Bottom line

[Lighthouse 84]

Someone may have discussed it, but if Derrick can't make a free throw, he either can't be in the game at the end of a tight game or we're screwed.  The guy handling the ball had better be able to knock down some freebies.

[Stretchdeltsig]

After researching the game it sems obvious that Otule, De Wilson and Thomas are big offensive liabilities.  Thought Otulevwas really awful.  Too bad for such a big body!

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

After researching the game it sems obvious that Otule, De Wilson and Thomas are big offensive liabilities.  Thought Otulevwas really awful.  Too bad for such a big body!

Otule will be just fine. He will average his 6 and 5. We know what we can get from him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

After researching the game it sems obvious that Otule, De Wilson and Thomas are big offensive liabilities.  Thought Otulevwas really awful.  Too bad for such a big body!

Absolutely. One game definitely determines exactly what we can expect from a player for the entire season

[brewcity77]

I wasn't here back in the Diener/Wade days, it does surprise me that he was criticized a lot.  He may not have been the best player on those teams, but he was the second best, a great 3 point shooter, and a solid passer who could probably be termed a "winner" based on the success of those teams.  James was a good point guard as well who just struggled with his shooting.  Our recent point guards since those two were all average starters at best, not to diminish what they did though.

One thing to remember is that we missed the NCAAs Diener's junior and senior years. While much of the blame for that lied elsewhere, the starting PG that had some injury issues was always going to take some of the blame for that.

[willie warrior]

Otule will be just fine. He will average his 6 and 5. We know what we can get from him.

Sorry. Otule is not fine. Career he is 4.6 and 3.3. Be surprised if the next Roy Hibbert improves to 6 and 5.

[The Process]

Sorry. Otule is not fine. Career he is 4.6 and 3.3. Be surprised if the next Roy Hibbert improves to 6 and 5.

Otule is what he is:  Half of a nice combo at the 5 with Gardner.

Seriously, man, do you need a hug or something?  It's not like this is the end of the Mike Deane era or anything.

[brewcity77]

Sorry. Otule is not fine. Career he is 4.6 and 3.3. Be surprised if the next Roy Hibbert improves to 6 and 5.

You do realize that basketball is played at 2 ends of the court, right?

[willie warrior]

You do realize that basketball is played at 2 ends of the court, right?

Yeah, I do. Do you? The love for Otule is simply more Kool Aid slurping. Yes, he has had injuries. Yes he is the biggest guy on the floor in almost every game. Yes, he is the next Roy Hibbert as somebody said. Yes he has overcome difficulties. Yes he is a good example of a young man. And yes, he should be much more dominating with 6 years in the system--he should be averaging 10 and 8 when he has been there that long and is the biggest guy on the floor.  5 and 4 at this point are his capability. Good for him, but let's not get overly drunk on the Kool Aid. His minutes cut Gardner's who should be getting 30 per game. And please don't tell me that Gardner cannot do it. Play Otule 10 to 12 minutes per game. Hope he gets the opening tip which is so all encompassing. And give Gardner the minutes--or play both at the same time.

[GGGG]

Yeah, I do. Do you? The love for Otule is simply more Kool Aid slurping. Yes, he has had injuries. Yes he is the biggest guy on the floor in almost every game. Yes, he is the next Roy Hibbert as somebody said. Yes he has overcome difficulties. Yes he is a good example of a young man. And yes, he should be much more dominating with 6 years in the system--he should be averaging 10 and 8 when he has been there that long and is the biggest guy on the floor.  5 and 4 at this point are his capability. Good for him, but let's not get overly drunk on the Kool Aid. His minutes cut Gardner's who should be getting 30 per game. And please don't tell me that Gardner cannot do it. Play Otule 10 to 12 minutes per game. Hope he gets the opening tip which is so all encompassing. And give Gardner the minutes--or play both at the same time.

So why do you think Buzz isn't giving Gardner 30 mpg?

[willie warrior]

Otule is what he is:  Half of a nice combo at the 5 with Gardner.

Seriously, man, do you need a hug or something?  It's not like this is the end of the Mike Deane era or anything.

Maybe 25% of that nice combo you refer to. The rest of what you said does not compute.

[Lennys Tap]

Chris had a very poor game against Southern. So did Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson and Jake Thomas. And (as probably should be expected) the freshmen looked like freshmen. If all those guys (and Derrick) don't play better we'll be in big trouble this year. Given Buzz's track record I don't expect that to happen.

On the plus side, I thought our on ball defense was outstanding and that includes the freshmen. Southern was forced into a ton of difficult shots. 33 and 23 made some tough, contested 3s just to get them into the 50s.

[brewcity77]

Yeah, I do. Do you? The love for Otule is simply more Kool Aid slurping. Yes, he has had injuries. Yes he is the biggest guy on the floor in almost every game. Yes, he is the next Roy Hibbert as somebody said. Yes he has overcome difficulties. Yes he is a good example of a young man. And yes, he should be much more dominating with 6 years in the system--he should be averaging 10 and 8 when he has been there that long and is the biggest guy on the floor.  5 and 4 at this point are his capability. Good for him, but let's not get overly drunk on the Kool Aid. His minutes cut Gardner's who should be getting 30 per game. And please don't tell me that Gardner cannot do it. Play Otule 10 to 12 minutes per game. Hope he gets the opening tip which is so all encompassing. And give Gardner the minutes--or play both at the same time.

