What was Buzz doing?

[brewcity77]

Yes it would have.  Just like it was good for Key, McIlvaine and Logterman to get their collective a$$ses handed to them by Duke in one of their first collegiate games.

Call me crazy, but I have faith that Buzz knows their personalities and what is better for them as individual players and for the long-term good of the team than you do. Believe it or not, not everyone is alike. Maybe Buzz was using their bench time to send the message that if they want to play, they need to improve and earn it. Dawson has turned the ball over on nearly 40% of possessions while JJJ has been a sieve on defense.

I'd also argue that Buzz has a lot more experienced players he trusts to work with in his sixth year than Kevin O'Neill did in his second year with many Dukiet holdovers still on the roster.

[GooooMarquette]

I'm not going to throw Buzz under the bus for sticking with Derrick.  He has clear flaws - NOBODY is under the impression that he is in there to be a shooter - but he plays solid D, and actually tried to make things happen by taking it to the hole.  I could still see him emerging as a team leader...especially with Jamil so reluctant to assume the role.

But Buzz's continued playing of Jake mystifies me.  He is supposed to be a shooter...but he clearly can't hit shots consistently in big games.  Seems like a few minutes for JJJ and/or Dawson might have shaken things up.  Not saying they'd have won the game or changed the outcome, but I'd think a few minutes of game experience against a talented opponent would have taught them a lot.

Think about this -- if Vander hadn't gone into the draft, Jake wouldn't even be here.  So he goes from a guy who only got a schollie because Vander unexpectedly left, into a starter and designated shooter who stays in even when he isn't hitting shots?

[brewcity77]

I am fine with using Jake to set the tone on defense if he can continue to solidly play that role. However I think that guys like Todd, Juan, and maybe JJJ (if he can start playing defense) will get more and more of those minutes as the season goes on. But I agree that until he starts hitting shots, having him in there to jack up threes that are off the mark isn't going to lead to wins over top-50 competition, and there's plenty of that (ASU, UW, Anaheim, New Mexico) on the schedule between now and December 31.

[Let's Go Warriors]

Hard to say, if they don't even get a shot.  Merely speculation.

Not only that.  But this team badly needs those freshmen to develop.  I remember back to the Key, Logterman, Mcklvein(sp) class.  Freshmen year O'neil put them out their to get their buts handed to them to show them what they need to do.  Break them down to build them up.  Show them what they are capeable of if they work their buts off.

Im not here to say Buzz doesnt know what he is doing.  But I can guarantee you he makes mistakes.  We are all human...  Questioning what he does from time to time is not without merit.

[willie warrior]

Not only that.  But this team badly needs those freshmen to develop.  I remember back to the Key, Logterman, Mcklvein(sp) class.  Freshmen year O'neil put them out their to get their buts handed to them to show them what they need to do.  Break them down to build them up.  Show them what they are capeable of if they work their buts off.

Im not here to say Buzz doesnt know what he is doing.  But I can guarantee you he makes mistakes.  We are all human...  Questioning what he does from time to time is not without merit.

How dare you criticize Buzz. Beware you will face the wrath of the Sultan.

By the way, the freshman will not develop only playing against Grambling. They should play-especially in the backcourt.

[MarquetteDano]

I am fine with using Jake to set the tone on defense if he can continue to solidly play that role. However I think that guys like Todd, Juan, and maybe JJJ (if he can start playing defense) will get more and more of those minutes as the season goes on. But I agree that until he starts hitting shots, having him in there to jack up threes that are off the mark isn't going to lead to wins over top-50 competition, and there's plenty of that (ASU, UW, Anaheim, New Mexico) on the schedule between now and December 31.

In my mind he took one bad three in the game (the one that got blocked).  Two of his threes were in and out.  He needs to take threes when he is open, which is what he did.  Mayo was 1-for-6 from three while Jake was 0-for-6.  Thomas missed seven shots, Mayo missed nine.  I am not saying Thomas is better than Mayo but there were a lot of poor shooters out there on Saturday.

