collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by 88Warrior
[Today at 11:45:49 PM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by BLWarrior91
[Today at 10:54:22 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Vander Blue Man Group
[Today at 10:29:17 PM]


45 minutes ago at the Dallas Westin by denverMU
[Today at 09:45:23 PM]


Where is Marquette? by marqfan22
[Today at 09:29:52 PM]


Chicago bars for Fri game by Daniel
[Today at 08:47:22 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by Goose
[Today at 07:54:34 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."  (Read 13331 times)

warriorstrack

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
  • Keep the wallet in the pocket
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2013, 11:06:56 PM »
Who are the true leaders on this team.  Besides Buzz trying to get guys to play there best, you need guys actually on the team to step up and take a leadership role.  This team seems rudderless, Buzz yes (trying to right the ship), and I'm sure doing all he can do to get it going, but to the guys on the team it's time to step up.  Hopefully soon we can see a little passion coming out of some of the older players and light a fire under the collective asses of the team.  The nice little pre-season pub we had about being the favorite in the Big East and early season ranking won't get us past ASU, Badgers, or improved and hungry Big East foes.

statnik

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2013, 12:14:31 AM »

So now we are going to denigrate last year? ::)

It's no secret and you can't deny it with stats or logic: we were unusually lucky in close games last year.  In that vein it was not unlike 2009-10, but even moreso.

statnik

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2013, 12:19:36 AM »
I think the serious point is here is that you can refute the argument that "odd coaching moves in November make us solid in March" with the fact that we weren't that solid in March:

Take a look at our March games:

Nearly lost to Rutgers
nearly lost to St. Johns
Blown out by Notre Dame in the BET--a team we handled solidly a few weeks before
Nearly lost to Davidson, a 14 seed.
Barely escaped Butler.
Lost badly to Syracuse, a team we easily defeated a few weeks before.

We had two solid wins in eight games in March--Notre Dame at home, and Miami in the tournament. 
AND against Notre Dame Jack Cooley was sick. Against Miami Reggie Johnson (their leading rebounder) blew out his knee the game before.

Speaking facturally about our March play isn't denigrating the team--its pointing out the falacy that Buzz's odd coaching moves in November and December made us a stronger team in March.



Your comments are not popular, but they speak the truth more than any excuse making or the ability to look past laying an egg in a big game.  I've been a Bucks fan for awhile, and that board is seemingly the opposite of this one, thanks to the humbling all of the recent mediocre or poor seasons have done.  They are mostly realists or somewhat pessimists about the team, but they are a very smart board.  This is a smart, numbers oriented board as well, but I think there can be a few too many people wearing blue and gold colored glasses, just due to past success with both the school's history and Buzz's history.

The Equalizer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2013, 01:30:03 AM »
Duh, that's the point. We improved from the November meeting while Butler did not. Exactly what people have been saying about Buzz's teams in general and last year specifically this entire thread. As a lawyer, is arguing just so ingrained in every fiber of your being that you end up confused and argue for your opponent's side? A shoddy barrister indeed.

How do you figure?  We got to the end of the game in March in exactly the same situation.

"Like November's first meeting between the teams at the Maui Invitational, won 72-71 by Butler on Rotnei Clarke's buzzer-beating 3-pointer, it came down to the final shot. Only this time, Butler missed."
http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=330820269


The Equalizer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2013, 01:58:27 AM »
1.if you think you know more than Vegas there's big money to be made. Anyone can belittle MU's win over Miami as a big underdog AFTER it's already happened, but I bet you didn't liquidate your assets to take the 7 points or, better yet, get almost 3-1 even on the money line.

I'm not belittling MU's win.

I'm belittling you for suggesting that there is no impact to a team losing its leading rebounder who is also in the top 6 in both scoring and minutes--and happens to be one of only 3 players taller that 6'6".   

2. Read my post. I said last 5 years. In 3 NCAA tournaments with his own players, Brad Stevens was 11-2 with both losses coming in championship games when he played Marquette. At freaking Butler. Please name a coach in recent times who has been better when the stakes were highest.

I did read your post.  I was discussing 2013, and in your post you chose to attempt to bring Stevens' performance from 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 into the discussion.

You're old enough to have become familar with the statement: "past performance is not an indication of future success."

That certainly applies here. Stevens' may well have been the "best coach in the NCAA when stakes were highest" in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. 

He wasn't in 2013.

Beating them was a big deal (as was beating Miami). You minimizing the accomplishment speaks to your bias.

I don't know why this confuses you so much.  A team can play weaker than they did earlier in the season, yet still win games.

