HBO Real Sports/Marist Poll About Concussions In Football

[ChicosBailBonds]

Saw it, curious why the story didn't address the scientific community consensus.  Imagine, for a second, if a global warming story didn't bring up the scientific consensus...interesting.   

[Hards Alumni]

sorry, not taking that bait.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hopefully we will have enough doctors in the future to treat all of this stuff, not looking promising though not that it wasn't warned it would happen.  It's going to be awesome.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-04/lifestyle/sns-rt-us-doctor-demand-20131104_1_more-primary-care-providers-health-insurance-reuters-health

[Hards Alumni]

Hopefully we will have enough doctors in the future to treat all of this stuff, not looking promising though not that it wasn't warned it would happen.  It's going to be awesome.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-11-04/lifestyle/sns-rt-us-doctor-demand-20131104_1_more-primary-care-providers-health-insurance-reuters-health

That either.  Mind staying on topic?

[Lennys Tap]

A lot of people can't wait to blame something, cash in, etc, when they were going to get something anyway.  People get lung cancer that never smoke a day in their lives.  There are people that smoke very little and get lung cancer and will blame it on smoking, but were they predisposed to get it anyway?  How many other things did these guys with CTE do that could have also contributed?

Those are all fair questions, but I think a lot of people just want a real easy answer, all wrapped up in a bow.

Some people (probably most people) who smoke don't get lung cancer. Some people who don't smoke do. Some people who are morbidly obese live long lives. Some people who are in terrific physical shape die young while exercising. Exceptions to every rule. You want to throw common sense out the window and hope you'll be one of the exceptions? Fine. Sit on your ass, smoke a couple of packs a day and feed your face constantly. Good luck with that. And every couple of hours, drag your butt off the couch and bang your head against the wall for a minute or two. Since there's no definitive scientific evidence that it's harmful, why not?

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365113186/

Start watching at the 44:30 mark for the portion on concussions... though the whole program was pretty neat.

My bad...I thought you were referencing the PBS League of Denial video.  My apologies. 

I had an issue with that PBS production on League of Denial because it didn't address what the medical community is saying as a consensus about CTE, etc, yet when it suits them (PBS) they will go to the scientific "consensus" on other issues.  Seems a bit skewed, or lacking if it were.

I went to your video attached, actually had seen this one as well.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That either.  Mind staying on topic?

It's on topic....all these injuries....who is going to take care of them with the impending doctor shortage that we are willfully creating in this country?  Definitely on topic. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Some people (probably most people) who smoke don't get lung cancer. Some people who don't smoke do. Some people who are morbidly obese live long lives. Some people who are in terrific physical shape die young while exercising. Exceptions to every rule. You want to throw common sense out the window and hope you'll be one of the exceptions? Fine. Sit on your ass, smoke a couple of packs a day and feed your face constantly. Good luck with that. And every couple of hours, drag your butt off the couch and bang your head against the wall for a minute or two. Since there's no definitive scientific evidence that it's harmful, why not?

You can argue that about everything.  Drink too much Coca-Cola, die.  Did you know you can die by drinking too much water?    Everything has risks, everything.  And here's the money shot....WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. 

All of us, every single one of us.  We are going to die of something.  Not if, but when.

But people want to assign blame to something, despite the fact we are all going to die.  Now, of course if you are injecting poisons into your body, you elevate that risk.  Same with your smoking example, or drinking, or jumping out of airplanes for a living.  The risks go up.  My problem with a lot of this stuff is how many of these folks were going to get that disease anyway?  How many smokers were going to get lung cancer regardless if they smoked....yet the blame is all on the tobacco industry? 

Just wait until companies like HP, Samsung, Dell, etc are sued into oblivion because of "damage" caused by computer monitors.  Think I am joking, it's on the way.  At the end of the day, you need an entity with big pockets, a lot of lawyers and the magic begins.

[jesmu84]

It's on topic....all these injuries....who is going to take care of them with the impending doctor shortage that we are willfully creating in this country?  Definitely on topic. 

Support your midlevel providers and advocate for legislation supporting them.

Sincerely,
Current PA student

[4everwarriors]

Doesn't have to be football. Larry Sanders can start off a concussion just by crackin' champagne bottles off some ass whole in bar fight.

[Silkk the Shaka]

All of this is irrelevant. Just follow the $$$. Chicos' company gave a bloated long-term contract to the NFL, ergo fan interest can never wane and CTE is a myth.

[GGGG]

It's on topic....all these injuries....who is going to take care of them with the impending doctor shortage that we are willfully creating in this country?  Definitely on topic. 

Will you just stop?  Seriously this is just another talking point that is wrapped in language an political bullsh*t, when in truth it is much more nuanced.

