Spreading ripples of Vander going pro

[tower912]

IMO, the challenges facing this team early can be traced to Vander's decision to turn pro.   If he had stuck around, he might be starting at the point.   He would definitely be starting at the 2.   He would be the go-to guy.  His presence would have lessened the need for the frosh to develop quickly.  If he HAD been able to play 10-15 MPG at the point,  so many of these debates would not be happening.    We probably would have still lost to tOSU,  but just as a couple of early calls have ramifications down the road, so does the presence of an attacking guard who has been there before.   Also, IMO, his assumed presence is one of the reasons that Buzz did not get a PG in the '12 class.   No need, Blue will get time at the point.  Well, the line of succession got disrupted.    And now Buzz has a team that is forcing him to learn to coach another different way. 


But, he turned pro.   And Buzz needs to coach up what he's got.   And I still think this can be a successful team. 

[brewcity77]

Agreed with all of this. Mayo has to learn on the fly how to play the role that DJO and Vander both had time to grow into.

[augoman]

yes.

[Litehouse]

Another questions is if Vander had stayed and played significant minutes at the point, would it have put him in a better position to make an NBA roster next year?

[mu03eng]

Another questions is if Vander had stayed and played significant minutes at the point, would it have put him in a better position to make an NBA roster next year?

I don't think so....draft is too deep and there was only so much improvement he could make.

Having said that, if we have Vander we win going away on Saturday.

[TJ]

Agreed with all of this. Mayo has to learn on the fly how to play the role that DJO and Vander both had time to grow into.

Todd is a junior.  He's had plenty of time to learn how to play his role.  He doesn't need to replace Vander, he needs to play well as Todd.

[The Lens]

I don't think Vander going pro surprised anyone. 

I bet Buzz is probably a little surprised that Jake Thomas cannot shoot in games.  If we shoot 28% from 3 against Ohio State, it's a very different game.

[bilsu]

We still would be 2-1, if Vander had stayed.

[mu03eng]

We still would be 2-1, if Vander had stayed.

Under what basis do you say that?  Vander improves defense and vastly improves scoring from the 2 guard in the Ohio State game.  We held OSU to 52 points....Vander would likely be good for 12-16 points and the defense forcing to shift to adjust for him opens things up for others.  Obviously we can't say definitively but I think it far more likely we win with Vander than we lose.

[Coleman]

I don't think Vander going pro surprised anyone. 

I bet Buzz is probably a little surprised that Jake Thomas cannot shoot in games.  If we shoot 28% from 3 against Ohio State, it's a very different game.

This.

[Dreadman24]

We still would be 2-1, if Vander had stayed.

doubt it

[4everwarriors]

Buzz gets the big bucks to deal with this smack, a'ina?

[Markusquette]

Under what basis do you say that?  Vander improves defense and vastly improves scoring from the 2 guard in the Ohio State game.  We held OSU to 52 points....Vander would likely be good for 12-16 points and the defense forcing to shift to adjust for him opens things up for others.  Obviously we can't say definitively but I think it far more likely we win with Vander than we lose.

I agree.  I think with Vander MU wins that game.  We would have been able to take advantage of their poor shooting and our good D more on offense in the first half.  And in the second half my guess is he alleviates some of our struggles on offense and keeps it a close game until the end. 

[Sunbelt15]

We still would be 2-1, if Vander had stayed.

It's not that we lost, it's how we lost that's the problem.

[keefe]

IMO, the challenges facing this team early can be traced to Vander's decision to turn pro.   If he had stuck around, he might be starting at the point.   He would definitely be starting at the 2.   He would be the go-to guy.  His presence would have lessened the need for the frosh to develop quickly.  If he HAD been able to play 10-15 MPG at the point,  so many of these debates would not be happening.    We probably would have still lost to tOSU,  but just as a couple of early calls have ramifications down the road, so does the presence of an attacking guard who has been there before.   Also, IMO, his assumed presence is one of the reasons that Buzz did not get a PG in the '12 class.   No need, Blue will get time at the point.  Well, the line of succession got disrupted.    And now Buzz has a team that is forcing him to learn to coach another different way. 


But, he turned pro.   And Buzz needs to coach up what he's got.   And I still think this can be a successful team. 

And if your aunt had balls she would be your uncle. Vander Blue made the right decision for his life which is the only correct one. It is Buzz Williams responsibility to coach the team he has. Nothing else is relevant.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't think Vander going pro surprised anyone. 