You're making the illogical argument that just because we won, we were a stronger team.
I'm making the argument--backed by the facts--that we didn't get stronger, even though we won 6 of 8 games.

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #80 on: November 22, 2013, 07:26:29 AM »
Ahh the height of irony...I have a bias.  And comes as no surprise you'd roll out a "I though Crean did a great job.  I think Buzz is doing a great job as well."

You see Chicos, that would have some merit, if such a statement - which you too have made on occasion - wasn't offset about 100 to 1 skewing the other way/negative toward Buzz and his accomplishments while at MU.

But well were at it - where do you think Indiana will finish in the Big 10 this year?

Ners, no irony at all, I have a bias, we all have a bias.  My points is that you said you haven't see the guy ever say anything positive or wasn't demeaning.  Took me no time at all to find that wasn't true.  Secondly, what you construe as "negative", others view as factual or simply constructive criticism.  All depends how high the hurt meter is set to.

I think IU will finish 6th, outside shot at 5th.  A lot of talent, but they lost so much experience.  Iowa will be the surprise team in the Big Ten this year.  No one is going to want to play them.  I see them as top 5 Big Ten, potentially 4th spot.  IU had a decent win last night over Washington, though more of a "brand" win since UW isn't that great, but they did pound them pretty good.

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #81 on: November 22, 2013, 09:27:57 AM »
   

I did read your post.  I was discussing 2013, and in your post you chose to attempt to bring Stevens' performance from 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 into the discussion.

You're old enough to have become familar with the statement: "past performance is not an indication of future success."

That certainly applies here. Stevens' may well have been the "best coach in the NCAA when stakes were highest" in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. 

He wasn't in 2013.




So when John Wooden win 10 straight NCAA tournaments, the team and coach who beat him in year 11 get a "no big deal" from you. Sorry, great coaches are great coaches, period. And when patterns emerge "past performances ARE an indication of future success". The team and coach who break that pattern deserve major props.

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #82 on: November 22, 2013, 11:08:23 AM »
So when John Wooden win 10 straight NCAA tournaments, the team and coach who beat him in year 11 get a "no big deal" from you. Sorry, great coaches are great coaches, period. And when patterns emerge "past performances ARE an indication of future success". The team and coach who break that pattern deserve major props.

Wooden retired after year 10, he didn't get beat for number 11. 

Past performances are SOMETIMES an indication of future success, sometimes not.  Just as some coaches struggle early but find nirvana later in life.

The Equalizer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2013, 11:31:48 AM »
So when John Wooden win 10 straight NCAA tournaments, the team and coach who beat him in year 11 get a "no big deal" from you. Sorry, great coaches are great coaches, period. And when patterns emerge "past performances ARE an indication of future success". The team and coach who break that pattern deserve major props.

First, I didn't say "no big deal."  I said the past results don't prove the future.

Applying your analogy on Butler would be like claiming that because John Wooden won "10 straight (sic) NCAA tournaments" from 1964 to 1975, he therefore won it in 1976 as well--any contrary facts that suggest Bobby Knight won in 1976 be dammned.

Similarly, just because Stevens teams improved in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 doesn't "prove" that the 2013 improved, any more than Wooden winning 10 championships "proves" he won the 11th.

Whats funny here is that you've used everything EXCEPT Butler's actualy record to try to "prove" Butler improved during the 2013 season.

My argument that Butler wasn't playing stronger in March 2013  is that they went from beating #1 teams (current and future) in non-conference to not being capabile of beating a team outside the top 50.  They went from 13-2 in noncnference play (.867 winning percentage) early in the season to .625 in March.

Your argument that they got stronger at the end of 2013 consists mostly on Butler's performance in years OTHER than 2013, and now inexplicably, John Wooden's championshop run. 

Care to make another attempt, perhaps this time citing someting Butler actually did late in the 2013 season that impressed you that they were playing even better than they did when beating #1 Indiana and future #1 Gonzaga?

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2013, 11:40:24 AM »
Why is it when Brad Stevens comes up the blinders also come up?  He's a wonderful coach, accomplished much at a young age, I just don't understand why the step backwards years are simply ignored.

His first year he went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament, the next year he lost in the first round.  Now with "certain" coaches around here this is considered a step backward, but apparently in evaluating Brad it isn't.

After going to the championship game back to back, his team failed to qualify for the NCAAs.  Failed to quality for the NIT.  Made it to the CBI where they lost in the third round.  The following year back to the NCAAs where they lost in their second game.

