What was Buzz doing?

[mu-rara]

He is not quick enough to get his shot off against high D1 players. 

Maybe screens and pounding the ball down low (successfully) will get him free.

[GooooMarquette]

When Jake got consistent playing time as a fresh/soph, he took 450 3s he shot nearly 40%. In limited minutes at MU, he's taken 49 3s and made just 13 of them. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but during his D1 career, he has proven that he has the ability to shoot the ball at a very good clip from the outside.

As Saturday's game went on, OSU gave Thomas more space because 1) he wasn't hitting and 2) they had a sizable lead and adjusted to take away the post.

I can guarantee you that teams would be sagging off JJJ more than Jake Thomas at this point in their careers. Jake has proved that he can knock down outside shots. JJJ has not.

You totally ignore the quality of the competition he saw at USD vs what he's seen at MU.  Lots of guys who play very well against Denver, SDSU, NDSU, etc would struggle mightily against tOSU.

[MerrittsMustache]

Which shows just how irrelevant his frosh and soph stats were playing low D-1 ball at USD.  Use his stats playing at the high D-1 level, and the number dips to .265.

That tells me he can hit consistently against weaker, smaller, slower defenses...which is pretty much irrelevant when you're playing tOSU.

You totally ignore the quality of the competition he saw at USD vs what he's seen at MU.  Lots of guys who play very well against Denver, SDSU, NDSU, etc would struggle mightily against tOSU.

Do we need Coach Norman Dale to come out and measure the distance from the 3-point line to the basket? If you can shoot it, you can shoot it. Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school?

Do I think Jake is going to become a Novak-like sniper? No. Is it obvious that his shot is too slow? Yes. But opposing teams still respect his outside shooting because he has proven that he can shoot it.

We're not talking about "playing well," we're talking about having the ability to hit shots from the outside.

[tower912]

You mean like Dawson and JJJ playing well against Grambling might not translate to huge minutes against the Buckeyes?

[GooooMarquette]

Do we need Coach Norman Dale to come out and measure the distance from the 3-point line to the basket? If you can shoot it, you can shoot it.

So the speed, size, quality etc of the defense means nothing?  Really?

He can probably shoot lights-out in practice, in his driveway, and against slower, smaller teams.  But he has not shown the ability to consistently hit the 3 against high D-1 defenses.

[GooooMarquette]

You mean like Dawson and JJJ playing well against Grambling might not translate to huge minutes against the Buckeyes?

Correct.  I never said either deserved huge minutes.  Give each a run of 3-4 minutes to see if they can do something, and if not, sit 'em back down. 

[GooooMarquette]

Do we need Coach Norman Dale to come out and measure the distance from the 3-point line to the basket? If you can shoot it, you can shoot it. Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school?

Do I think Jake is going to become a Novak-like sniper? No. Is it obvious that his shot is too slow? Yes. But opposing teams still respect his outside shooting because he has proven that he can shoot it.

We're not talking about "playing well," we're talking about having the ability to hit shots from the outside.

In terms of Jake's skill set, "playing well" DOES mean having the ability to hit shots from the outside.  He has shown he can consistently do that against lower D-1 competition, but not against better defenses. 

[Lennys Tap]

Thomas is shooting near 26% from long distance in his Marquette career. At this point, the only respect he's given near a basketball court is the bullcrap opposing coaches spew in media sessions. It's a knockdown case of perception clouding reality.

Matta opened the game with his best defender (Craft) on Thomas.

[MerrittsMustache]

So the speed, size, quality etc of the defense means nothing?  Really?

He can probably shoot lights-out in practice, in his driveway, and against slower, smaller teams.  But he has not shown the ability to consistently hit the 3 against high D-1 defenses.

You avoided my question: Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school? After all, the defenders are slower, smaller and worse.

[GooooMarquette]

You avoided my question: Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school? After all, the defenders are slower, smaller and worse.

No, but he likely would have shot a higher percentage than he did against MU's schedule.

The point is, we don't have to deal with hypotheticals when we're talking about Jake.  We have real evidence that he shoots the 3 much better against low D-1 opponents than he does against high majors. 

[MerrittsMustache]

No, but he likely would have shot a higher percentage than he did against MU's schedule.