Okay, you are overly obsessed with this "next Roy Hibbert" thing. I have no idea who said it, certainly wasn't me.

But have you ever actually looked at CO's numbers? In the past 3 seasons, he has played 80 games, averaging 17.6 minutes. Largely because Davante has been able to take some of those, but regardless, 17.6 minutes. He has also averaged a very consistent 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg. If you think he should be getting 10/8, maybe the answer is to cut Davante's minutes. After all, if CO played 35.2 minutes, extrapolation would tell us he would average 10.2 ppg and 7.4 rpg, almost exactly on your expectations. None of this is Kool-Aid, Otule projects to get almost exactly what you want if he plays minutes on par with what guys like Vander, JFB, Jerel, Jae, and DJO have received in recent years. Clearly 10/8 IS[/i] his capability but he's not getting there because the staff his hamstringing him by cutting his minutes.

End of the day, Buzz has forgotten more about basketball than you and I combined could ever hope to know. He knows where Gardner is his most effective, and he knows where CO is his most effective. He knows who is the better offensive player and who is the better defender. And he balances them in such a way that we have won over 70% of the games (54-23) when both have been available leading to Buzz balancing those minutes. 21 of the 23 losses have been to tournament-bound teams, so it's not like we're getting beat by scrubs because of the balancing act he's done either.

[The Process]

Maybe 25% of that nice combo you refer to. The rest of what you said does not compute.

Sadly, I think the problem is on your end. Can you ever just look at what we have versus what we had in the past? This is better than the vast majority of the recent past.

[bilsu]

Dawson had one turnover, when he fell to the floor breaking the press.  D. Wilson had two turnovers, one of which was him just throwing it into the stands.  Moreover, as opposed to letting Dawson try to break the press, Wilson wasn't even asked to help the press break.

Not a narrative, just the facts.  To say that Derrick standing on the opposite end of the court did something to help the press break is absurd.  Put the same roster in with Dawson standing in the same spot and nothing changes.

I may be over-exaggerating how bad D. Wilson was, but you are over-exaggerating that he was "fine"...the reality is neither right now is capable of taking this team on a deep run.  I would like to see Mayo get more of a chance at pg.

1 turnover in 9 minutes is not better than 2 turnovers in 31 minutes. Maybe they did not press Derrick, because they did not expect him to turn it over. I suspect without looking that there were very few, if any, games that Cadougan did not have less than 3 turnovers a game last year.

[brewcity77]

1 turnover in 9 minutes is not better than 2 turnovers in 31 minutes. Maybe they did not press Derrick, because they did not expect him to turn it over. I suspect without looking that there were very few, if any, games that Cadougan did not have less than 3 turnovers a game last year.

It was actually a razor-sharp margin. 18 times he had 2 or less turnovers, 17 times he had 3 or more turnovers. It's easier to remember the bad though because of when they occurred. 5 turnovers in losses to Green Bay and Villanova, 4 turnovers in losses to Louisville and Georgetown. Junior averaged 3.4 turnovers in losses and 2.2 turnovers in wins.

After January 1 the importance of Cadougan's turnovers became very pronounced. In games with 2 or less turnovers, we were 12-1. In games with 3 or more turnovers, we were 5-5.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

End of the day, Buzz has forgotten more about basketball than you and I combined could ever hope to know.

+1000. A lesson most of us, myself included, often forget.

[willie warrior]

Sadly, I think the problem is on your end. Can you ever just look at what we have versus what we had in the past? This is better than the vast majority of the recent past.

Sorry Awesome. I do look at what we have now. Where have I been posting about what we had in the past, other than referring to respect for certain past players? When I look at what we have now, I want to improve upon that for the future. I guess maybe you have a problem on your end if you find that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing. It is nice to have goals to improve, although some think that if one sets goals for higher aspirations then one can set themselves up for a letdown. I do not believe that.

[willie warrior]

Okay, you are overly obsessed with this "next Roy Hibbert" thing. I have no idea who said it, certainly wasn't me.

But have you ever actually looked at CO's numbers? In the past 3 seasons, he has played 80 games, averaging 17.6 minutes. Largely because Davante has been able to take some of those, but regardless, 17.6 minutes. He has also averaged a very consistent 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg. If you think he should be getting 10/8, maybe the answer is to cut Davante's minutes. After all, if CO played 35.2 minutes, extrapolation would tell us he would average 10.2 ppg and 7.4 rpg, almost exactly on your expectations. None of this is Kool-Aid, Otule projects to get almost exactly what you want if he plays minutes on par with what guys like Vander, JFB, Jerel, Jae, and DJO have received in recent years. Clearly 10/8 IS[/i] his capability but he's not getting there because the staff his hamstringing him by cutting his minutes.