He's done great work and his teams will do great things just as they will fail at times.  A coach isn't a machine, his players still have to perform.  Why when his teams don't do that it is ignored is odd to me.

NersEllenson

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6735
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2013, 12:26:08 PM »
Why is it when Brad Stevens comes up the blinders also come up?  He's a wonderful coach, accomplished much at a young age, I just don't understand why the step backwards years are simply ignored.

His first year he went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament, the next year he lost in the first round.  Now with "certain" coaches around here this is considered a step backward, but apparently in evaluating Brad it isn't.

After going to the championship game back to back, his team failed to qualify for the NCAAs.  Failed to quality for the NIT.  Made it to the CBI where they lost in the third round.  The following year back to the NCAAs where they lost in their second game.

He's done great work and his teams will do great things just as they will fail at times.  A coach isn't a machine, his players still have to perform.  Why when his teams don't do that it is ignored is odd to me.

Umm....which "certain" coach might you be referencing....and why is he even relevant to this thread??  Just can't help but defend your boy that you have the bias hard on for?  What are your thoughts now 6 years in at Indiana, and you project another regression year for your boy?  You think they'll finish 6th in with an outside shot at 5th in the Big 10 at a blueblood school like IU, the flagship university, in a talent rich state??  How does that happen??  But hey, it's all good when you say you think Buzz has done a great job at MU, about 1 every 50 to 100 posts that take up for your boy Crean....who left MU and hasn't been the coach here for 6 years.  Let the man go.  We clearly upgraded in Buzz and being the die hard MU fan you are, you should be so happy!!
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2013, 12:28:42 PM »
Ners,

I said certain coaches, not a certain coach.



NersEllenson

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6735
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2013, 12:34:15 PM »
Ners,

I said certain coaches, not a certain coach.



Ahh....my bad....so which "coaches" were you referring to?  And I am curious to get your thoughts on how IU could even be in a position to finish 5th or 6th in the Big 10 in Year 6 of Crean's tenure at a blueblood program??  He obviously left MU because he felt recruiting would be easier at IU...which it has been....yet now in Year 6 he's looking at 5th or 6th?  Cmon Man.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Eldon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2945
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2013, 09:39:13 PM »
First, I didn't say "no big deal."  I said the past results don't prove the future.

Applying your analogy on Butler would be like claiming that because John Wooden won "10 straight (sic) NCAA tournaments" from 1964 to 1975, he therefore won it in 1976 as well--any contrary facts that suggest Bobby Knight won in 1976 be dammned.

Similarly, just because Stevens teams improved in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 doesn't "prove" that the 2013 improved, any more than Wooden winning 10 championships "proves" he won the 11th.

Whats funny here is that you've used everything EXCEPT Butler's actualy record to try to "prove" Butler improved during the 2013 season.

My argument that Butler wasn't playing stronger in March 2013  is that they went from beating #1 teams (current and future) in non-conference to not being capabile of beating a team outside the top 50.  They went from 13-2 in noncnference play (.867 winning percentage) early in the season to .625 in March.

Your argument that they got stronger at the end of 2013 consists mostly on Butler's performance in years OTHER than 2013, and now inexplicably, John Wooden's championshop run. 

Care to make another attempt, perhaps this time citing someting Butler actually did late in the 2013 season that impressed you that they were playing even better than they did when beating #1 Indiana and future #1 Gonzaga?

Past results don't prove the future?  I sure hope that history didn't teach that to you because that would be quite the paradox.

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: "Buzz has not installed the offense yet..."
« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2013, 10:29:09 PM »
Why is it when Brad Stevens comes up the blinders also come up?  He's a wonderful coach, accomplished much at a young age, I just don't understand why the step backwards years are simply ignored.

His first year he went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament, the next year he lost in the first round.  Now with "certain" coaches around here this is considered a step backward, but apparently in evaluating Brad it isn't.

After going to the championship game back to back, his team failed to qualify for the NCAAs.  Failed to quality for the NIT.  Made it to the CBI where they lost in the third round.  The following year back to the NCAAs where they lost in their second game.

He's done great work and his teams will do great things just as they will fail at times.  A coach isn't a machine, his players still have to perform.  Why when his teams don't do that it is ignored is odd to me.

Four years with his own players. 11 NCAA tourney wins. Two final fours . Two championship games. At Butler.

Ten years with his own players. 9 NCAA tourney wins. One Final Four. Zero championship games. At Marquette and blue blood Indiana.

Want to criticize Stevens, fine. Just don't compare his career to TC's. That would be an insult to him and to anyone with a morsel of basketball IQ.

 

feedback