The point is, we don't have to deal with hypotheticals when we're talking about Jake.  We have real evidence that he shoots the 3 much better against low D-1 opponents than he does against high majors. 

I'll go back to what I keep saying: If you can shoot it, you can shoot it and that is why Thomas plays. He can shoot it. Even when he's not shooting it well, teams have to respect his ability and that opens the floor. Put a freshman in those minutes and the lane is going to become much more clogged.

[PistolPete]

But opposing teams still respect his outside shooting because he has proven that he can shoot it.

Has he though?

[brewcity77]

I'll go back to what I keep saying: If you can shoot it, you can shoot it and that is why Thomas plays. He can shoot it. Even when he's not shooting it well, teams have to respect his ability and that opens the floor. Put a freshman in those minutes and the lane is going to become much more clogged.

But the simple truth is he's not shooting it. Having him out there for defense is fine, but putting a guy out there and asking him to jack up threes when he is 1/15 against non-Grambling opponents since the start of the year is either a guy that can't shoot or a guy that has such a massive case of the yips that he may as well not be able to shoot. Having Jake out there now as a three-point shooter is the basketball equivalent of putting Rick Ankiel on the mound. Maybe he had it, but at this point, he just doesn't.

[lab_warrior]

I'll go back to what I keep saying: If you can shoot it, you can shoot it and that is why Thomas plays. He can shoot it. Even when he's not shooting it well, teams have to respect his ability and that opens the floor. Put a freshman in those minutes and the lane is going to become much more clogged.

There is a major distinction between shooting said shots,  and MAKING said shots.

[MerrittsMustache]

But the simple truth is he's not shooting it. Having him out there for defense is fine, but putting a guy out there and asking him to jack up threes when he is 1/15 against non-Grambling opponents since the start of the year is either a guy that can't shoot or a guy that has such a massive case of the yips that he may as well not be able to shoot. Having Jake out there now as a three-point shooter is the basketball equivalent of putting Rick Ankiel on the mound. Maybe he had it, but at this point, he just doesn't.

I don't think Buzz is putting Thomas out there and asking him to jack up 3s. He's putting him out there because, as I stated previously, he isn't a defensive liability and he's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor.

The fact of the matter is that Jake Thomas is the best outside shooting threat on the roster. His numbers don't necessarily dictate that at this point but it's true. MU is a team whose primarily offensive threats are a big man (DG) and a slasher (Mayo). With no outside shooting threats on the floor, it's very difficult to get the ball into the post and for a perimeter player to find lanes to drive because defenses clog the lane. On top of that, OSU de-emphasized crashing the boards offensively (6 o-reb and 0 second chance points on 30 misses from the floor) in order to limit MU's transition game (0 transition points). Looking back on it, it's a wonder MU even got to 35.

At the end of the day, if Thomas continues to shoot in the low 20s from 3 and/or someone else (Juan, JJJ, Dawson, etc) knocks down a few outside shots, Jake's minutes are going to decrease. If he can hit even 30% from deep and no one off the bench can prove himself as a threat, Jake is going to continue to get significant PT.

[brewcity77]

The fact of the matter is that Jake Thomas is the best outside shooting threat on the roster. His numbers don't necessarily dictate that at this point but it's true.

If you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in? I'm going with either Jamil or Mayo, and Jake might even be behind Juan and Jajuan simply because Juan has hit some threes and Jajuan might be young enough to not realize he shouldn't make that shot.

I suppose this is at best an agree-to-disagree statement, because I think the idea that Jake is the best outside shooting threat on the team when the only threes he's hit this calendar year are one against Syracuse and a handful against the worst team in the country is absolutely ludicrous.

[MerrittsMustache]

If you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in? I'm going with either Jamil or Mayo, and Jake might even be behind Juan and Jajuan simply because Juan has hit some threes and Jajuan might be young enough to not realize he shouldn't make that shot.

I suppose this is at best an agree-to-disagree statement, because I think the idea that Jake is the best outside shooting threat on the team when the only threes he's hit this calendar year are one against Syracuse and a handful against the worst team in the country is absolutely ludicrous.