**The shortage of primary care physicians existed prior to ACA - simply put primary care is not a very lucrative field that has been beaten to death by insurance companies for years.

**This shortage is going to be exacerbated because more people will have insurance and will therefore be going to the doctor.  I'm not sure that is a bad thing.  People should go to the doctor.

It would be like going back to 1910 and proclaiming that we should stop manufacturing cars because we are creating a shortage of mechanics.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

You can argue that about everything.  Drink too much Coca-Cola, die.  Did you know you can die by drinking too much water?    Everything has risks, everything.  And here's the money shot....WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. 

All of us, every single one of us.  We are going to die of something.  Not if, but when.

But people want to assign blame to something, despite the fact we are all going to die.  Now, of course if you are injecting poisons into your body, you elevate that risk.  Same with your smoking example, or drinking, or jumping out of airplanes for a living.  The risks go up.  My problem with a lot of this stuff is how many of these folks were going to get that disease anyway?  How many smokers were going to get lung cancer regardless if they smoked....yet the blame is all on the tobacco industry? 

Just wait until companies like HP, Samsung, Dell, etc are sued into oblivion because of "damage" caused by computer monitors.  Think I am joking, it's on the way.  At the end of the day, you need an entity with big pockets, a lot of lawyers and the magic begins.

In " Physics of the future". Kaku says we may actually be the last generation to die

[ChicosBailBonds]

Support your midlevel providers and advocate for legislation supporting them.

Sincerely,
Current PA student

I'd love to.  Unfortunately some of our docs are retiring early, they aren't hanging around for the nonsense.  They aren't alone.  Maybe we can have nurses do the concussion tests moving forward since they have recently been granted the ability to do all kinds of other stuff that used to be doctor certified.

[jesmu84]

I'd love to.  Unfortunately some of our docs are retiring early, they aren't hanging around for the nonsense.  They aren't alone.  Maybe we can have nurses do the concussion tests moving forward since they have recently been granted the ability to do all kinds of other stuff that used to be doctor certified.

IMO, most of those docs not "hanging around for the nonsense", are getting out because they aren't going to see the financial gains they thought they would. IMO, again, healthcare providers have been making too much for far too long - a lot of people went to med school simply for the money and not because of the care they wanted to provide. The world they knew is coming crashing down. And it should. Physicians didn't originate as a wealthy profession; those aren't the roots.

*If you're going to say physicians need to get paid to cover the expenses required to become MDs, that's a whole separate discussion about tuition, lawsuits, etc.

[brandx]

Some people (probably most people) who smoke don't get lung cancer. Some people who don't smoke do. Some people who are morbidly obese live long lives. Some people who are in terrific physical shape die young while exercising. Exceptions to every rule. You want to throw common sense out the window and hope you'll be one of the exceptions? Fine. Sit on your ass, smoke a couple of packs a day and feed your face constantly. Good luck with that. And every couple of hours, drag your butt off the couch and bang your head against the wall for a minute or two. Since there's no definitive scientific evidence that it's harmful, why not?

+1

[brandx]

It's on topic....all these injuries....who is going to take care of them with the impending doctor shortage that we are willfully creating in this country?  Definitely on topic. 

Oops off topic again.

If we were only willing to let more sick people die, doctors would have more free time to treat patients 

[brandx]

Oops off topic again.

If we were only willing to let more sick people die, doctors would have more free time to treat patients 

Back on topic - I take the work of scientists who have studied CTE for decades in both boxers and football players over one guy from Loyola (funded by Big Pharma) who did one study.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Back on topic - I take the work of scientists who have studied CTE for decades in both boxers and football players over one guy from Loyola (funded by Big Pharma) who did one study.

Actually, it's not one guy as I have provided a few other articles.  I also provided the response from the International Conference on Concussion in Sport. 


More research is needed, in the meantime it's always good to have a deep pocketed someone to blame for the lawyers and others to try to milk $$ from.  It's America Baby. 

Let's not forget that CTE cannot be diagnosed until death with a full cross section of the brain.  It's interesting to me how these CTE diagnosis are happening on live people now.   Someday they may be able to and work is progressing to get there, but they cannot today. 

[Lennys Tap]

My problem with a lot of this stuff is how many of these folks were going to get that disease anyway?  How many smokers were going to get lung cancer regardless if they smoked....yet the blame is all on the tobacco.

How many? Not many. Only about 20% of the people in this country smoke, but more than 80% of those who get lung cancer do. Lung cancer is the most deadly AND most preventable disease out there.

[forgetful]

I'd add this....

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/10/fear-of-cte-may-be-unnecessarily-freaking-out-football-players/

Dr. McCarthy points out that, regardless of whether football players are determined to have CTE, the connection to concussions still has not been established by the scientific community:  "At the 4th International Conference on Concussion in Sport . . . world experts gathered to discuss the state of head-trauma science.  At the end of the conference, a consensus statement was released that said the following:  'A cause and effect relationship has not as yet been demonstrated between CTE and concussions or exposure to contact sports.'