End of the day, Buzz has forgotten more about basketball than you and I combined could ever hope to know. He knows where Gardner is his most effective, and he knows where CO is his most effective. He knows who is the better offensive player and who is the better defender. And he balances them in such a way that we have won over 70% of the games (54-23) when both have been available leading to Buzz balancing those minutes. 21 of the 23 losses have been to tournament-bound teams, so it's not like we're getting beat by scrubs because of the balancing act he's done either.

Man that is one long winded argument--but yeah, you have convinced everybody. Give Otule Gardner's minutes and see how that works out for you. By the way, using your logic in reverse, give Gardner Otule's minutes and without doing the math, Otule would average about 20 and 9. But then we would possibly lose some opening tips. That would be catastrophic.
And I am glad that you are Buzz's closet analyst, knowing what Buzz has forgotten "at the end of the day". Now there is one overused cliché.

[NersEllenson]

So why do you think Buzz isn't giving Gardner 30 mpg?

What would you put Gardner's optimum minute usage at Sultan?  I feel he can go a strong 27 minutes per game and that there not be a point of diminishing returns set in...perhaps even as many as 29...

[dgies9156]

Ok guys, wake up.

1) It was the first game of the season. If anything, Buzz is experimenting to see what line-ups gel and what works.

2) We have a new team this year which includes lots of freshmen. There's going to be mistakes and it's going to look ugly at times.

3) When one of Buzz's predecessors (I won't say who) kept rotating the line-up in the early season, I used to go crazy because there would be three new guys just as the team on the floor found a rhythm. But with Buzz, I feel like he is still exploring the curve and seeing where things end up.

4) I'll betcha things settle down a bit by Ohio State.

5) Southern was a very mediocre team.

6) I still think we're on the verge of something special! Mayo was very encouraging.

[The Process]

Sorry Awesome. I do look at what we have now. Where have I been posting about what we had in the past, other than referring to respect for certain past players? When I look at what we have now, I want to improve upon that for the future. I guess maybe you have a problem on your end if you find that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing. It is nice to have goals to improve, although some think that if one sets goals for higher aspirations then one can set themselves up for a letdown. I do not believe that.

1.  The program is moving in the right direction with regards to developing bigs.  You may poo poo Otule all you want, but he's substantially better than what we've had in the post in recent years (Gardner obviously excluded).
2.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I never said that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing.  We all want to continually improve.  As fans of MU, we want that for the team that we support.  Implying otherwise is dishonest.
3.  Improvement is not an overnight thing.  Getting the attention of the bigs that will be immediate impact players and getting them to commit takes time.

[GGGG]

Man that is one long winded argument--but yeah, you have convinced everybody. Give Otule Gardner's minutes and see how that works out for you. By the way, using your logic in reverse, give Gardner Otule's minutes and without doing the math, Otule would average about 20 and 9. But then we would possibly lose some opening tips. That would be catastrophic.
And I am glad that you are Buzz's closet analyst, knowing what Buzz has forgotten "at the end of the day". Now there is one overused cliché.

Are you going to answer my question?

Why do you think that Buzz isn't giving Gardner more minutes?

[brewcity77]

Give Otule Gardner's minutes and see how that works out for you. By the way, using your logic in reverse, give Gardner Otule's minutes and without doing the math, Otule would average about 20 and 9.

I don't want to take minutes away from Gardner. I was merely illustrating that what you want Otule to be he already is, but because you are so myopic in your hatred of big men that play at Marquette, you don't realize it.

I also don't want to take minutes away from Otule. I think Otule playing around 16 minutes is ideal. Gardner playing around 24 minutes is ideal. It saves Gardner from getting too tired or becoming too much of a defensive liability, and it lets Otule put his defensive presence in enough that the other team is at least conscious of our post presence on the defensive end.

People get way too obsessed with numbers. The only numbers that really matter are wins and losses. The CO/DG two-headed monster works and we've seen it for years. But neither CO nor DG is really a complete player. We need both to establish ourselves at both ends of the court. I wish we had a senior center that had the attributes of both CO and DG. But if we did, he would have been a lottery pick 2 years ago, so I'm content with what we have, which is without a doubt the best big man tandem we've seen at Marquette since McIlvaine and McCaskill.

[willie warrior]

1.  The program is moving in the right direction with regards to developing bigs.  You may poo poo Otule all you want, but he's substantially better than what we've had in the post in recent years (Gardner obviously excluded).
2.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I never said that wanting to improve in the future is a bad thing.  We all want to continually improve.  As fans of MU, we want that for the team that we support.  Implying otherwise is dishonest.
3.  Improvement is not an overnight thing.  Getting the attention of the bigs that will be immediate impact players and getting them to commit takes time.

And how much time will that take to get their attention? Three years, 5 years, Moses' lifetime? isn't this Buzz's 6th year? Three straight sweet 16's should have gotten some attention. The only quality big/switchable we are still in on is Stone--will we land him?
By the way, I did not put words in your mouth, just like you did not put them in my mouth. I said "if you find" and "maybe". Please read, and do not jump to wild conclusions.