Thad Matta certainly respected Jake's shooting ability. I'll agree with him. You can have your own opinions.

[brewcity77]

Thad Matta certainly respected Jake's shooting ability. I'll agree with him. You can have your own opinions.

Thad definitely knows more than I do about the topic, but starting out with Craft on him seems pretty obvious when you consider who else was on the court (no one else small enough other than DeWil). And considering we were 1-18 from three, I'm not sure anyone was a three point threat on Saturday. The difference for me with Mayo (who didn't start on the court) and Wilson (who was always going to be guarded by a forward) is that they at least have a track record of successful distance shooting at a high major level.

As I asked before, if you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in?

[MerrittsMustache]

Thad definitely knows more than I do about the topic, but starting out with Craft on him seems pretty obvious when you consider who else was on the court (no one else small enough other than DeWil). And considering we were 1-18 from three, I'm not sure anyone was a three point threat on Saturday. The difference for me with Mayo (who didn't start on the court) and Wilson (who was always going to be guarded by a forward) is that they at least have a track record of successful distance shooting at a high major level.

As I asked before, if you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in?

Your question isn't really relevant to which player is the best outside shooter but I'll humor you...

If MU is down by 3, Buzz is going to draw up a play for Jamil Wilson because of his size and shooting ability. If MU needs 2 points, he's going to give it to Mayo and clear out (much like with Butler and Blue in the past). If MU somehow were to be allowed to take an uncontested 3, he's going to go with Jake  

[LAZER]

Matta opened the game with his best defender (Craft) on Thomas.

So that means Thomas is more of a threat than Wilson.

[NersEllenson]

So the speed, size, quality etc of the defense means nothing?  Really?

He can probably shoot lights-out in practice, in his driveway, and against slower, smaller teams.  But he has not shown the ability to consistently hit the 3 against high D-1 defenses.

Bingo - To argue otherwise is foolish....as we saw on Jake's shot that got blocked - his release is slow...which can work at a lower level...at this level with the players much more athletic and long..much harder to get shots off. If a "shooter" feels really rushed..he doesn't shoot it well.

People complained all last year about being sick of seeing Jake shot fake/pump fake, maybe dribble 1 bounce and pass.  I'd argue that many of those shot "fakes" were going to be real shots, but he realized he couldn't get it off, so pulled it down.

[MarquetteDano]

If MU is down by 3, Buzz is going to draw up a play for Jamil Wilson because of his size and shooting ability. If MU needs 2 points, he's going to give it to Mayo and clear out (much like with Butler and Blue in the past). If MU somehow were to be allowed to take an uncontested 3, he's going to go with Jake  

Jake can make open threes.  He does it all of the time.  He has done it before.  I agree with Merritt.  The guy came off the bench last year at 8 minutes a game because there were better all-around players than him... so one can discount last year's percentage.  And we are only 3 games into this year.  Let's give the guy a chance.

If by conference season the man is shooting 20% from three then I will agree that he probably isn't going to improve too much.

[GooooMarquette]

Thad Matta certainly respected Jake's shooting ability.

Where do you get that from?

Craft is a 6'2" guard...and he had to guard someone when they played man defense.  Given our starting lineup, the only realistic options were Derrick or Jake, since he clearly wasn't going to guard Jamil (6'7"), Steve (6'7") or Chris (6'11").  Putting Craft on Jake simply means he thinks Jake is more of a scoring threat than Derrick.  Hardly a rousing endorsement of Jake's shooting ability....

[jesmu84]

Where do you get that from?

Craft is a 6'2" guard...and he had to guard someone when they played man defense.  Given our starting lineup, the only realistic options were Derrick or Jake, since he clearly wasn't going to guard Jamil (6'7"), Steve (6'7") or Chris (6'11").  Putting Craft on Jake simply means he thinks Jake is more of a scoring threat than Derrick.  Hardly a rousing endorsement of Jake's shooting ability....

Matta said it in the postgame

[madtownwarrior]

Probably would have been better having him double up on some one...

Point is - he had to guard someone, choosing to guard Wilson or Thomas is like having an NFL team choose which Packer backup QB they prefer to defend against - does it matter?

Matta opened the game with his best defender (Craft) on Thomas.