[MarquetteDano]

Not only that.  But this team badly needs those freshmen to develop.  I remember back to the Key, Logterman, Mcklvein(sp) class.  Freshmen year O'neil put them out their to get their buts handed to them to show them what they need to do.  Break them down to build them up.  Show them what they are capeable of if they work their buts off.

Let's remember that freshmen lead team for O'Neill was 15-14 against a worse schedule than what we are going to play this year.

[GOO]

Call me crazy, but I have faith that Buzz knows their personalities and what is better for them as individual players and for the long-term good of the team than you do. Believe it or not, not everyone is alike. Maybe Buzz was using their bench time to send the message that if they want to play, they need to improve and earn it. Dawson has turned the ball over on nearly 40% of possessions while JJJ has been a sieve on defense.

I'd also argue that Buzz has a lot more experienced players he trusts to work with in his sixth year than Kevin O'Neill did in his second year with many Dukiet holdovers still on the roster.

Agreed.  Earn it in practice, that has been the way of Buzz and we should be used to it.  I want to see the freshman as well, but they have to earn it in practice and know what to do on defense.  This has always been the way of Buzz, and he will and has lost games to make a point or to keep consistent with his philosophy.  We lost at UW Green Bay and probably wouldn't have if Mayo had played, but Buzz said he wanted to talk to Mayo's mom before he played Mayo and stuck to it.  Winning one game doesn't change the way Buzz does his business.  I think he knows what he is doing for the long term.

Buzz knows more about what he has and needs to do then scoopers, that is the good news. Is Mayo better than Jake now?  I have never seen it in Mayo.  Is JJ better, I haven't seen it.  I think they have more potential, but they have to show it in practice and beat him out.   Buzz's teams usually see a jump in play during Christmas break, when he gets to have a lot of practice time. The bad news is that we have a tough schedule prior to that time.

I for one am not surprised by this loss or a bad loss.  I am hopeful that the message has been sent to the freshman, and they are ready to make the jump. Hopefully sooner than later.  But, after Christmas, I bet we have a better team with different starters.  Hopefully sooner, but I wouldn't bet on it, unless the freshman make a big practice jump.

It also wouldn't surprise me if we tried to slow it down after Christmas.  This team may be a Kevin O'Neil type of team.  Slow it down and pound it inside.
Buzz has completely adjusted during the season in the past, and he may do so again. If so, defense at the guard positions becomes an even bigger deal for who is going to play.

[brewcity77]

In my mind he took one bad three in the game (the one that got blocked).  Two of his threes were in and out.  He needs to take threes when he is open, which is what he did.  Mayo was 1-for-6 from three while Jake was 0-for-6.  Thomas missed seven shots, Mayo missed nine.  I am not saying Thomas is better than Mayo but there were a lot of poor shooters out there on Saturday.

Yeah, there definitely were. On both sides of the court. But at least Mayo has hit threes in big situations before. Jake did that once against Syracuse. Since the start of Big East play last year, Jake is 1/15 from three against teams that aren't Grambling. If his in and out shots were dropping, I'd be a lot less critical, and we may have beat Ohio State. But they aren't, and until they do, the close miss is just as much of a miss as an airball.

[GOO]

I am fine with using Jake to set the tone on defense if he can continue to solidly play that role. However I think that guys like Todd, Juan, and maybe JJJ (if he can start playing defense) will get more and more of those minutes as the season goes on. But I agree that until he starts hitting shots, having him in there to jack up threes that are off the mark isn't going to lead to wins over top-50 competition, and there's plenty of that (ASU, UW, Anaheim, New Mexico) on the schedule between now and December 31.

I like the dream of Mayo.  He looks the part.  But what has he done better than Jake?  That is the issue.  If Jake plays good D, until Mayo plays as good and learns how to pass it and shoot it, there isn't really a big difference between them.  At least Jake passes it (even if they are not great feeds for open looks) instead of shooting it and missing a lot.

[MerrittsMustache]

But Buzz's continued playing of Jake mystifies me.  He is supposed to be a shooter...but he clearly can't hit shots consistently in big games.  Seems like a few minutes for JJJ and/or Dawson might have shaken things up.  Not saying they'd have won the game or changed the outcome, but I'd think a few minutes of game experience against a talented opponent would have taught them a lot.