"The statement runs counter to almost everything you have read about CTE, but it received virtually no media attention in the United States when it was released," Dr. McCarthy explains.  "In part, that's because it speaks to the far higher burden of proof in the scientific community than the one in the public consciousness.  But that's the point.  The popular consensus has far outstripped the science."

So until recently we have not been able to image Tau fibrils within the brain of living individuals.  Thus it is impossible to make a cause and effect relationship, as you would require images before and after participation in contact sports.  For that matter a cause and effect relationship will never be constructed, because of the impossibility of the task...there is no definitive experiment to prove cause and effect.

That is far from there being no definitive proof that concussions and contact sports lead to brain trauma and degenerative brain diseases.  There is sound evidence to support that.  Further, there is sound evidence that the presence of Tau fibrils is associated with neurodegenerative disorders.  The new experiments show a higher incidence of tau fibrils in athletes exposed to head trauma.  The correlation is statistically relevant indicating that concussions and contact sports lead to tau fibrils and thus neurodegenerative disorders, but cause and effect can not be shown.

Your quote from a conference consensus is really not relevant as few things have been shown to have a definitive cause and effect relationship in medicine/biology, the systems are just too complex to control all variables besides the inducing event. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

How many? Not many. Only about 20% of the people in this country smoke, but more than 80% of those who get lung cancer do. Lung cancer is the most deadly AND most preventable disease out there.

I thought it was Syphilis...just keep your johnson in your pants and it is 100% preventable. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

So until recently we have not been able to image Tau fibrils within the brain of living individuals.  Thus it is impossible to make a cause and effect relationship, as you would require images before and after participation in contact sports.  For that matter a cause and effect relationship will never be constructed, because of the impossibility of the task...there is no definitive experiment to prove cause and effect.

That is far from there being no definitive proof that concussions and contact sports lead to brain trauma and degenerative brain diseases.  There is sound evidence to support that.  Further, there is sound evidence that the presence of Tau fibrils is associated with neurodegenerative disorders.  The new experiments show a higher incidence of tau fibrils in athletes exposed to head trauma. The correlation is statistically relevant indicating that concussions and contact sports lead to tau fibrils and thus neurodegenerative disorders, but cause and effect can not be shown.

Your quote from a conference consensus is really not relevant as few things have been shown to have a definitive cause and effect relationship in medicine/biology, the systems are just too complex to control all variables besides the inducing event.  

Source?  The latest study, in fact, shows no statistically significant difference between the athlete population and the general population.  That may change, but that is the situation right now.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the other stuff, but merely pointing out that more research needs to be done and the scientific community is going to require a bit more evidence than our wonderful media types and many of the chicken littles out there....thankfully.  The scientific community isn't there on this issue yet.

Oh, and WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE.    


I'm sure you would also agree, then, that since CTE cannot be tested in a living human being a story like this from CBS (the headline) is just poor journalism and a lot of less educated people will just believe it to be true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57611388/cte-diagnosed-in-hall-of-famer-tony-dorsett-two-other-living-nfl-players-report/

[Hards Alumni]

Source?  The latest study, in fact, shows no statistically significant difference between the athlete population and the general population.  That may change, but that is the situation right now.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the other stuff, but merely pointing out that more research needs to be done and the scientific community is going to require a bit more evidence than our wonderful media types and many of the chicken littles out there....thankfully.  The scientific community isn't there on this issue yet.

Oh, and WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE.    


I'm sure you would also agree, then, that since CTE cannot be tested in a living human being a story like this from CBS (the headline) is just poor journalism and a lot of less educated people will just believe it to be true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57611388/cte-diagnosed-in-hall-of-famer-tony-dorsett-two-other-living-nfl-players-report/

You really like to play fast and loose with the facts, don't you?  Scientific consensus isn't established at 100%.  Just ask any scientist.

[ChicosBailBonds]

IMO, most of those docs not "hanging around for the nonsense", are getting out because they aren't going to see the financial gains they thought they would. IMO, again, healthcare providers have been making too much for far too long - a lot of people went to med school simply for the money and not because of the care they wanted to provide. The world they knew is coming crashing down. And it should. Physicians didn't originate as a wealthy profession; those aren't the roots.

*If you're going to say physicians need to get paid to cover the expenses required to become MDs, that's a whole separate discussion about tuition, lawsuits, etc.

Yup, a lot did go for the money.   So as make it less and less of a desired job, where are the smart and talented people going to go....medicine?  LOL.   

Nothing like lowering the standard of care across the board.  What a deal.  Our race to the bottom in some of the things we do is awesome.