Buzz's comments this Spring sure seem to counter that 

[keefe]

Buzz gets the big bucks to deal with this smack, a'ina?

Very well put, Doc. I think Mr. Hitler lamented that Germany didn't have enough tanks because that damned 8th Air Force had destroyed all industry in the Ruhr. Oh what could have been... 

[bilsu]

Under what basis do you say that?  Vander improves defense and vastly improves scoring from the 2 guard in the Ohio State game.  We held OSU to 52 points....Vander would likely be good for 12-16 points and the defense forcing to shift to adjust for him opens things up for others.  Obviously we can't say definitively but I think it far more likely we win with Vander than we lose.

So if Vander scores 16, what happens to Mayo's 11? I believe the game would of been closer, but there was more of a difference than Vander in the Ohio St. game. Vander's last game was also a low scoring high deficit loss against Syracuse. Vander could not stop that beating and I doubt that he would of stopped this one.

[wadesworld]

So if Vander scores 16, what happens to Mayo's 11? I believe the game would of been closer, but there was more of a difference than Vander in the Ohio St. game. Vander's last game was also a low scoring high deficit loss against Syracuse. Vander could not stop that beating and I doubt that he would of stopped this one.

Todd wouldn't have had the ability to miss 12 shots had Blue been on the court.

[slack00]

The only statistic that is not a guess:

Vander's Salary in 2013-2014 > Vander's Salary in 2012-2013

[GooooMarquette]

So if Vander scores 16, what happens to Mayo's 11?

Nobody knows...but since many of Vander's minutes would have been in place of the 29 minutes played by Jake, it's at least possible that Vander's hypothetical 16 would have had little impact on Mayo's 11.  In fact, you could argue that Mayo may have scored more than 11 (possibly fewer shots taken, but more made), because he wouldn't have been the main focus of the defense for most of the second half.

This probably would have been a better team with Vander than without him, and Jake would be gone if Vander had stayed.  The rest -including my speculation above - is just guesswork.

[wadesworld]

The only statistic that is not a guess:

Vander's Salary in 2013-2014 > Vander's Salary in 2012-2013

Vander's career earnings had he stayed 1 more year and gotten a college degree with a chance to get drafted >>>>> Vander's career earnings after leaving college with no degree and having no chance of getting drafted (because he didn't, regardless of how weak the draft class was).

Just because the valedictorian of Watertown High immediately begins making money by working on the family farm out of high school rather than going to Harvard to get a degree and has to put making money on hold doesn't mean it was the right decision.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Vander's career earnings had he stayed 1 more year and gotten a college degree with a chance to get drafted >>>>> Vander's career earnings after leaving college with no degree and having no chance of getting drafted (because he didn't, regardless of how weak the draft class was).

Just because the valedictorian of Watertown High immediately begins making money by working on the family farm out of high school rather than going to Harvard to get a degree and has to put making money on hold doesn't mean it was the right decision.

Agree with the point but you never know. Vander could have been injured. Or maybe this stint in Israel eventually gets him into the association where he has a great career. He's making thousands playing a game he loves, I say he is doing alright for himself.

[Farley36]

I think there are three factors at play that will spell trouble for this years team:

1.  Vander leaving - I agree with the post above that he was the critical piece this team needed to achieve success.  His minutes at the SG and PG position cannot be effectively replaced which leads to issue number two.

2.  Our junior class is very poor.  This class proves how important every single recruiting class is.  These are the players who should be able to step in and replace Cadougan, Lockett, and Blue.   However, none of the three are impact players.   Mayo has moments where he is very good but is highly erratic.   Derrick Wilson and Juan bring nothing to the table.   That said, shouldn't we be able to compensate for one bad class of three players?  Well, let's discuss issue number three.

3.  Buzz refuses to give significant minutes to freshman.   For whatever reason, the freshman are riding the pine.   If this continues this team will struggle as our only production will come from our seniors and sole sophomore.  We already have discussed how the junior class is hopeless.  We simply cannot have a winning team while getting no production from two whole recruiting classes.  

[slack00]

Vander's career earnings had he stayed 1 more year and gotten a college degree with a chance to get drafted >>>>> Vander's career earnings after leaving college with no degree and having no chance of getting drafted (because he didn't, regardless of how weak the draft class was).

Just because the valedictorian of Watertown High immediately begins making money by working on the family farm out of high school rather than going to Harvard to get a degree and has to put making money on hold doesn't mean it was the right decision.

But it also doesn't mean it wasn't.  That's my point.  Nobody knows.