people would have. 

I'm applying the same standard.

Mom always said I was special. Nice to know I'm a .01 per center in your estimation. If IU, ND, or UW hit 3 in rhythm, good form perfectly swished 3s and a lay up in the final minute to beat a team who scored 2 points, 2 points and 0 points on their final 3 possessions I would call it what it was - a miraculous, one for the ages comeback with a small nod to our opponents since they were only perfect on 2 or their final 3 possessions.

If, however, MU came back in the final minute due to a total implosion by our opponent (see IU vs Michigan) I would call it what it was - a mostly lucky win with huge nod to our opponent for totally pissing themselves, but a win we had to seal by taking what was offered (teams don't always do that).

Our disagreement isn't over luck being involved in both scenarios but over how much luck and your agenda driven reaction to it. If Michigan "pisses themselves" like Davidson, Indiana still loses. We didn't. Yet here you are, on a Marquette board, 8 months after the fact, minimizing maybe the greatest comeback in MU history. You're a Kansas and an Indiana fan. Do you constantly diminish KU's championship on their boards as lucky because Memphis choked? Or Indiana's BIG title because Michigan choked? Of course not. That would be considered bad form for a Jayhawk or Hoosier fan. And 99.99% of Warrior fans, too.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There was absolutely nothing lucky about the Davidson game.  Basketball players making normal basketball shots.

Coach Buzz Williams and nearly every basketball writer in America disagrees, but that's ok.

I'll take a bit of luck with skill.....the two are a winning combination.

[GGGG]

Coach Buzz Williams and nearly every basketball writer in America disagrees, but that's ok.

Buzz uses hyperbole and most basketball writers are idiots...well not really idiots....just hyperbolic.

[79Warrior]

Buzz uses hyperbole and most basketball writers are idiots.

That is funny. You basically are diminishing any opinion other than your own.

[GGGG]

That is funny. You basically are diminishing any opinion other than your own.

Idiots is a strong, and inaccurate word.

Basketball writers tend to use hyperbole, and extra-flowery words, to describe things that are not actually that.  There was simply nothing lucky about that comeback.  No half court shots or anything of the like.  Marquette simply out-executed Davidson down the stretch.  The shots MU hit, and the turnover that MU forced, were basketball players making basketball plays.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Mom always said I was special. Nice to know I'm a .01 per center in your estimation. If IU, ND, or UW hit 3 in rhythm, good form perfectly swished 3s and a lay up in the final minute to beat a team who scored 2 points, 2 points and 0 points on their final 3 possessions I would call it what it was - a miraculous, one for the ages comeback with a small nod to our opponents since they were only perfect on 2 or their final 3 possessions.

If, however, MU came back in the final minute due to a total implosion by our opponent (see IU vs Michigan) I would call it what it was - a mostly lucky win with huge nod to our opponent for totally pissing themselves, but a win we had to seal by taking what was offered (teams don't always do that).

Our disagreement isn't over luck being involved in both scenarios but over how much luck and your agenda driven reaction to it. If Michigan "pisses themselves" like Davidson, Indiana still loses. We didn't. Yet here you are, on a Marquette board, 8 months after the fact, minimizing maybe the greatest comeback in MU history. You're a Kansas and an Indiana fan. Do you constantly diminish KU's championship on their boards as lucky because Memphis choked? Or Indiana's BIG title because Michigan choked? Of course not. That would be considered bad form for a Jayhawk or Hoosier fan. And 99.99% of Warrior fans, too.

Lenny on fire

[Dr. Blackheart]

Luck is when the opposing head coach gets his second technical for putting his hands on his hips and gets thrown out at the end of a tight NCAA game (and then has an assistant coach take over at a key time).  Bad luck is not pressuring two poor handled guards, while single teaming the All-American center with your back-up center (who every one in the arena knew was getting the ball for the last shot). 

[mileskishnish72]

Very funny yet perceptive post, Lenny. Made me chuckle. Yes, I am a pessimist. Thanks for not pointing out that I've already been on the same bandwagon this year. I'm hoping my ability to see the future has not improved!

[Lennys Tap]

Very funny yet perceptive post, Lenny. Made me chuckle. Yes, I am a pessimist. Thanks for not pointing out that I've already been on the same bandwagon this year. I'm hoping my ability to see the future has not improved!

Trust me Miles, every fan (myself included) jumps on that bandwagon from time to time. I yell at the TV, the dog, anyone who might listen.

[MUfan12]

Luck is when the opposing head coach gets his second technical for putting his hands on his hips and gets thrown out at the end of a tight NCAA game (and then has an assistant coach take over at a key time).  Bad luck is not pressuring two poor handled guards, while single teaming the All-American center with your back-up center (who every one in the arena knew was getting the ball for the last shot). 

Shut it down!

Bravo, Doc.