Think about this -- if Vander hadn't gone into the draft, Jake wouldn't even be here.  So he goes from a guy who only got a schollie because Vander unexpectedly left, into a starter and designated shooter who stays in even when he isn't hitting shots?

There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

[Lennys Tap]

Let's remember that freshmen lead team for O'Neill was 15-14 against a worse schedule than what we are going to play this year.

Exactly. KO had no choice but to play those freshmen big minutes. Buzz has the program at the point where 15-14 or even 19-12 seasons are considered unacceptable. So be careful what you wish for, Marquette

[hairy worthen]

There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

This is dead on.  I hope that someone else can step up and starting hitting the three to fill that role, JJJ hopefully.  

[brewcity77]

I like the dream of Mayo.  He looks the part.  But what has he done better than Jake?  That is the issue.  If Jake plays good D, until Mayo plays as good and learns how to pass it and shoot it, there isn't really a big difference between them.  At least Jake passes it (even if they are not great feeds for open looks) instead of shooting it and missing a lot.

Mayo can create his own shot. We have seen the potential of Mayo being a scorer against legitimate competition numerous times in the past, against Wisconsin, Washington, Georgetown, and Louisville as a freshman, and against Pitt (twice) and Syracuse last year. He's had good offensive games on big stages. In addition, his defense is right about on par with Jake's.

Ohio State was the worst team offensive performance most of us have seen in our lifetimes. It's tough to take much away from it offensively because we were unilaterally bad. Other than that our offense was offensive. But that's the stingiest defense we are likely to see all year. Let's see how the team does at Arizona State and in Anaheim before we get too far down. Looking ahead, I think the ASU game is a toss-up, but I fully expect us to win the Anaheim Classic. The only team that scares me at all in the field is San Diego State, and they aren't much better at shooting the three than we are.

[connie]

There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

I can accept #1, but all of the statistics seem to go against #2.  You might as well say I can hit a three pointer.  It is in the realm of possibility, despite the fact that I can point to no statistic justifying the point.

[GOO]

Mayo can create his own shot. We have seen the potential of Mayo being a scorer against legitimate competition numerous times in the past, against Wisconsin, Washington, Georgetown, and Louisville as a freshman, and against Pitt (twice) and Syracuse last year. He's had good offensive games on big stages. In addition, his defense is right about on par with Jake's.

Ohio State was the worst team offensive performance most of us have seen in our lifetimes. It's tough to take much away from it offensively because we were unilaterally bad. Other than that our offense was offensive. But that's the stingiest defense we are likely to see all year. Let's see how the team does at Arizona State and in Anaheim before we get too far down. Looking ahead, I think the ASU game is a toss-up, but I fully expect us to win the Anaheim Classic. The only team that scares me at all in the field is San Diego State, and they aren't much better at shooting the three than we are.

I hope your right and Mayo can fill the role.  To me, he looks the part, but shoots way to often without great results.  Again, he seems to have the potential.

[Golden Avalanche]

I can accept #1, but all of the statistics seem to go against #2.  You might as well say I can hit a three pointer.  It is in the realm of possibility, despite the fact that I can point to no statistic justifying the point.

Thomas is shooting near 26% from long distance in his Marquette career. At this point, the only respect he's given near a basketball court is the bullcrap opposing coaches spew in media sessions. It's a knockdown case of perception clouding reality.

[GooooMarquette]

There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

Totally disagree on the second point.  He shot very well as a freshman at USD (.441), then fairly well as a soph at USD (.347), then worse as a junior at MU (.278).  And while this season is young, his numbers have continued to go down (.231)...and his only made shots thus far this year were against the worst team in D-1 basketball.

If I was defending him now, I'd make him prove that he still has the confidence to make a shot.  tOSU pretty much did that on Saturday...and he showed that he doesn't.

On the flip side, JJJ - although a newcomer to the college game - comes with the reputation as a shooter.  If I was on defense, I'd be much more worried about him than a guy who has clearly lost his confidence, and shot .265 since coming to the high major level.

[NersEllenson]

I hope your right and Mayo can fill the role.  To me, he looks the part, but shoots way to often without great results.  Again, he seems to have the potential.

Todd will have a big year...he didn't shoot too often in the first 2 games, did he?  He is a shooting guard by position, however, and is expected to take a good number of shots.  He had his share rattle in and out on Saturday against Ohio State....he will realize his potential this year....so long as Buzz rides him for long stretches.  Last year was a complete throwaway year for Todd...his PT was limited, and choppy when he did get it..

[bilsu]

Todd will have a big year...he didn't shoot too often in the first 2 games, did he?  He is a shooting guard by position, however, and is expected to take a good number of shots.  He had his share rattle in and out on Saturday against Ohio State....he will realize his potential this year....so long as Buzz rides him for long stretches.  Last year was a complete throwaway year for Todd...his PT was limited, and choppy when he did get it..

Todd scored quite a bit in the last few minutes. Up unitl that time he was ineffective and problably playing worse than Thomas was. More than anything this team needs Jamil Wilson to step up.

[frozena pizza]

Our only real offensive weapon is Gardner.  Teams will not even guard D. Wilson or Thomas unless they prove that they can be a scoring threat, which means they will be able to double Gardner every time he gets the ball.  We need to be able to somehow create scoring opportunities out of this.  I'd like to see more Juan, Burton and Taylor.  It's only one game, but this team has some serious weaknesses that were exploited.

[NersEllenson]

Our only real offensive weapon is Gardner.  Teams will not even guard D. Wilson or Thomas unless they prove that they can be a scoring threat, which means they will be able to double Gardner every time he gets the ball.  We need to be able to somehow create scoring opportunities out of this.  I'd like to see more Juan, Burton and Taylor.  It's only one game, but this team has some serious weaknesses that were exploited.

I tend to think this team will still have a VERY good year...think Sweet 16 Elite 8 very likely.  There is a ton of talent on the roster, and Buzz will get it figured out - it might just take longer and a few more lumps along the way than anyone would like.  I look forward to these next few cupcake games to see what the freshman show...I really want to see more of Dawson running the team....think over time Jake's minutes will be limited a lot, with more going to Mayo and JJJ...so that doesn't concern me.

[MerrittsMustache]

I can accept #1, but all of the statistics seem to go against #2.  You might as well say I can hit a three pointer.  It is in the realm of possibility, despite the fact that I can point to no statistic justifying the point.

How about this one? 37.7%. That's Jake's career 3-point shooting percentage.

[GooooMarquette]

How about this one? 37.7%. That's Jake's career 3-point shooting percentage.

Which shows just how irrelevant his frosh and soph stats were playing low D-1 ball at USD.  Use his stats playing at the high D-1 level, and the number dips to .265.

That tells me he can hit consistently against weaker, smaller, slower defenses...which is pretty much irrelevant when you're playing tOSU.

[MerrittsMustache]

Totally disagree on the second point.  He shot very well as a freshman at USD (.441), then fairly well as a soph at USD (.347), then worse as a junior at MU (.278).  And while this season is young, his numbers have continued to go down (.231)...and his only made shots thus far this year were against the worst team in D-1 basketball.

If I was defending him now, I'd make him prove that he still has the confidence to make a shot.  tOSU pretty much did that on Saturday...and he showed that he doesn't.

On the flip side, JJJ - although a newcomer to the college game - comes with the reputation as a shooter.  If I was on defense, I'd be much more worried about him than a guy who has clearly lost his confidence, and shot .265 since coming to the high major level.

When Jake got consistent playing time as a fresh/soph, he took 450 3s he shot nearly 40%. In limited minutes at MU, he's taken 49 3s and made just 13 of them. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but during his D1 career, he has proven that he has the ability to shoot the ball at a very good clip from the outside.

As Saturday's game went on, OSU gave Thomas more space because 1) he wasn't hitting and 2) they had a sizable lead and adjusted to take away the post.

I can guarantee you that teams would be sagging off JJJ more than Jake Thomas at this point in their careers. Jake has proved that he can knock down outside shots. JJJ has not.